The Last Dance Thread

Granada

Well-known member
Joined:
Oct 14, 2019
Posts:
11,439
Liked Posts:
2,667
all episodes 9 and 10 did for me was reaffirm how much I despised the Pacers and Jazz then. I mean I got other things from it, but you know, those stick out. the Jordan/Bird exchange after the Pacers series was brilliant.

it's funny I said I wanted to see game 6 in its entirety and now I may have a chance to see it? we cut off our cable, so I would need to see it not-live.

Yes it certainly reminded me how much I hated Reggie Miller, John Starks, Bill Lambeer, Isiah Thomas, and Spike Lee (in particular)
 

JimJohnson

Well-known member
Joined:
May 31, 2014
Posts:
5,190
Liked Posts:
913
I really enjoyed this documentary, but I got to say: in the end, it's really just one person's word against the other; and in some cases, you really don't know who to believe. On one hand, you have Reinsdorf explaining how he offered Phil to come back for one more year; but then you have Jordan basically calling BS on that, and stating that if the org offered the big guns one-year contracts, Phil and all of them would have been back.

Basically, you had guys simply trying to put a positive spin on a lot of things -- like Isiah with the handshake, Jordan with the push-off on the last shot (I agree with Jordan by the way). You had Grant saying he never talked to reporters. I guess my point is, in some instances, I still don't really know who to believe.

In this one thing, I believe Reinsdorf did invite Phil back for one more year. Reinsdorf just doesn't come across like a liar to me. Phil was probably burnt out and without any reassurances of which players were coming back, just decided to take a break. But I also believe Jordan that the Bulls could have found a way to get Pippen back for another go, even if it meant perhaps losing a few role players.
 

mecha

Well-known member
Joined:
Aug 21, 2012
Posts:
13,349
Liked Posts:
9,755
In this one thing, I believe Reinsdorf did invite Phil back for one more year. Reinsdorf just doesn't come across like a liar to me. Phil was probably burnt out and without any reassurances of which players were coming back, just decided to take a break. But I also believe Jordan that the Bulls could have found a way to get Pippen back for another go, even if it meant perhaps losing a few role players.

I don't know why Reinsdorf would want that team split up. it made him money. made the whole NBA money with Jordan.

I would rather the Bulls go out on top the way they did than try again and potentially lose. those guys were already way up in age. though in that strike shortened season with the added and much needed rest, they probably could've pulled it off. maybe.
 

JimJohnson

Well-known member
Joined:
May 31, 2014
Posts:
5,190
Liked Posts:
913
I don't know why Reinsdorf would want that team split up. it made him money. made the whole NBA money with Jordan.

I would rather the Bulls go out on top the way they did than try again and potentially lose. those guys were already way up in age. though in that strike shortened season with the added and much needed rest, they probably could've pulled it off. maybe.

Spurs had a beast of a team that year. Would have been interesting to see the Bulls take them on.
 

anotheridiot

Well-known member
Joined:
Jul 15, 2016
Posts:
5,935
Liked Posts:
791
I dont remember who, but somebody said it was better to go out like they did than to do what the celtics did while watching injuries and time catch up with them.
 

Scoot26

Administrator
Staff member
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Jun 25, 2010
Posts:
41,426
Liked Posts:
28,527
I don't know why Reinsdorf would want that team split up. it made him money. made the whole NBA money with Jordan.

I would rather the Bulls go out on top the way they did than try again and potentially lose. those guys were already way up in age. though in that strike shortened season with the added and much needed rest, they probably could've pulled it off. maybe.
So in our reality that season played out strangely, as we all know.. at least in the East...

Miami, Indiana, and Orlando all tied at 33-17 for the #1 seed, but tiebreakers went in that order. the 8th seed was actually only 6 games out of first, so you had a tight compact East compared to what it usually was.

2 out of those 3 were upset in the first round, Miami by the Knicks, and Orlando by the 76ers. Sans Allen Iverson, the East is really lacking in talent that can rise above. Grant Hill, while a good player, couldn't get out of the 1st round. That the Heat team always looked better on paper than in performance. The Magic had Penny, who was a shell of his former self at this point. The Pacers, who had taken the Bulls to Game 7 the year had Reggie, but as we all know they would lose to the 8th seed Knicks in 6 games, in a series that Indiana really looked outmatched despite expectations. Perhaps that played a role, as maybe they felt with Jordan gone, they were destined to make the Finals.

So if you happened to get the Bulls back together for one more year, of course the whole trajectory of the East changes, and I'm sure all the seeds change and what not. Pippen in reality played all 50 games in 99, so he was recovered from any injury, thus could have played all 50 on a hypothetical 99 Bulls team. Maybe in a 50 game season, the Bulls still finish 1st in the East and plow through the conference, given its general lack of superstar talent. But they come up against DRob/Duncan.. which well they just beat Stockton and Malone the prior two years, so who knows what happens there.

Of course this ignores the story that Jordan cut his index finger tendon on a cigar cutter in the summer of 98, and he pretty much took a whole NBA season to recover from that tear. Maybe if he knows he's coming back though, he doesn't fiddle with a cigar cutter.

Personally I've accepted the way it ended, and in a way it was almost too perfect of an ending. From the last shot, to a lockout happening right after, and coming back with that strange shortened season, kinda basically felt like a whole instant shifting of eras, while generally you see a slow gradual fall apart, like we saw in the Celtics.
 

Scoot26

Administrator
Staff member
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Jun 25, 2010
Posts:
41,426
Liked Posts:
28,527
I honestly don't think Reinsdorf or MJ were really lying from their perspectives. Like you said, it was the Krause/Phil thing that had deteriorated so much, there was no way to bring back Phil. Krause killed that with the 82-0 comment in the beginning. Too bad Krause wasn't alive so we could've delved into his side. I still think he was a jag though.
Krause did write about it:
 

Scoot26

Administrator
Staff member
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Jun 25, 2010
Posts:
41,426
Liked Posts:
28,527
Also Reinsdorf's words:
 

Leomaz

Pissing people off the right way!
Donator
Joined:
Jul 15, 2012
Posts:
14,948
Liked Posts:
6,826
Location:
In the stratosphere
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
  1. Indiana Hoosiers
  2. Notre Dame Fighting Irish
Is it true after Jerry Krause uttered the words “ Players and coaches alone don't win championships; organizations win championships.” they didn’t win another championship after that year let alone make the playoffs?
 

Scoot26

Administrator
Staff member
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Jun 25, 2010
Posts:
41,426
Liked Posts:
28,527
Is it true after Jerry Krause uttered the words “ Players and coaches alone don't win championships; organizations win championships.” they didn’t win another championship after that year let alone make the playoffs?
Well given he said that in 1997, and they last won in 1998, and Krause resigned in 2003.. the answer is yes. John Paxson came in with a somewhat different philsophy and the Bulls combined Paxson's players and Krauses's remains to make the playoffs in 2005, and started what was a decent stretch.
 

anotheridiot

Well-known member
Joined:
Jul 15, 2016
Posts:
5,935
Liked Posts:
791
I just did not appreciate the ending. The text on the screen read something about Jordan retired, Rodman released, Scottie Pippen traded, Steve Kerr traded, the Chicago Bulls began a rebuild.

I was waiting for

.......................and have been rebuilding ever since.
 

Scoot26

Administrator
Staff member
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Jun 25, 2010
Posts:
41,426
Liked Posts:
28,527
I just did not appreciate the ending. The text on the screen read something about Jordan retired, Rodman released, Scottie Pippen traded, Steve Kerr traded, the Chicago Bulls began a rebuild.

I was waiting for

.......................and have been rebuilding ever since.
Haha, I was expecting more there, such as "Krause resigned in 2003 without ever making the playoffs again. The Bulls have still not won another championship."
 

Granada

Well-known member
Joined:
Oct 14, 2019
Posts:
11,439
Liked Posts:
2,667
I don't know why Reinsdorf would want that team split up. it made him money. made the whole NBA money with Jordan.

I would rather the Bulls go out on top the way they did than try again and potentially lose. those guys were already way up in age. though in that strike shortened season with the added and much needed rest, they probably could've pulled it off. maybe.

This made no sense to me either. I mean, it was HIS team -- he created it. Why would he want to destroy something he himself created, that was so damn successful -- I still have trouble understanding it. I guess he was just done with all the drama (that he had brought upon himself, particularly by not renegotiating Pippen) and was tired of practically the entire team having zero respect for him; so he convinced himself that the team was done/over-the-hill and that it wasn't worth re-signing them.
 

ijustposthere

Message Board Hero
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Aug 20, 2012
Posts:
34,252
Liked Posts:
26,380
Location:
Any-Town, USA
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
  1. Michigan Wolverines
  2. Purdue Boilermakers

ijustposthere

Message Board Hero
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Aug 20, 2012
Posts:
34,252
Liked Posts:
26,380
Location:
Any-Town, USA
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
  1. Michigan Wolverines
  2. Purdue Boilermakers
Krause did write about it:

Sort of sounds like some revisionist history going on in there. He's making it sound like they didn't have a decision made until the run in 98.
 

Scoot26

Administrator
Staff member
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Jun 25, 2010
Posts:
41,426
Liked Posts:
28,527
Sort of sounds like some revisionist history going on in there. He's making it sound like they didn't have a decision made until the run in 98.
It's just his take with probably some revisions on top... I think it's possible everyone's right and everyone's wrong. Everyone has a different opinion on how things ended. There's probably bits of truths to everyone's takes, and revisions to everyone's take.

I kinda feel like Jordan saying they could have gone for 7 is one of those. Both 3rd championship runs he is quoted and shown to be feeling mentally exhausted.. in 98 he's also physically exhausted. He retired after 93 and retired after 98. He didn't go for 4, and he didn't go for 7.
 

Granada

Well-known member
Joined:
Oct 14, 2019
Posts:
11,439
Liked Posts:
2,667

Interesting. Always two sides to every story. I got to say, some of this sounds pretty legit, with the exception that the guy made the pizza himself under the foresight that one of his co-workers would do something it. Either that part is bull shit, or the fact that the guy was worried enough that one of his co-workers would indeed mess with the pizza somewhat confirms that someone must have done something to it when the guy wasn't around (even though he says the pizza never left his sight).

But the part where there was a cop stationed and that they would never let 4 or 5 guys up -- that all sounds legit to me.

I mentioned this before about this doc, but this is just another thing that you don't know who to believe. Either way, Jordan did get sick (be it intentionally or not) and tore it up the next day regardless, which is the most important part obviously.
 

anotheridiot

Well-known member
Joined:
Jul 15, 2016
Posts:
5,935
Liked Posts:
791
So Krause said that Phil can go 82 and 0 and he was not coming back was because Phil said he was not going back. On the show, Jackson said it was not fair to Krause, who already put his rebuild plans on hold one year to get the team back in 98.
Maybe Phil was just pissed that Jerry blurted out that 82-0 comment, should have been what 97 or 98 and 0 right?
 

Top