The Official T-Mac Thread

[CODE_BLUE56]

Gervin was. And it's not close. Lead the league in scoring 4 times, Was seen as one of the best players in the NBA for nearly a decade, ..etc

I <3 Gervin...my fave oldie Spurs player....Iceman...the Fingerroll...he was alot better than T Mac

West is widely seen as the 2nd or 3rd best SG ever. Again...not close. Monroe you can debate but at his peak he was a pernnial all NBA player and was consistantly one of the top players in the league for the better part of a decade.

Ya T Mac is not even close to West look at the stats lol...Monroe i could see it...he's probably the only one on that list i'd say T Mac is better than

AI>>>>TMac. At AI's peak he was winning scoring titles(4) had another season at 33PPG, won an MVP, and carried a team to the NBA Finals. AI>>>>TMac for a career, at their peaks, whatever.

Agreed again

Havlecik and Berry are two of the best SF's ever. Again, TMac is not in that discussion. Ever.

People really underrate Hav.....he was a bad@$$...and Rick Barry was lights out

Dominique played high level basketball for right around 10 years. Carried a marginal Hawks team past the first round three times and was viewed as one of the best players for numerous seasons.

Him and T Mac have some similarities....but Nique is better....tbh I think Lebron is pretty much a better shooting better passing Dominique

McGrady had 2-3 relly nice seasons then started becoming terribly inefficient as a player/scorer.

Very true even when he was still averaging in the 20s in houston his FG% was awful

I find it hilarious you are saying that HOF'ers aren't as good as TMac when TMac will never..never make the HOF.

ehhhh...i think he will...barely...because of his scoring titles....but he is a low HOFer if you get what im saying he wouldnt be on the next NBA top 50 or anything imo

If some players in the NBA right now stay on current pace TMac will be an after thought of the era. He had a couple good seasons then fell off.

I would say he had some impressive seasons and his stats are decent and worse players have gone into the HOF...i think when it's all said and done in about 20-30 years T Mac will not be mentioned among the greats of that era(Kobe Duncan Lebron(yes) Shaq ?????)



Yeah, I saw it.

*Yawn*

Clyde is an interesting case. I thought about it but 14 seemed like enough. Throw him on there if you want. I'd take the Clyde over TMac any day of the week though.

Ya very interesting case but I like Clyde too....

Oscar was more of a point. As was Magic. If you give me Oscar then Magic gets on the list too and only bumps TMac down more.

yup

Hell, I could have put Pippen on that list if I REALLY wanted to, but didn't because that would spurn a "debate" of sorts that is pointless because Pippen was a better player and even on his own did something only 3 or 4 other players in the NBA have ever done.

Without Jordan, Pippen would have shined even more and would have been an all time great imo...Pippen is one of the most underrated players of all time

No way he ever makes it. He's not the Gale Sayers of the NBA. Again, TMac had 2-3 PLUS seasons then 1 or 2 others that were pretty good. That's not HOF worthy. Plus his HOF number is going to keep goign down assuming he keeps playing for 2-3 more seasons PLUS other players elevating above TMac will bump that number down. At the end of his carerr Carmelo Anthony will have a better shot at the HOF than TMac.

I would agree with Melo...but i think T Mac will make the HOF based on his All star games,scoring titles,total points,scoring avg,etc.
im just curious has a player that has ever lead the league in scoring not been inducted into the HOF(that's already retired)

VC and Grant Hill won't IMO.

Ya i put questions marks around them grant would have easily made it if he hadnt gotten hurt in orlando...VC ehhhhh....

Rondo won't...at least not at this point.

Ya i put some young guys on there i think will shine...Rondo is still pretty young and i think if he can learn how to shoot he will be a monster especially when the big 3 is all but dead

I'm not sold on CP3 making it either. Right now it's debatable who is better between him and Deron Williams IMO.

I think they both make it in at their respective paces. CP3 is better than Deron IMO but CP3 got hurt so Deron took over as the best PG....because when CP3 was healthy he was the best PG imo...but i think Deron has improved and caught up with CP3..we'll just see how they play next season...and im very sold on CP3 making the HOF barring injury

Paul Pierce will be interesting...I can see that one going either way.

He's in

 

[FirstTimer]

Him and T Mac have some similarities....but Nique is better....tbh I think Lebron is pretty much a better shooting better passing Dominique

Lebron is the superior all around player but people tend to forget that 'Nique averaged at or pretty close to 30PPG for the better part of a decade. He was a volume scorer and not much else but was damn good and efficient as hell at it. He didn't have a sseason where he shot under 45% until he was 34 years old.

ehhhh...i think he will...barely...because of his scoring titles

...but he is a low HOFer if you get what im saying he wouldnt be on the next NBA top 50 or anything imo
I would say he had some impressive seasons and his stats are decent and worse players have gone into the HOF.

Yeah but those decent players/worse players had one or both of these things in their favor: They were good for a long period of time with some very good/great seasons sprinkled in, or have multiple championships. TMac has none of those things working in his favor. McGrady had about a 3-4 year peak period, fell off hard(no longevity), and virtually no playoff success.


From the Tribune:

In six games in which his team had a chance to clinch a playoff series — including three Game 7s — McGrady has averaged 26.5 points and 6.3 assists, but has shot 38 percent (56-of-146) overall and 18 percent (6-of-34) on three-point shots.

Plus as we sit here now TMac is a borderline guy, let alone when you start having some of these younger stars putting together longer careers, accumulating stats, awards, etc. TMac's two scoring titles are nice but in the end you're basically looking at a similar case to Bernard King.

TMac may be a bit better overall player, but King had more longevity and for the most part is a really similar player legacy wise.

i think when it's all said and done in about 20-30 years T Mac will not be mentioned among the greats of that era(Kobe Duncan Lebron(yes) Shaq ?????)

Not even in the same paragraph. Let alone sentence.

Without Jordan, Pippen would have shined even more and would have been an all time great imo...Pippen is one of the most underrated players of all time

Those Bulls teams don't win 6 titles with Pippen as "the guy", IMO henever had that mentality. Guy was a hell of a player and a stat compiler though. Just never had that "it" thing that would lead teams to titles. That 1 1/2 year stretch though where Jordan was gone gave you a really good idea of the type of player Pippen was/could have been had Jordan not been around.

I would agree with Melo...but i think T Mac will make the HOF based on his All star games,scoring titles,total points,scoring avg,etc.
im just curious has a player that has ever lead the league in scoring not been inducted into the HOF(that's already retired)

Max Zaslofsy and Bernard King. Most other scoring Champions have been multiple winners for longer periods of time or had long careers in general so we can't really hold TMac to that standard of multiple scoring title guy like we would with others..because he basically accomplished nothing else. Every other scoring title winner that has made the HOF is pretty much some combination of the following: a multiple winner, has rings, playoff success, long career etc. TMac is the exception in that he won a couple scoring titles then dropped off and started getting hurt.


I mean you're dealing with a situation where you have a guy in McGrady who was very good/great for 2 seasons. Good for another two..then basically he became an ineffcient volume scorer...and his avergae wasn't incredibly high. It sucks he got hurt, and obviously there is the "what if" question but when judging the HOF inclusion you cn't judge what if. You have to judge what actually was. TMac doesn't really pass that test IMO.

You left Wade off your list and I think Wade easily makes the HOF over TMac.

TMac's career isn't going to begin looking any better in retrospect as we move forward. He'll be a "what if guy" but not a HOF guy

He's in

I'm not so sure. One ring. Long career. No MVP's. No scoring titles. Some All Star teams, a few 2nd and 3rd All NBA teams. It will be close. I'm not sure if he will get in but it will be interesting to say the least.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Yeah, I'll give you Pippen. But the fact you guys have Iverson over T-Mac is suspect. That's one thing I definitely disagree with... in their primes too? I agree that Iverson might be the best talent the NBA has seen inch-for-inch/lb-for-lb... but I just disagree you can take AI over McGrady.

And I've never seen tape of Gervin/Havicek/West do the things that McGrady could.

 

[Scoot26]

What's with the epically long posts on this thread?

 

[JCM]

What's with the epically long posts on this thread?

there battling it out to see who can post the longest post.

 

[FirstTimer]

Yeah, I'll give you Pippen.

Of course you would...

But the fact you guys have Iverson over T-Mac is suspect.

No it's not.

Iverson at "peak" 4 scoring titles, another seasons at 33PPG. An MVP and leading a trash Philly team to the Finals. 3 All NBA 1st teams

McGrady at "peak": 2 scoring titles. 2 All NBA first teams

There's not a thing "suspect" about it.

Iverson was a better player for TMac, both at their peaks, and over a longer period of time.

And I've never seen tape of Gervin/Havicek/West do the things that McGrady could.

This isn't a discussion of who the better "athlete" is. It's a discussion of who the better basketball player is. Gervin/Havlecik/West were far and away better basketball players it's not even a discussion.

I find it hilarious you are still on this kick about Gervin/Havlecik/West when:



Gervin won twice as many scoring titles as McGrady, got past the 1st round of the playoffs and played high level basketball for a decade or more, made 5 All NBA first teams and is widely seen as an icon player. 12 time All Star 2nd in the MVP voting for two seasons

Havlecik made 13 All Star games, won 8 titles, made 4 NBA first teams, 5 NBA defensive 1st teams, and is seen as one of the top 5 small forwards to ever play the game.

Jerry West, 14 All Star Games, 1 Ring, 10 All NBA First teams, 3 All NBA Defensive 1st teams, NBA Finals MVP, finished 2nd in the MVP voting 4 times, 4 years over 30PPG and before this guy named Jordan came along he was far and away the best shooting guard to ever play the game. Jordan has passed him and many say Kobe has as well but that's still damn good guy to be passed by.

On top of all of this these above guy are Hall of Famer's something that McGrady most likely will never accomplish. You're comparing McGrady as a basketball player to three guys that are in the discussion as some of the best to ever play their position when McGrady isn't anywhere near the top of that conversation and on any list is an after thought and maybe gets an honerable mention with a vote or two for a top 10 list.

McGrady: 2 scoring titles. 7 All Star games, a Most Improved player award(lulz), 2 All NBA first teams. No top 2 or 3 in the MVP voting. Wow...impressed......

But because you can't find "film" of West/Gervin/Hondo dunking over Shawn Bradley or pulling a Rodney Rogers you honestly think they aren't better than TMac. Really?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

^You just named me a lot of subjective awards, man. McGrady in his prime was extremely dominant... You're going to have a hard time convincing me that they were overall better players. I'm not even disrespecting them... I'm just giving that much respect to McGrady. Iverson in his prime, or McGrady in his? Have to go with McGrady. That's one thing in my mind that won't change.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Fantasy Basketball Breaking News - Rotoworld.com

I'm surprised that McGrady still seems to be a possibility... I guess the Bulls liked what they saw last Monday and still are interested in signing him to at least a partially non-guaranteed deal... despite the stubborness about not coming off the bench all season.

 

[FirstTimer]

You just named me a lot of subjective awards, man.

Yeah because clearly guys like MJ, Pippen, etc never won any subjective awards that catapult them above and beyond other people. Hell, on "objective" things like stats there is no way that you should have ever given me Pippen over TMac seeing as Pippen in his prime only played a season and a half by himself.

You want to ***** about "subjective" stats now but if a Kobe vs Jordan convo came up you'd be the first to rattle off awards etc

McGrady in his prime was extremely dominant...

Not dominant enough obviously as people don't view him as being as good as numerous other player in their prime. TMac wasn't even better than Iverson in their respective primes, let alone Jerry West, George Gervin, or Hondo.
Objectivley Iverson won twice as many scoring titles and carried his team to the NBA Finals. TMac isn't better than Iverson. Let alone three HOF'ers.

Just quit. Honestly, you're making yourself look ridiculous.

You're going to have a hard time convincing me that they were overall better players.

Which is one of the saddest things I've ever read on here. And that's saying a lot seeing as I've read waldo's posts.

Iverson in his prime, or McGrady in his? Have to go with McGrady. That's one thing in my mind that won't change.

Absolutley beyond ridiculous.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I see a lot of opinions, man. Obviously we aren't going to agree.

But honestly, if it was a Kobe-Jordan debate, I see beyond the Finals MVP Awards, DPOY, All-1st/2nd/3rd/Def team awards. Jordan was flat-out better than Bryant (especially on the defensive side) - with the exception of long-range shooting.

 

[FirstTimer]

I see a lot of opinions, man. Obviously we aren't going to agree.

Yeah, because clearly I'm like the only person alive who think that George Gervin, Allen Iverson, Hondo, and Jerry FUCKING West are better than Tracy McGrady.

You're an absolute fucking clown..

But honestly, if it was a Kobe-Jordan debate, I see beyond the Finals MVP Awards, DPOY, All-1st/2nd/3rd/Def team awards. Jordan was flat-out better than Bryant (especially on the defensive side) - with the exception of long-range shooting.

Yeah I'll remember this......

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

You sure are name-calling a lot and getting all mad-ish for talking to someone who is an "absolute fucking clown."

And the only times you'll ever hear me bring up subjective awards in a Jordan-Bryant debate will be in reference to how the masses of NBA fans will observe the two.

i.e. those people who say 'oh no Kobe has 6/7 titles. People are going to think he's as good as Jordan.' And then I'm going to say..

'No those same people who look at Bryant's rings will also look at Jordan's 6 Finals MVPs/5 season MVPs/other subjective honors, and will dismiss Bryant in that arguement based on that.'

 

[FirstTimer]

You sure are name-calling a lot and getting all mad-ish for talking to someone who is an "absolute fucking clown."

A lot?

How many times have I in this thread? Like twice?

And the only times you'll ever hear me bring up subjective awards in a Jordan-Bryant debate will be in reference to how the masses of NBA fans will observe the two.

Yeah because the fans are the ones voting for MVP's ALL NBA awards etc.

Are you fucking serious with this shit?

.

'No those same people who look at Bryant's rings will also look at Jordan's 6 Finals MVPs/5 season MVPs/other subjective honors, and will dismiss Bryant in that arguement based on that.'

Well that's good to know you can dismiss Bryant based on subjective awards but when discussing McGrady versus Jerry West, Gervin, Hondo, or AI it boils down to None of that have ever dunked over Shawn Bradley, or gone Rodney Rogers on anyone.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Yeah because the fans are the ones voting for MVP's ALL NBA awards etc.

That has nothing to do with anything... just because the fans have practically 0% of the MVP vote and don't vote for All-NBA awards at all, doesn't mean that they don't take MVPs/1st team honors into heavy consideration when comparing two players...

 

[FirstTimer]

That has nothing to do with anything... just because the fans have practically 0% of the MVP vote and don't vote for All-NBA awards at all, doesn't mean that they don't take MVPs/1st team honors into heavy consideration when comparing two players...

Actually it has everything to do with everything. NBA fans hold those awards in higher esteem than All Star games because it's not based on (sometimes) ridiculous fan voting. You can try and label them subjective all you want but at the end of the day I will more than side with NBA writers, experts, etc who pick those teams/awards. It's a damn good barometer of how highly that player was regarded in certain aspects of the game, in his era, against his peers, and for how long. You can label them "subjective" all you want to try and diminish them based on that but it's laughable that you try and discredit Jerry West's 10 All NBA first team awards because they are "subjective" but then argue you haven't "seen them do things McGrady has" as a rationale for McGrady being better.

You want "objective" views of the situation....then I give you one in regards to Iverson vs TMac and you ignore it and still say TMac was better based on virtually nothing.

You can't even form a coherent or consistent point/argument. It's fucking hilarious.

 

[bkniceley]

i just joined, so im late to the discussion but bulls should totally get tmac. He would be great for the team and im sure give the team another 'star' player to help out. tmac aint what he use to be but hes still awesome. as long as the injuries dont happen i think he would do just fine.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

i cant see how all NBA teams and MVPs are "subjective" as FT said its not the fans who are voting for this crap..these are people who know the game...the experts,writers,etc.

now do they make mistakes? Yes they are human....but i think they do a pretty damn good job in choosing players for MVP or all nba

All star appearances is a different story but you're trying to argue that all NBA teams and MVPs are subjective....and they really aren't

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Lebron is the superior all around player but people tend to forget that 'Nique averaged at or pretty close to 30PPG for the better part of a decade. He was a volume scorer and not much else but was damn good and efficient as hell at it. He didn't have a sseason where he shot under 45% until he was 34 years old.

I know Nique is a very good player but lebron is even better people forget how good lebron really is because they are caught up in their blind hate for him and not winning any rings in a sh*t hole situation in cleveland...

Yeah but those decent players/worse players had one or both of these things in their favor: They were good for a long period of time with some very good/great seasons sprinkled in, or have multiple championships. TMac has none of those things working in his favor. McGrady had about a 3-4 year peak period, fell off hard(no longevity), and virtually no playoff success.

Not all the players that have made it into the HOF who imo are worse than mcgrady have championships and some have like two 20 PPG seasons.... Again i think the all star games(subjectivity) and his scoring will get him in barely....i see what you're saying...maybe getting a couple of championships could help his case a little...although you say T Mac fell off hard, he did consistently average 20 PPG until about one or two years ago....however in Houston his efficiency was pretty bad....

Plus as we sit here now TMac is a borderline guy, let alone when you start having some of these younger stars putting together longer careers, accumulating stats, awards, etc. TMac's two scoring titles are nice but in the end you're basically looking at a similar case to Bernard King.

I'd say T Mac is a little better all around player...Bernard was also a pretty bad outside shooter(not that it matters) and IIRC Bernard only was the scoring leader once...T Mac did it twice...i think that says something more....jmo

TMac may be a bit better overall player, but King had more longevity and for the most part is a really similar player legacy wise.

thats hilarious i said the exact same thing right above and i didnt even see your post here....guess we agree on that....King has the shorter career although he was a consistent scorer but the teams he was on weren't that great(you could argue the same thing for T Mac although he did have some good teams in houston and had Vinsanity in Toronto)

Not even in the same paragraph. Let alone sentence.

i'd agree with that

Those Bulls teams don't win 6 titles with Pippen as "the guy", IMO he never had that mentality. Guy was a hell of a player and a stat compiler though. Just never had that "it" thing that would lead teams to titles. That 1 1/2 year stretch though where Jordan was gone gave you a really good idea of the type of player Pippen was/could have been had Jordan not been around.

I never said they would win 6 titles..but they'd win a couple imo esp. with rodman...he'd be an all time great because his statistics would be more impressive as the go to guy and its not like it was just MJ and pippen on those teams...chicago had a great supporting cast...and even when mj left they still were pretty good...i see what you're saying tho

Max Zaslofsy and Bernard King. Most other scoring Champions have been multiple winners for longer periods of time or had long careers in general so we can't really hold TMac to that standard of multiple scoring title guy like we would with others..because he basically accomplished nothing else. Every other scoring title winner that has made the HOF is pretty much some combination of the following: a multiple winner, has rings, playoff success, long career etc. TMac is the exception in that he won a couple scoring titles then dropped off and started getting hurt.

who the heck is that?.....anyway i think the scoring titles could be huge in the end along with the all star games(which i know are subjective) and again T Mac consistently averaged 20 PPG in Houston until 2 years ago even tho his efficiency was poor...

I mean you're dealing with a situation where you have a guy in McGrady who was very good/great for 2 seasons. Good for another two..then basically he became an ineffcient volume scorer...and his avergae wasn't incredibly high. It sucks he got hurt, and obviously there is the "what if" question but when judging the HOF inclusion you cn't judge what if. You have to judge what actually was. TMac doesn't really pass that test IMO.

again....i think that the TWO scoring titles and the all star games are going to push him in.....his all around game is pretty decent even if his scoring efficiency has tapered off..and i agree with the what ifs thing..its speculation and you cant judge things that never happened..you have to look at what DID happened....if what ifs were put into the equation...Grant Hill would be in the HOF no question(i wish)

You left Wade off your list and I think Wade easily makes the HOF over TMac.

Crap i knew i was forgetting someone...i meant to put him in and i would agree with that...

TMac's career isn't going to begin looking any better in retrospect as we move forward. He'll be a "what if guy" but not a HOF guy

I never said T Mac was a sure fire HOFer or a top ballot HOFer but i think he will get in....it'll be close but at the end of the day i think he fits the criteria...barely

I'm not so sure. One ring. Long career. No MVP's. No scoring titles. Some All Star teams, a few 2nd and 3rd All NBA teams. It will be close. I'm not sure if he will get in but it will be interesting to say the least.

Career points is another thing to take into consideration..he has been consistently a top scorer for years and the face of the celtics...i think the ring puts him in.....if he had gotten his 2nd one this year(f you lakers) he'd be no question in..and again i'd say there are worse players that have made it

 

[FirstTimer]

Not all the players that have made it into the HOF who imo are worse than mcgrady have championships and some have like two 20 PPG seasons....

Name a few then?

Just curious.

he did consistently average 20 PPG until about one or two years ago....however in Houston his efficiency was pretty bad....

I think that's the key. When you are nothing but a volume scorer for the most part you NEED to keep that efficiency high to increase your value. TMac started falling off and they turned over more of the offensive sets/load to Yao. TMac went from shooting 45% to shooting 41% and never really came back. A guy playing his type of minutes and taking as many shots as he did is going to get points. It's just the reality of the game but the issue becomes how valuable are his points and how effective and efficient are they?

I'd say T Mac is a little better all around player...Bernard was also a pretty bad outside shooter(not that it matters) and IIRC Bernard only was the scoring leader once...T Mac did it twice...i think that says something more....jmo

King was having to contend with this guy named MJ though as well as the fact that he was incredibly efficient at scoring. The guy averaged 28PPG at the age of 34 shooting 47%.

...King has the shorter career

King played for 13 seasons. Right now him and Tmac have played for the same amount. Plus in Kings second to last season he put up 28PPG. You compare the players of the course of their careers and King was able to still put up really good/solid efficient numbers over the last few seasons of his career. TMac hasn't been able to do that for the last 3-4 seasons.

I never said they would win 6 titles..but they'd win a couple imo esp. with rodman...he'd be an all time great because his statistics would be more impressive as the go to guy and its not like it was just MJ and pippen on those teams...chicago had a great supporting cast...and even when mj left they still were pretty good...i see what you're saying tho

I know you didn't say they'd win 6 but I';m just not quite sure Pippen had :it" to lead a team to the title.

again....i think that the TWO scoring titles

That's all he really has though and over time I don't think that will add up. Plus you have to figure he's going to play what? Maybe 2-3 more seasons and maybe soil that old image even more. TMac's accomplishments won't "age well" in relation to his peers and other guys coming up behind him.

 

[Scoot26]

Tom Thibodeau: Bulls need shooter

Chicago Bulls coach Tom Thibodeau said Friday that Tracy McGrady has not been ruled out as a possibility, but the team's priority is to add another shooter.

"It's how a guy fits into your team," Thibodeau said on "The Waddle & Silvy Show" on ESPN 1000. "He's had a long, distinguished career. He's had injuries, and durability is an issue, but I still think he can help a team."

Asked whether he could help the Bulls, Thibodeau did not sound optimistic.

"I don't know specifically our team," he said. "I think how things play out, we're still weighing it as a possibility. We haven't ruled it out, but again we feel we have to add more shooting. So right now, that's what we're putting a premium on."

The Bulls have talked to the agent for Keith Bogans, according to a person familiar with the situation, and they're reportedly interested in Portland's Rudy Fernandez.

Thibodeau downplayed reports that McGrady did not preform well in an individual workout with the Bulls.

"I thought his workout was fine," Thibodeau said. "I think sometimes those things are overstated, when a guy comes in and it's 1-on-0.

"I've coached Tracy, so I know what he brings to the table. The best thing he probably does is his playmaking, and people overlook that. He's a great passer, and he's a great decision-maker."

After the workout, ESPN's Marc Stein and Chris Broussard reported the team was unlikely to sign McGrady, because among other things, he may be hesitant to accept a role off the bench.

Thiobodeau also said Larry Johnson had been interested in becoming a Bulls assistant, but that's no longer a possibility.

Chicago Bulls coach Tom Thibodeau said Tracy McGrady remains a possibility - ESPN Chicago