thenewguy
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In fairness, Burton and Shaheen are contributing pretty well the second they left the Nagy show.
You also forgot Harris.
You also forgot Harris.
Canth
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I still feel that Pace learned the wrong lesson from his first draft. He missed on Leonard Williams by one pick and then obviously took Kevin White. I got the sense that he was surprised when the Jets took Williams and it seems like ever since then he is prone to trading up to make sure that he gets "his" guys. So, he has wasted a lot of picks in trades that were not necessary to building the team. Which is not to say that all trades are bad, but you cannot trade up as much as he has for guys that are not truly special. That just kills your ability to build depth and that is what we are seeing now for the Bears is that there is just not a lot of depth and obviously all the issues with the offensive line.
So, because he has no depth or guys in the pipe line, he has to go spend and overpay in free agency rather than being in a position to not overpay and/or let guys walk and get compensatory draft picks to keep that depth and development train rolling. You look at teams like Baltimore and New England and they have been very good for years at the very dynamic - drafting well, developing guys, and being willing to let them walk maybe a year or two early, getting those comp picks, and keeping cap flexibility. No one drafts perfectly - including Baltimore and New England, but because they are more prone to trade back and only very rarely trade up - they have the draft picks to burn so to speak so when they miss here and there they are not completely screwed. They still have good overall talent and depth for the entire team.
The other issue I have with Pace and his drafting especially in round 1 is that, imo, he was too likely to draft the guy that had great physical traits but no consistent production at the collegiate level. The first time he did not do that was Roquan and low and behold, you have a guy that is producing at a high level in the NFL. Although I guess you could also argue that Floyd had production in college that has translated to the NFL. Floyd's a very good linebacker, he was just never a pass rusher which is what he was drafted to be - so again, you drafted a guy with a high pick (top 10) after trading up to be something he never showed in college.
I will say that once Pace finally acknowledges a weakness in the team, he is very aggressive about addressing the spot. But even there, I would argue that he does it at the expense of keeping in mind to build the overall team. I think you see that with pass rushing, the TE position, and even arguably the qb position. He has been very aggressive in trying to fill those spots, and obviously Mack has been the huge positive. I think we all know the fails at qb. And then TE position has also had a -lot- of resources (2 2nd round picks and 2 very high priced free agents) thrown at it with not a lot to show for it - especially when you see the neglect to the offensive line at the same time.
So, back to the topic - could it be worse? Sure, you could end up with a idiot like O'Brien was down in Houston. But, I think Pace has shown that he doesn't really know how to build an entire team that is sustainable, so you have to move on at this point. Yes, he seemingly knows how to scout defensive draft picks, but I don't see how you can trust him with another qb pick. And especially in the modern NFL, if you cannot trust your GM to find a qb then I don't see how you keep that guy as your GM.
So, because he has no depth or guys in the pipe line, he has to go spend and overpay in free agency rather than being in a position to not overpay and/or let guys walk and get compensatory draft picks to keep that depth and development train rolling. You look at teams like Baltimore and New England and they have been very good for years at the very dynamic - drafting well, developing guys, and being willing to let them walk maybe a year or two early, getting those comp picks, and keeping cap flexibility. No one drafts perfectly - including Baltimore and New England, but because they are more prone to trade back and only very rarely trade up - they have the draft picks to burn so to speak so when they miss here and there they are not completely screwed. They still have good overall talent and depth for the entire team.
The other issue I have with Pace and his drafting especially in round 1 is that, imo, he was too likely to draft the guy that had great physical traits but no consistent production at the collegiate level. The first time he did not do that was Roquan and low and behold, you have a guy that is producing at a high level in the NFL. Although I guess you could also argue that Floyd had production in college that has translated to the NFL. Floyd's a very good linebacker, he was just never a pass rusher which is what he was drafted to be - so again, you drafted a guy with a high pick (top 10) after trading up to be something he never showed in college.
I will say that once Pace finally acknowledges a weakness in the team, he is very aggressive about addressing the spot. But even there, I would argue that he does it at the expense of keeping in mind to build the overall team. I think you see that with pass rushing, the TE position, and even arguably the qb position. He has been very aggressive in trying to fill those spots, and obviously Mack has been the huge positive. I think we all know the fails at qb. And then TE position has also had a -lot- of resources (2 2nd round picks and 2 very high priced free agents) thrown at it with not a lot to show for it - especially when you see the neglect to the offensive line at the same time.
So, back to the topic - could it be worse? Sure, you could end up with a idiot like O'Brien was down in Houston. But, I think Pace has shown that he doesn't really know how to build an entire team that is sustainable, so you have to move on at this point. Yes, he seemingly knows how to scout defensive draft picks, but I don't see how you can trust him with another qb pick. And especially in the modern NFL, if you cannot trust your GM to find a qb then I don't see how you keep that guy as your GM.
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Harris is a one year million dollar guy, I don’t count him as a good or bad move.
Burton is medicore and Shaheen hasn’t done much of anything in Miami except get extended. But it doesn’t matter because they did nothing for us as a return on investment.
TL1961
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I am not lobbying on behalf of Nagy, but do you seriously think the Bears' inability to run the ball right now is scheme? Play calling? The Bears O Line right now has 4 guys who would not start on any other team in the league.
It ain't the X's and O's, it' s the Jimmys and Joes.
TL1961
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Shaheen has fewer yards receiving than Cole Kmet and all we hear is "Why isn't Kmet playing?" Somehow the "Shaheen is productive" myth got rolling and nobody bothers to look up the facts. Shaheen is not contributing well.
Montucky
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Shaheen is starting for a playoff team. In fact the Dolphins liked him so much they extended him almost immediately. Certainly not worthless.
Montucky
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Nagy is forcing Whitehair to play out of position which causes a cascading series of problems. Never mind that Pace drafted a good NFL center but Nagy cut him the last week of training camp, so now the guy who should be starting at center for the Bears is starting for the 49ers instead.
Tillman33
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The problem with firing Pace is that he is still free to fuck up another organization’s dreams. It’s immoral to allow him to keep working on the NFL. He needs to be deported to Pakistan once and for all.
MikeDitkaPolishSausage
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The problem with not firing Pace:
Overall record: 39-51 (6 seasons)
Above .500 record: 1 Season
Playoff Appearances- 1 Season
I don’t feel like doing the math but he’s on Pace for ummm being a shitty GM.
Overall record: 39-51 (6 seasons)
Above .500 record: 1 Season
Playoff Appearances- 1 Season
I don’t feel like doing the math but he’s on Pace for ummm being a shitty GM.
mecha
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the problem with firing Pace:
-the team will hire a "consultant" in an effort to hire a new General Manager because they are inept and can't do this themselves.
-Ted Phillips will still be the President, an accountant ie. not football guy.
-the team will hire another first timer that's never been a General Manager before to carry out the task of being General Manager.
or for those of you that are learning deficient and would like to continue this argument into February/until it reaches 30 pages, nothing's going to change.
advantages of not firing Pace:
-you already know what you have.
-maybe he will get good at what he does on the offensive side ie. not reach for players with horrible trade deals that will inevitably accomplish nothing and not survive in the league beyond their rookie contracts.
-the team will hire a "consultant" in an effort to hire a new General Manager because they are inept and can't do this themselves.
-Ted Phillips will still be the President, an accountant ie. not football guy.
-the team will hire another first timer that's never been a General Manager before to carry out the task of being General Manager.
or for those of you that are learning deficient and would like to continue this argument into February/until it reaches 30 pages, nothing's going to change.
advantages of not firing Pace:
-you already know what you have.
-maybe he will get good at what he does on the offensive side ie. not reach for players with horrible trade deals that will inevitably accomplish nothing and not survive in the league beyond their rookie contracts.
Toast88
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Only a fool holds onto something shitty because he’s afraid he’ll get stuck with something even shittier.
What a loser mentality.
What a loser mentality.
mecha
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my comment above was mostly done in jest at the end. ok, maybe the whole thing. I don't think the team has had a legitimate GM since Jim Finks though.
as I've said before, this team should have fucked up into success by now. like, statistically.
Forty-six
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The bottom line is we need a new QB. Do you trust Pace to make that decision (again)? I do not and so, Pace must go.
The only thing Bears fans have known over the past 30 years is a dominant defense paired with a horrific offense to at best, a mediocre offense. Fans deserve better! The Bears themselves have proven this formula doesn't produce a long lasting championship caliber team. Pace doesn't get credit for building half a team. I'm pretty sure he was hired to build a championship team and to this point I see no evidence he's done that.
Colleges are churning out athletic, dynamic exciting franchise quarterbacks at a rate we've never seen before. I want one of those guys. For once. Before I die. Hire a new GM. Find the quarterback. A lot of mediocre teams have recently cracked the QB code (Chiefs, Texans, Dolphins, Bills, Chargers, Bengals, Cardinals, Ravens) and have their guy in place. It's possible. Despite what the Bears front office has told us throughout much of our lifetimes I'm here to tell you you deserve a franchise quarterback too! Let's go Bears!
The only thing Bears fans have known over the past 30 years is a dominant defense paired with a horrific offense to at best, a mediocre offense. Fans deserve better! The Bears themselves have proven this formula doesn't produce a long lasting championship caliber team. Pace doesn't get credit for building half a team. I'm pretty sure he was hired to build a championship team and to this point I see no evidence he's done that.
Colleges are churning out athletic, dynamic exciting franchise quarterbacks at a rate we've never seen before. I want one of those guys. For once. Before I die. Hire a new GM. Find the quarterback. A lot of mediocre teams have recently cracked the QB code (Chiefs, Texans, Dolphins, Bills, Chargers, Bengals, Cardinals, Ravens) and have their guy in place. It's possible. Despite what the Bears front office has told us throughout much of our lifetimes I'm here to tell you you deserve a franchise quarterback too! Let's go Bears!
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Poetry
Canth
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The one thing I will say to this is that, in general, GM's do not normally get a 2nd chance. It's very rare for a guy to be given a chance to lead more than one franchise. However, on the flip side, in that one chance they get, GM's are often given a chance to hire two head coaches. So GM's normally have a slightly longer leash. Certainly not a given and that dynamic can be thrown off when you have just a truly shitty GM like Emery or any of the guys hired by the Browns.
In the case of the Bears, Pace has been given plenty of opportunities - 2 coaches and multiple top 10 picks to build a team...and failed. He may have built a great defense, but he has never built a good team.
circusboy666
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cant run a franchise with that mindset. Not winning super bowls is not winning super bowls. Pace can’t even give us the talent to stay competitive. The QB situation alone since he’s been here should get him shit canned.
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Meh. That's like saying Kmet is contributing here.
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Problem with keeping Pace is that mediocracy is stasis in the NFL. When the O is this bad and it's arrow can't point anywhere but up, it's time for a change. I was of the same mind as the OP but when you have a GM that is enabling his O minded HC because he doesn't have the chops to see the issues himself...
This year was make or break for Nagy and Pace and Monday was that game against a divisional opponent that we should match up great against. 149 yards with 2 TO and 6 points by the O . No O points after the 1st quarter and one of the 2 1st quarter FGs was off a pick. A 3rd quarter with more punts than yards and 32 yards in the entire 2nd 1/2. This, against a bottom ranked D.
This year was make or break for Nagy and Pace and Monday was that game against a divisional opponent that we should match up great against. 149 yards with 2 TO and 6 points by the O . No O points after the 1st quarter and one of the 2 1st quarter FGs was off a pick. A 3rd quarter with more punts than yards and 32 yards in the entire 2nd 1/2. This, against a bottom ranked D.
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If you haven't noticed, this one really pissed me off and I have patience when it come to letting a scheme or player develop. The reason to bring in Foles was because he would tell us about this o and coach because he supposedly can run the system and was hand picked to do so.
Sparks500
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So, once AGAIN in my decades of being a Bear fan, I’m trapped with rooting for losses as the only way to insure meaningful change to the Bear organization.
at some point, we just have to accept that this is a loser organization, led by losers, populated with losers, that has little or no redeeming qualities....
at some point, we just have to accept that this is a loser organization, led by losers, populated with losers, that has little or no redeeming qualities....
