The US Criminal Justice System

[TSD]

I was watching Penn and Tellers Bullshit yesterday on the US Criminal Justice System and was doing some further sleuthing online.



They had a guy on there who served 35 years in prison for raping a 9 year old boy and was proven innocent by the innocence project.



In his case the blood type of the semen found on the boy did not match the accused persons blood type. The DA got a FBI expert to take the stand and say simply this "it doesnt mean he didnt do it". Hes right, but it sure makes it pretty damn unlikely that he did.



The cops also F'ed up the accused was their main suspect and knew the boy, the cops asked the boy to pick the accused out of the line up...NOT HIS ATTACKER.



The innocence project ultimately got the DNA of the semen sample and it didnt match the accused, and ultimately he was released. The local Courts stated the innocence projects effort was a win and proved the system works....um...how does an innocent man sitting in jail for 35 years prove the system works?





Anyway, i found a pretty interesting blog:

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2010/02/how_many_innocent_people_are_i.php



and a key point as to what I agree with is one of the biggest problems:



2. Stop electing prosecutors -- and judges. It is the need to run for reelection that forces prosecutors and judges to be concerned about their conviction rate rather than their rate of being right.

 

[jaxhawksfan]

Good topic TSD. Is it broken? Hell yes. Going to jail is like going to a country club nowadays. They get to lounge around and play PS3, watch cable tv, have someone cook for them. Sure they don't have freedom to come and go, but life sure as hell doesn't look so tough in jail. Hell, they even get a free education in the joint if they choose to take advantage of it. Yes, our system is busted. We have taught people over the past couple decades "It is only stuff, and it can be replaced. It isn't worth a human life." I say bullshit. I work hard for my stuff like all of you do. There is nobody out there who has the right to steal it from me, whether it can be replaced or not. As more of these punks get shot in the fucking face (there's real justice for you) and stop flooding our penal/taxpayer system perhaps the trend of "what's yours is mine" might slow down.



As far as innocent people being convicted, one time is too many, and I'm sure it happens more than we would like to admit, but it is still the minority.

 

[supraman]

It is broken. a fair trial comes at a steep financial price it seems. It also seems to move at a snail's pace. I feel there are many many problems with the system and it needs some work.

 

[TSD]

Good topic TSD. Is it broken? Hell yes. Going to jail is like going to a country club nowadays. They get to lounge around and play PS3, watch cable tv, have someone cook for them. Sure they don't have freedom to come and go, but life sure as hell doesn't look so tough in jail. Hell, they even get a free education in the joint if they choose to take advantage of it. Yes, our system is busted. We have taught people over the past couple decades "It is only stuff, and it can be replaced. It isn't worth a human life." I say bullshit. I work hard for my stuff like all of you do. There is nobody out there who has the right to steal it from me, whether it can be replaced or not. As more of these punks get shot in the fucking face (there's real justice for you) and stop flooding our penal/taxpayer system perhaps the trend of "what's yours is mine" might slow down.



As far as innocent people being convicted, one time is too many, and I'm sure it happens more than we would like to admit, but it is still the minority.

I don't think its anything that can be completely fixed either, even if you fix blatant problems. Unfortunately, sometimes the evidence can be pretty damning for someone even if they are innocent.



They had another guy on the episode of Bullshit I watched, who suffered a debilitating car accident that left him unable to walk and with terrible pain, he gets a large perscription of pain meds from his doctor.



the police were watching him for drug trafficing, after getting no evidence they got a warrant to search his home. and found ONE bottle of perscription pain killer that had over the legal amount you can have at one time for that drug (but matched the quanitity on the bottle). If anything I would say it is his doctors fault not his.



Anyway the DA brought him up on charges for drug trafficing twice, both times it got thrown out of court. When a new judge took over, the DA charged him again, and this time there was a trial and he was convicted and sentenced to 25 years in prison for drug trafficing. For a bottle of prescription pain meds, prescribed by his doctor. The conviction was overturned in an appeal.



It just shows the ridiculousness of a DA wanting a conviction although this is a very extreme example I am ridiculously curious as to how this poor guy even got on the cops radar. Or I would have loved to sit in on that trial to find out what the prosecution said to get the jury to convict this guy.

 

[BlackHawkPaul]

Good topic TSD. Is it broken? Hell yes. Going to jail is like going to a country club nowadays. They get to lounge around and play PS3, watch cable tv, have someone cook for them. Sure they don't have freedom to come and go, but life sure as hell doesn't look so tough in jail. Hell, they even get a free education in the joint if they choose to take advantage of it. Yes, our system is busted. We have taught people over the past couple decades "It is only stuff, and it can be replaced. It isn't worth a human life." I say bullshit. I work hard for my stuff like all of you do. There is nobody out there who has the right to steal it from me, whether it can be replaced or not. As more of these punks get shot in the fucking face (there's real justice for you) and stop flooding our penal/taxpayer system perhaps the trend of "what's yours is mine" might slow down.



As far as innocent people being convicted, one time is too many, and I'm sure it happens more than we would like to admit, but it is still the minority.

My thesis documentary's premise touches upon your post.

I'm doing a documentary on a young woman that was convicted of triple homicide in the year 2000 and sentenced to 165 years in prison. She was released after 7, and is currently living in Indiana (where the crime happened). I intend on interviewing her, her family, and the victim's family members on various issues-- one being the justice system.

It will be very interesting on opinions from both sides-- the successes, failures, and the oddities of the system.

I guarantee you that state prison is no country club. Even for the women. I have guards from the state and county level that are doing interviews, and your point will be a question I will now ask-- living conditions.



[edit] What's interesting as well is the business side of prisons. The (inexpensive) labor that happens within that the state profits on, and it basically goes unchecked. Mind you, I'm one for rehabilitation for those-- but is that what really happens for those that choose to partake in those programs?



When cons are released, they're limited to certain jobs-- which in turn has effects. Now, on the flip side one can say "well, you shouldn't have done crime ______, then you could do job _____.



My film will probably change a few viewpoints I have had in the past about prisons/the system. Then again-- knowing some one that has been locked up changes my personal viewpoint on "lock them up and throw away the key."

 

[TSD]

My thesis documentary's premise touches upon your post.

I'm doing a documentary on a young woman that was convicted of triple homicide in the year 2000 and sentenced to 165 years in prison. She was released after 7, and is currently living in Indiana (where the crime happened). I intend on interviewing her, her family, and the victim's family members on various issues-- one being the justice system.

It will be very interesting on opinions from both sides-- the successes, failures, and the oddities of the system.

I guarantee you that state prison is no country club. Even for the women. I have guards from the state and county level that are doing interviews, and your point will be a question I will now ask-- living conditions.

Did the woman do it and was released? Or was she innocent?

 

[sth]

The criminal justice system in America is very much out of whack. I just don't think you can have a death penalty when so many people are being wrongly convicted. I saw a show about a father in Texas charged with arson in 1991 later evidence proved he was innocent or at least there was a lot of doubt. But the governor didn't stay his execution many people felt for political reasons and he got executed. Also I've never been to prison but judging on how messed up people that go to prison seem to come out I don't think it is a country club.

 

[BlackHawkPaul]

Did the woman do it and was released? Or was she innocent?

Charity





What I linked is going to be so much different from version 2.

She and 3 others planned a robbery that turned bad.

She was not present for the robbery.

There were construction workers on site that were witnesses. They were led into a pole barn by the robbers and shot execution style. Charity had no intent on anyone being killed. It ended up being a huge case in Indiana (election year).



When everything was done after the appeals, Charity had time served for a robbery charge.



My film will basically present the facts, and talk about how the system failed both sides.

The question: Did Charity deserve 165 years? She walks away... there are still 3 people dead for her actions.



Not innocent. But it depends on the point of view when it comes to the murders.



[edit] More or less, I want it to cause a discussion/debate.

And it will.

 

[TSD]

Charity





What I linked is going to be so much different from version 2.

She and 3 others planned a robbery that turned bad.

She was not present for the robbery.

There were construction workers on site that were witnesses. They were led into a pole barn by the robbers and shot execution style. Charity had no intent on anyone being killed. It ended up being a huge case in Indiana (election year).



When everything was done after the appeals, Charity had time served for a robbery charge.



My film will basically present the facts, and talk about how the system failed both sides.

The question: Did Charity deserve 165 years? She walks away... there are still 3 people dead for her actions.



Not innocent. But it depends on the point of view when it comes to the murders.



[edit] More or less, I want it to cause a discussion/debate.

And it will.

Interesting. Yeah she wasnt exactly guilty, but at the same time wasnt innocent.

 

[mikita's helmet]

The criminal justice system in America is very much out of whack. I just don't think you can have a death penalty when so many people are being wrongly convicted. I saw a show about a father in Texas charged with arson in 1991 later evidence proved he was innocent or at least there was a lot of doubt. But the governor didn't stay his execution many people felt for political reasons and he got executed. Also I've never been to prison but judging on how messed up people that go to prison seem to come out I don't think it is a country club.

I saw that, too. It seemed like the government's attitude like the folks in the town where it happened was, "we know he did it, **** the evidence." The original arson investigators relying on "gut instinct" was a fucking joke, too.

 

[Kerfuffle]

Charity





What I linked is going to be so much different from version 2.

She and 3 others planned a robbery that turned bad.

She was not present for the robbery.

There were construction workers on site that were witnesses. They were led into a pole barn by the robbers and shot execution style. Charity had no intent on anyone being killed. It ended up being a huge case in Indiana (election year).



When everything was done after the appeals, Charity had time served for a robbery charge.



My film will basically present the facts, and talk about how the system failed both sides.

The question: Did Charity deserve 165 years? She walks away... there are still 3 people dead for her actions.Not innocent. But it depends on the point of view when it comes to the murders.



[edit] More or less, I want it to cause a discussion/debate.

And it will.

She deserved life in prison IMO. Doesn't matter if she pulled the trigger - as you stated there are still 3 people dead because she was part of the felony robbery.



Other injustices of the court system:

1) OJ Simpson found not guilty of murdering 2 people

2) Richard Speck living many years in a camp cupcake style prison with drugs and sex at his wanting call.

 

[LordKOTL]

As long as the fundamental principle of the justice system is about quotas, profit, and prestige, the problems will never be solved.



Unfortunately, human nature means that it will never be about justice.

 

[BigPete]

I believe a big failure is allowing DAs the opportunity to decide what they want to charge someone with. The police are part of this problem as well as they are the main investigators of the crime. Ultimately it is the judge who decides what will be seen. But it is all subjective, the definitions are still not as good as they could/should be.



As Penn and Teller pointed out far too many judges use their conviction rates to get the brownie points at the election booth. It becomes a numbers game in most places where you are only on the good side when you have a lot of convictions (see Robert Haida in St Clair Co IL). It never looks good for anyone if you keep bringing in cases that net you a failed conviction. The emphasis here should be on the DA though. Devil's addvocates will say: If you didn't get a conviction it is not always because you failed to bring the right evidence (see OJ) or present your case in a way that convinced the jury (see OJ again). But if that is the end result then you simply have to remove that DA from their job and replace them.



That all opens a whole different can of worms in this discussion; the DAs don't get paid anywhere near what private litigators make, especially corporate ones. It happens quite often, where a judge or DA are given money by someone, or even political promises during campaign seasons, which are used to sway their opinions. Anytime a judge or DA gets money from a source other than the municipality they serve it should bring notice to the attention of the FBI and that individual should be investigated. That is about the only good measure of 'oversight' for judges and DAs. That could be improved upon.



About the only way to combat all of this is to pay the judges and DAs better, watch them much more closely, and possibly change how judges and DAs receive their positions.

I would rather see a DA try a case and fail in front of a jury than not try at all and let that person roam free where they can commit more crimes. Unfortunaly, as seen in the traffic system, you don't always get trial by jury.



Now if you want to talk about the death penalty...these days it is pretty easy to find the killer with better scientific methods and the loose but highly observable manner that most people communicate (read cell phones, texts, FB, email). If you are found guilty of first degree murder, you should be put to death, with only one chance for appeal.

 

[BigPete]

She deserved life in prison IMO. Doesn't matter if she pulled the trigger - as you stated there are still 3 people dead because she was part of the felony robbery.



Other injustices of the court system:

1) OJ Simpson found not guilty of murdering 2 people

2) Richard Speck living many years in a camp cupcake style prison with drugs and sex at his wanting call.

She should be guilty of nothing. She planned the robbery. She didn't DO anything, she wasn't there. Unless she threatened the lives of those that committed the robberies then she shouldn't be accountable for it happening or the murders for that matter.

 

[Rdrhwke]

2) Richard Speck living many years in a camp cupcake style prison with drugs and sex at his wanting call.

You really need to do your homework before making a post like that.



Speck was incarcerated at Stateville, which is a maximum security facility and anything but a "cupcake" prison.

 

[TSD]

You really need to do your homework before making a post like that.



Speck was incarcerated at Stateville, which is a maximum security facility and anything but a "cupcake" prison.

My best friends dad was a guard and rifle range instructor at Stateville for 25 years. He has some excellent prison rape stories.





His dad was a gun nut too, they got robbed like 5 years ago, and a glock he had was stolen while they were on vacation. Good thing he reported it, his gun was used in a murder in chicago a year later.

She deserved life in prison IMO. Doesn't matter if she pulled the trigger - as you stated there are still 3 people dead because she was part of the felony robbery.



Other injustices of the court system:

1) OJ Simpson found not guilty of murdering 2 people

2) Richard Speck living many years in a camp cupcake style prison with drugs and sex at his wanting call.

Should we just put every criminal in jail for life? Sure she planned a ROBBERY but didn't take part in it, those that did killed some witnesses. I think 7 years in prison fits her involvement. She didn't kill anyone nor pre-meditate killing anyone and wasn't even present at the scene, therefore she isn't even guilty of attempted murder. At best she is guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

 

[TSD]

Heres the full penn and teller episode on criminal justice:



Part 1

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTqb6dFBDwI[/media]



Part 2

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT9RGLxDwPY[/media]

 

[Kerfuffle]

You really need to do your homework before making a post like that.



Speck was incarcerated at Stateville, which is a maximum security facility and anything but a "cupcake" prison.

I did my homework and vividly remember the news piece about a year before Speck died. It was all over the news when the story broke - about him doing drugs and having sex in prison. Sorry but it's the truth.

 

[Kerfuffle]

She should be guilty of nothing. She planned the robbery. She didn't DO anything, she wasn't there. Unless she threatened the lives of those that committed the robberies then she shouldn't be accountable for it happening or the murders for that matter.

Guilty of nothing??? For planning a robbery? And then innocent lives were killed during that robbery that she planned? And that's okay to you? Um....no.



One of the problems with our justice system is people have sympathy for the perpetrator and not the victims. It's sad but true.

 

[Kerfuffle]

Should we just put every criminal in jail for life? Sure she planned a ROBBERY but didn't take part in it, those that did killed some witnesses. I think 7 years in prison fits her involvement. She didn't kill anyone nor pre-meditate killing anyone and wasn't even present at the scene, therefore she isn't even guilty of attempted murder. At best she is guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

I would accept involuntary manslaughter.