The Revised and Final Case for Gordon

[clonetrooper264]

Objective fact about Kirk: He is a better defender than Gordon
Objective fact about Ben: He is a lot better on the offensive end

I think people go out and bash Gordon because he is our primary offensive threat. Kirk quite simply is not. What Kirk is supposed to do is play defense and facilitate on offense. Ben is (arguably) our best player and as such is more likely to be subject to criticism. Thus if Ben goes out and has a poor shooting night, "drones" will out and bash him because he didn't do what he is supposed to do, which is score (however chances are he went out and had a clutch 4th quarter if need arose).

And Fred, in your little high school girl analogy there, which one is Kirk and which one is Ben? It could be seen both ways (though I think I know which one you're going to say is who).

Bottom line, I think Ben is a better player by far. Kirk isn't god, but he's not a bad player. I think he's a pretty good player. Sure he's a little overpaid, boo freaking hoo. At least he's not like Deng (massively overpaid for what he does on the court and injury prone at that). Not to say that Deng sucks (which he doesn't) it's just that what you can say is bad about Kirk is equally applicable to Deng.

 

[Fred]

And again, I am not criticizing the large group of Hinrich supporters because I referred to that emailer as a basement dweller in his parent's basement. That emailer was insulting to Ben Gordon. To send such an email, without any facts to support the argument, is quite pathetic and cowardly. There's nothing wrong with living in your parent's basement. I used to live there too in the 90's. There is something wrong with using it as your base to make stupid, insulting arguments, for Steve Kashul to read, without any facts to back it up.

I've endured many, many, anger and hate filled emails over the years because I've backed Ben and been a critic of Hinrich.

 

[Fred]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

And Fred, in your little high school girl analogy there, which one is Kirk and which one is Ben? It could be seen both ways (though I think I know which one you're going to say is who)

I'd equate 41% career shooting with a horrible personality and roaring case of herpes. Nothing against those of you with a horrible personality and a roaring case of herpes, it's just not my cup of tea.

 

[theCHI_Life84]

i think his main problem is the people who bash on gordon, not necessarily the people who like hinrich. it just turns out that a lot of the people who bash gordon seem to think hinrich is a better player and can do everything bg can do (which, im sure, all of you know this is not true. the numbers are right above you).

ive seen a couple highlight reels that curiously omit bg in favor of throwing in a hinrich jumper, or a dunk highlight from TT (when he gets 4 and 4 the whole game), all while bg scores like 300 points in the game that night. maybe what needs to be said is that ben gordon is a largely UNDERRATED player rather than hinrich being overrated. but nonetheless, i dont think its crazy to feel that hinrich is overrated.

and theres no reason to get offended at the way fred throws the insults around. theyre just for comedic effect imo

 

[clonetrooper264]

Fred wrote:

And again, I am not criticizing the large group of Hinrich supporters because I referred to that emailer as a basement dweller in his parent's basement. That emailer was insulting to Ben Gordon. To send such an email, without any facts to support the argument, is quite pathetic and cowardly. There's nothing wrong with living in your parent's basement. I used to live there too in the 90's. There is something wrong with using it as your base to make stupid, insulting arguments, for Steve Kashul to read, without any facts to back it up.

I've endured many, many, anger and hate filled emails over the years because I've backed Ben and been a critic of Hinrich.

Yes I will admit that the email was stupid. Obviously that person really doesn't know a lot about Bulls basketball. The way I see it, don't waste your time with them, they don't bother to educate themselves about basketball and aren't worth your time.

Hate filled emails sent because you backed Ben and criticized Hinrich. In some ways aren't those people doing the same for Kirk? You can't fault them because of the fact that they like Hinrich better, you CAN fault them for using poor arguments. Whether that means that you can call them someone who lives in their parents' basement is another matter entirely.

Quite simply, Hinrich supporters are insulted because of the criticism you give, very similar to the way you are insulted by criticism of Ben. Now I don't think this should be about Kirk vs. Ben. They're different players and contribute in different ways, both of which are vital to the success of the team. Honestly, the Bulls are better with both on the team, but if one wishes to keep Ben, then Kirk almost certainly has to go (assuming you want to be cheap like JR and not go over the lux. tax). Not because he's bad, but because he is a luxury we can't afford. Think about it, how much of a benefit is it to have a player who can be a starter on any team in this league coming off the bench? But now I'm getting off topic...

Ben supporters: stop hating on Kirk
Kirk supporters: stop hating on Ben

Now can we please move on with our lives?

 

[Fred]

wjb1492 wrote:


So now I can be insulted as a Kirk fan and as a female poster? [/quote]

I take it all back. I'm running out to get my #12 jersey tonight, and I'm going to borrow my wife's A. Morrisette CD to play in the car. And I promise not to swear anymore when she wants to watch Sex in the City instead of ESPN on our big TV.

 

[Fred]

theCHI_Life84 wrote:

i think his main problem is the people who bash on gordon, not necessarily the people who like hinrich. it just turns out that a lot of the people who bash gordon seem to think hinrich is a better player and can do everything bg can do (which, im sure, all of you know this is not true. the numbers are right above you).

ive seen a couple highlight reels that curiously omit bg in favor of throwing in a hinrich jumper, or a dunk highlight from TT (when he gets 4 and 4 the whole game), all while bg scores like 300 points in the game that night. maybe what needs to be said is that ben gordon is a largely UNDERRATED player rather than hinrich being overrated. but nonetheless, i dont think its crazy to feel that hinrich is overrated.

and theres no reason to get offended at the way fred throws the insults around. theyre just for comedic effect imo

Basically, this is email of the year, IMO, because he's explained it better than I ever could've. Did you win tickets? If not, I want to change my vote.

 

[theCHI_Life84]

LOL

no i didnt win tickets. i live in LA

 

[Fred]

You should meet up with my podcast partner Mark out there. He's in La Hoya, CA. Meet halfway in Laguna. You can laugh your a$$ off as he tries to tell you Monta Ellis is better than BG.

 

[theCHI_Life84]

way ahead of you (at the laughing part).

hes averaging less ppg than bg, while operating in a run n gun offense that scores the 2nd most points per game in the league. stick bg in that offense, he can easily be getting at least 25. and ellis isnt even close to bg's 3 point average.

ellis isnt a bad player, but numbers dont lie

 

[wjb1492]

Fred wrote:

I take it all back. I'm running out to get my #12 jersey tonight, and I'm going to borrow my wife's A. Morrisette CD to play in the car. And I promise not to swear anymore when she wants to watch Sex in the City instead of ESPN on our big TV.

Eww, swear all you want if forced to watch Sex in the City. That show should definitely be confined to smaller TVs, preferably ones that require headphones to listen to.

The other stuff would be good, though.

 

[Kush77]

Wow this is a hot thread, let me throw in my thoughts.

I heard the same email being read on the pre-game show Fred. I was surprised by Bill Wennington's response. That if we can get him for a good price. What? How about the same price the team paid Deng? Lets see, who's more important? Gordon or Deng? I don't understand why some people think Gordon is going to accept less from THIS organization. I can't see it happening. I can see him taking less elsewhere if that's just the way it works.

Hinrich is overrated. He's overrated in the sense that he's had two role-player type seasons, but people (media and fans) go out of their way to compliment and praise the guy. Ask yourself this question. What if Ben Gordon - this season - had a season like Hinrich's last two? OMG, the media drones would be ready to crucify BG. It's a joke.

As for bashing Hinrich. I try to avoid it. I want him to do well. It's one of those things where you defend one guy but to make your case you end up ripping the other. Like Grossman vs Griese or something like that.

I just don't get the overrating of Hinrich. Never has a guy who averages over the last two years are about - 10.5ppg, 42% shooting, 5 assists and 3 rebounds - ever got so much support. But we're willing to keep the team's leading scorer the last 4 years at the right price? What? I just don't get it.

Steve Blake had better numbers than Hinrich this year. I wonder if Blake's support in Portland even rivals that of Hinrich's in Chicago?

 

[clonetrooper264]

Kush77 wrote:

Steve Blake had better numbers than Hinrich this year. I wonder if Blake's support in Portland even rivals that of Hinrich's in Chicago?

Hinrich: 26.3mpg 0.437fg% 0.4083pt% 0.791ft% 0.3off 2.1def 2.4rpg 3.9apg 1.3spg 0.4 bpg 1.71to 2.50pf 9.9ppg in 51 games

Blake: 31.7mpg 0.428fg% 0.4273pt% 0.840ft% 0.4off 2.1def 2.5rpg 5.0apg 1.0spg 0.1 bpg .57to 1.80pf 11.0ppg in 69 games

Well on offense I think that Blake's numbers are a little inflated since he plays more than Hinrich does. Obviously defensively Hinrich wins. You give Hinrich 30+ mpg and I think that Hinrich will clearly be seen as the better player. Looking at career numbers, Hinrich is still the better player. Now I'm not going to say OMG Kirk Hinrich is so good blah blah blah Steve Blake is trash blah blah blah. They're both fine players, but I think Hinrich is better. Blake receives a boost from having Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldridge, and at times Greg Oden, all of whom are legitimate scoring options. Good for him. I'd say that rivals Kirk's support of Ben, Tyrus/Joakim, Miller, Salmons, etc.

 

[??? ??????]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

Steve Blake had better numbers than Hinrich this year. I wonder if Blake's support in Portland even rivals that of Hinrich's in Chicago?

Hinrich: 26.3mpg 0.437fg% 0.4083pt% 0.791ft% 0.3off 2.1def 2.4rpg 3.9apg 1.3spg 0.4 bpg 1.71to 2.50pf 9.9ppg in 51 games

Blake: 31.7mpg 0.428fg% 0.4273pt% 0.840ft% 0.4off 2.1def 2.5rpg 5.0apg 1.0spg 0.1 bpg .57to 1.80pf 11.0ppg in 69 games

Well on offense I think that Blake's numbers are a little inflated since he plays more than Hinrich does. Obviously defensively Hinrich wins. You give Hinrich 30+ mpg and I think that Hinrich will clearly be seen as the better player. Looking at career numbers, Hinrich is still the better player. Now I'm not going to say OMG Kirk Hinrich is so good blah blah blah Steve Blake is trash blah blah blah. They're both fine players, but I think Hinrich is better. Blake receives a boost from having Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldridge, and at times Greg Oden, all of whom are legitimate scoring options. Good for him. I'd say that rivals Kirk's support of Ben, Tyrus/Joakim, Miller, Salmons, etc.

You have to take into account also that Portland plays the slowest pace in the league, while the Bulls play one of hte fastest.

Steve Blake's a better passer and a little better as a scorer, while Hinrich holds a large edge in defense.

 

[clonetrooper264]

??? ?????? wrote:

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

Steve Blake had better numbers than Hinrich this year. I wonder if Blake's support in Portland even rivals that of Hinrich's in Chicago?

Hinrich: 26.3mpg 0.437fg% 0.4083pt% 0.791ft% 0.3off 2.1def 2.4rpg 3.9apg 1.3spg 0.4 bpg 1.71to 2.50pf 9.9ppg in 51 games

Blake: 31.7mpg 0.428fg% 0.4273pt% 0.840ft% 0.4off 2.1def 2.5rpg 5.0apg 1.0spg 0.1 bpg .57to 1.80pf 11.0ppg in 69 games

Well on offense I think that Blake's numbers are a little inflated since he plays more than Hinrich does. Obviously defensively Hinrich wins. You give Hinrich 30+ mpg and I think that Hinrich will clearly be seen as the better player. Looking at career numbers, Hinrich is still the better player. Now I'm not going to say OMG Kirk Hinrich is so good blah blah blah Steve Blake is trash blah blah blah. They're both fine players, but I think Hinrich is better. Blake receives a boost from having Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldridge, and at times Greg Oden, all of whom are legitimate scoring options. Good for him. I'd say that rivals Kirk's support of Ben, Tyrus/Joakim, Miller, Salmons, etc.

You have to take into account also that Portland plays the slowest pace in the league, while the Bulls play one of hte fastest.

Steve Blake's a better passer and a little better as a scorer, while Hinrich holds a large edge in defense.

Haha then who's the better player? Well that's a matter of opinion isn't it? Sorta like Kirk and Ben. However, people must realize that Ben is the more valuable player since he can take over and a game and hit clutch shots with the game on the line, something Hinrich either cannot do or chooses not to.

You trade Hinrich for Blake and then you have someone who is more fit for the role that Kirk is filling right now: backup pg. Rationale, Blake doesn't make a large amount of money (to my knowledge) and has been a backup for every team he's played for except Portland.

 

[Kush77]

For the record, I think Hinrich is better than Blake. I was just showing that Blake's stats were similar.

I understand the point with minutes this year, but what was the excuse in 07/08? He was just bad.

 

[Shakes]

I wonder if some of the reason Gordon is underrated now is because he was overrated earlier. In particular his first year, because he hit some late shots people were willing to overlook the fact he was basically an fairly inefficient scorer who had somewhat of a turnover problem and couldn't defend Yi's chair.

He's corrected all that now, but I'm sure in some people's mind they're still seeing that BG who was being called "Ben Jordan" by some fans who were just as deluded about Ben as you find others deluded about Kirk.

I have to agree with Doug though, when Fred starts going on like there's some vast conspiracy of Kirk Hinrich lovers working night and day to bring Ben Gordon down he hurts the points he's trying to make.

 

[dougthonus]

I heard the same email being read on the pre-game show Fred. I was surprised by Bill Wennington's response. That if we can get him for a good price. What? How about the same price the team paid Deng? Lets see, who's more important? Gordon or Deng? I don't understand why some people think Gordon is going to accept less from THIS organization. I can't see it happening. I can see him taking less elsewhere if that's just the way it works.

If I pay you 3 billion dollars per article and only offer fred 2 billion dollars should fred be pissed or happy that he got 2 billion dollars which is quite a bit more than anyone else will offer him?

Gordon is not worth Deng's contract, nor will he get that much money (or anywhere close to it) from any other team. Deng is also not worth Deng's contract. Compounding one mistake with another will not help the bulls.

If Gordon wants to take less elsewhere then that's up to him. Maybe he will choose to do so. I'm not sure. I think there's a good chance he signs for less than the Bulls offered him twice because they didn't offer him enough and then will claim it's about respect.

That's fine, he will have spited the Bulls at great cost to himself as well.

 

[dougthonus]

I just don't get the overrating of Hinrich. Never has a guy who averages over the last two years are about - 10.5ppg, 42% shooting, 5 assists and 3 rebounds - ever got so much support. But we're willing to keep the team's leading scorer the last 4 years at the right price? What? I just don't get it.

I think you're living in the past. I don't recall anyone saying in the past year and a half or so that Hinrich's worth his present contract, most people thought he would be traded for certain during the summer.

People generally seemed fine with him going. I don't think anyone in the media really says Hinrich is better than Gordon, and your numbers are sort of sketchy because Kirk's role has changed so much this year. He's had a much better year this year than last year, but it doesn't show up in the stats due to a changed role due to Derrick Rose which is part of the reason he should be moved.

Don't get me wrong, i'm all for keeping Ben over Kirk, but I think he gets nearly the support that you and Fred think he does. I listen to ESPN 1000 all the time, and I don't hear them ever say anything good about Kirk. They may debate Gordon, but no one comes up and talks about how great Kirk is.

 

[Newskoolbulls]

dougthonus wrote:

I heard the same email being read on the pre-game show Fred. I was surprised by Bill Wennington's response. That if we can get him for a good price. What? How about the same price the team paid Deng? Lets see, who's more important? Gordon or Deng? I don't understand why some people think Gordon is going to accept less from THIS organization. I can't see it happening. I can see him taking less elsewhere if that's just the way it works.

If I pay you 3 billion dollars per article and only offer fred 2 billion dollars should fred be pissed or happy that he got 2 billion dollars which is quite a bit more than anyone else will offer him?

Gordon is not worth Deng's contract, nor will he get that much money (or anywhere close to it) from any other team. Deng is also not worth Deng's contract. Compounding one mistake with another will not help the bulls.

If Gordon wants to take less elsewhere then that's up to him. Maybe he will choose to do so. I'm not sure. I think there's a good chance he signs for less than the Bulls offered him twice because they didn't offer him enough and then will claim it's about respect.

That's fine, he will have spited the Bulls at great cost to himself as well.

I doubt he would take less to go to another team, remember the two other markets (NY and LA) wont be interested and I doubt he would go to some small market team with no opportunity to make some cash through marketing. If Ben doesnt sign for something close to 50 million he needs to fire Raymond Brothers.