The Walking Dead

[Penny Traitor]

how many times are the writers just going to wave their fucking hands at me and poof into existence some wildly successful operation that defies logic.

For serious.

Or at least give me ten seconds of dialogue between Alpha & Beta where Alpha says something like "Use that old tunnel system we found last spring."

Anything!

The Winnebago entrance with standing guards was far too elaborate for a group that just migrates with zombies.

Darryl should have bled out shortly after yankng the knife out of his leg. Alpha was spewing nonsense that made sense to literally no one. And of course, Lidia shows up in the middle of the night because she has just been chilling in the woods "watching you and watching them" for however long now.

And don't get me started on Father Gabe turning into a Punisher comic for ten minutes. They really cannot decide what to do with his character.

I have always taken the writing with a grain of salt knowing the source material is a comic book, but they have been nose diving this season.

 

[Ares]

For serious.

Or at least give me ten seconds of dialogue between Alpha & Beta where Alpha says something like "Use that old tunnel system we found last spring."

Anything!

The Winnebago entrance with standing guards was far too elaborate for a group that just migrates with zombies.

Darryl should have bled out shortly after yankng the knife out of his leg. Alpha was spewing nonsense that made sense to literally no one. And of course, Lidia shows up in the middle of the night because she has just been chilling in the woods "watching you and watching them" for however long now.

And don't get me started on Father Gabe turning into a Punisher comic for ten minutes. They really cannot decide what to do with his character.

I have always taken the writing with a grain of salt knowing the source material is a comic book, but they have been nose diving this season.

I forgot about the tyrant Gabe thing lol.

It seems like, for every character.... once they reach the end of self-discovery they must turn into some sort of monster and either die or get over that hump and return to some semi-boring balance.

Rick: Cop -> Over protective husband/father -> Kinda Psycho Group Leader -> Farmer Rick -> Tyrant Ricktator -> Co-Leader Rick -> Fuck My Dead Kid Rick -> ????

Carol: Domestic Abuse Victim -> Scared Mom -> Grieving Mom -> Badass Carol -> Psycho Carol -> Badass Mom Carol -> Hermit Carol -> Queen Carol -> Psycho Grieving Mom -> Idiot Psycho Carol -> ????

Darryl might be the only semi-stable...

Darryl: Quiet Angry Loner -> Grieving Quiet Angry Loner -> Quiet Angry Loner/w Love Interest

Shane turned into a monster and died
Governor was mostly a monster and died
Terminus monsters all died
Gang who wanted to rape Carl, monsters who died.
Andrea turned into kinda a monster, tried to turn it around, and died in the process


Perhaps Gabe will turn Alexandria into a religious cult

 

[airtime143]

Didnt even bother weighing in on this one. It reeked of a filler episode.

How did the plot advance?

The only plot point relevant was gabriel... despite the madness... pointed out that the whisperers on their own should be easy to turn.

Beyond that...Alpha got fucked up and is angry. But she was coming for the communities anyway.
aryl got fucked up- but how much you wanna bet he is out kicking ass in 24 hours?


... who knows. Maybe there was a point. Maybe daryl getting torn up is a way to open the door for Negan to do the job.

Whatever it is, the plot points for the main story could have been done in 5 minutes.
This was filler. Not even good filler.

 

[Ares]

Didnt even bother weighing in on this one. It reeked of a filler episode.

How did the plot advance?

The only plot point relevant was gabriel... despite the madness... pointed out that the whisperers on their own should be easy to turn.

Beyond that...Alpha got fucked up and is angry. But she was coming for the communities anyway.
aryl got fucked up- but how much you wanna bet he is out kicking ass in 24 hours?


... who knows. Maybe there was a point. Maybe daryl getting torn up is a way to open the door for Negan to do the job.

Whatever it is, the plot points for the main story could have been done in 5 minutes.
This was filler. Not even good filler.

Feels like it was meant to setup a state of chaos and despair, at least for Alexandria.

Maggie return at the head of Hilltop to crush Alpha?

Michonne return with guns?

Doubt Rick makes any form of a return here.

Feels like they are setting up for a final battle of sorts where an outside force comes over the hill like Rohan in Return of the King outside Minas Tirith.

 

[RacerX]

For serious.

Or at least give me ten seconds of dialogue between Alpha & Beta where Alpha says something like "Use that old tunnel system we found last spring."

Anything!

The Winnebago entrance with standing guards was far too elaborate for a group that just migrates with zombies.

Darryl should have bled out shortly after yankng the knife out of his leg. Alpha was spewing nonsense that made sense to literally no one. And of course, Lidia shows up in the middle of the night because she has just been chilling in the woods "watching you and watching them" for however long now.

And don't get me started on Father Gabe turning into a Punisher comic for ten minutes. They really cannot decide what to do with his character.

I have always taken the writing with a grain of salt knowing the source material is a comic book, but they have been nose diving this season.

LOL, yeah the Preacher has gone all Frank Castle, good stuff.

Also, after an indefinite period wilding on her own, Lydia appears with new/clean clothes and washed & brushed hair.

Seems reasonable.

 

[airtime143]

Feels like it was meant to setup a state of chaos and despair, at least for Alexandria.

Maggie return at the head of Hilltop to crush Alpha?

Michonne return with guns?

Doubt Rick makes any form of a return here.

Feels like they are setting up for a final battle of sorts where an outside force comes over the hill like Rohan in Return of the King outside Minas Tirith.

Pure speculation on my part, But I dont expect a maggie return until the commonwealth is in play.
Georgie has to have been a part of that.
Eugene has been talking to a wildcard on the radio... no word on that yet.

There is zero precedent in the comic for the rick missing, Michonne on a voyage storyline... But here is my stab at it.
She is visiting a military compound. Has to be because of the guns.
Either she finds a radio and hears from the 3 ring people who took rick... hears a tale of the group, or hears from anne or someone who has seen anne.
Maybe even something as innocuous as someone at the compound heard the tale of the blown up bridge, and knows the dude who did it is still alive elsewhere.

Not putting spoiler tags on this because there is no precedent- just speculation... but I still believe rick is being held "hostage" by a group seeking a cure... via force or need for treatment... or even an extension of the hospital people in atlanta. "We fixed you, you are our slave"
That story never wrapped up. Heath never wrapped up. there is a chance heath is there, the cops are there, and rick is there. (heath, because whoever took him had a key card-technology and security).
They would be the final enemy for the show.



My hope is going forward- Negan finishes alpha.
Beta goes on the warpath, Michonne returns with hardware to wipe out the hoard( Napalm would be great- smoke em all in the cave)
Eugene leads them to the next enemy/group.
Maggie, Morgan, and Ginny are part of the group.
Struggle ensues, Movies come out, Rick saves the day, all groups wiped out save the communities in their new location, Cure is dispensed.

Looking towards the final scene of the final episode- there are 2 possibilities in my mind.
We experience through his eyes, Rick dying and turning.
Rick dies and does not turn.

 

[Penny Traitor]

The only plot point relevant was gabriel... despite the madness... pointed out that the whisperers on their own should be easy to turn

I don't even know how this is supposed to be a great revelation either. Look how the communities live and look how the Whisperers live. If you were dangled a spot in one of the communities over wearing corpse skin and sleeping in the dirt...which do you pick?

 

[Ares]

LOL, yeah the Preacher has gone all Frank Castle, good stuff.

Also, after an indefinite period wilding on her own, Lydia appears with new/clean clothes and washed & brushed hair.

Seems reasonable.

And a nice bow with solid looking arrows.... she is either a Master Fletcher or raided a Dicks Sporting Goods

 

[Ares]

Pure speculation on my part, But I dont expect a maggie return until the commonwealth is in play.
Georgie has to have been a part of that.
Eugene has been talking to a wildcard on the radio... no word on that yet.

There is zero precedent in the comic for the rick missing, Michonne on a voyage storyline... But here is my stab at it.
She is visiting a military compound. Has to be because of the guns.
Either she finds a radio and hears from the 3 ring people who took rick... hears a tale of the group, or hears from anne or someone who has seen anne.
Maybe even something as innocuous as someone at the compound heard the tale of the blown up bridge, and knows the dude who did it is still alive elsewhere.

Not putting spoiler tags on this because there is no precedent- just speculation... but I still believe rick is being held "hostage" by a group seeking a cure... via force or need for treatment... or even an extension of the hospital people in atlanta. "We fixed you, you are our slave"
That story never wrapped up. Heath never wrapped up. there is a chance heath is there, the cops are there, and rick is there. (heath, because whoever took him had a key card-technology and security).
They would be the final enemy for the show.



My hope is going forward- Negan finishes alpha.
Beta goes on the warpath, Michonne returns with hardware to wipe out the hoard( Napalm would be great- smoke em all in the cave)
Eugene leads them to the next enemy/group.
Maggie, Morgan, and Ginny are part of the group.
Struggle ensues, Movies come out, Rick saves the day, all groups wiped out save the communities in their new location, Cure is dispensed.

Looking towards the final scene of the final episode- there are 2 possibilities in my mind.
We experience through his eyes, Rick dying and turning.
Rick dies and does not turn.

One sorta-flaw in all this...

You are operating under the notion that this will all come together and end somewhat harmoniously between TWD and FTWD.... and if so it would probably have to happen like in the next couple years I'd think.

However, AMC is launching a 3rd show and expanding the universe even more.

We don't know how that show will play into the universe.... will it connect with either of the first 2 shows?

I get the feeling they might end Rick with those movies, and launch TWD and FTWD into even more uncharted territory.

Unless Andrew Lincoln agrees to return to the show... he's gone... Michonne is gone....

The fact they kept Judith alive and began developing her as a character makes me wonder if the next evolution of the show has her as the main character?

 

[airtime143]

I don't even know how this is supposed to be a great revelation either. Look how the communities live and look how the Whisperers live. If you were dangled a spot in one of the communities over wearing corpse skin and sleeping in the dirt...which do you pick?

You remind me of another issue I had- The whisperer chick saying "alpha has a way of making you forget".

Great. Now she is a master hypnotist.

I can totally see Alpha doing what she does by force and intimidation. She has a monster henchman, and at any point if someone got the better of them in camp, it would be instant death for them if alpha could call in the hoard to kill them all.
I can see the survivors of one of her attacks thinking that was the only choice.
What are they gonna do, join a community that alpha is about to destroy?

But long term, someone would have stuck a knife in her head by now.

IMO, the whisperers should have been played more like the wolves. Nihilists using a readily available resource to get what they want.

The whole whisperer lifestyle has zero advantage if you sleep in the dirt.

So what is the point? Unless your goal is to wipe out humanity and live as best you can, the whisperer lifestyle is no better than putting on a mask and wandering the world alone. It would be far less dangerous and demeaning.

 

[airtime143]

One sorta-flaw in all this...

You are operating under the notion that this will all come together and end somewhat harmoniously between TWD and FTWD.... and if so it would probably have to happen like in the next couple years I'd think.

However, AMC is launching a 3rd show and expanding the universe even more.

We don't know how that show will play into the universe.... will it connect with either of the first 2 shows?

I get the feeling they might end Rick with those movies, and launch TWD and FTWD into even more uncharted territory.

Unless Andrew Lincoln agrees to return to the show... he's gone... Michonne is gone....

The fact they kept Judith alive and began developing her as a character makes me wonder if the next evolution of the show has her as the main character?

Lincoln leaving destroyed the flow of the story and threw it in to dissarray.
They have to bring it all to some sort of conclusion no matter how slapdash it is.

The commonwealth and movies and helicopter people are good for at least 4 more years the way they stretch shit.
By then they will either find a new driving force of the show that brings in viwers and move forward, or continue casting about until AMC makes them end it.

As for spinoff shows- We have a 10 year span from outbreak till now. They can run that show along any timeline they wish.
They can also run 10 other shows in different locations at different times.

The only reason I think TWD, FTWD, and the movies need to align is because Rick was the show, and it would be a bitch move to make him abandon his woman and daughter and live a full life afterwards.
FTWD just has a ton of things pointing to Ginny and the commonwealth, and eugene is presumably talking to someone from there.
Beyond that, TV rules almost demand Morgan find rick again. THe only fitting way to end it all if they are still alive is to end it together the way it started.

 

[Ares]

You remind me of another issue I had- The whisperer chick saying "alpha has a way of making you forget".

Great. Now she is a master hypnotist.

I can totally see Alpha doing what she does by force and intimidation. She has a monster henchman, and at any point if someone got the better of them in camp, it would be instant death for them if alpha could call in the hoard to kill them all.
I can see the survivors of one of her attacks thinking that was the only choice.
What are they gonna do, join a community that alpha is about to destroy?

But long term, someone would have stuck a knife in her head by now.

IMO, the whisperers should have been played more like the wolves. Nihilists using a readily available resource to get what they want.

The whole whisperer lifestyle has zero advantage if you sleep in the dirt.

So what is the point? Unless your goal is to wipe out humanity and live as best you can, the whisperer lifestyle is no better than putting on a mask and wandering the world alone. It would be far less dangerous and demeaning.

From what I gleaned in the comics vs Whisperers in the show...

Whisperers under Alpha are much like a cult, and they believe in returning to this animal-like form/society.

The strong survive and dominate the weak.

Idk if it was always, but I wanna say they ate babies or fed them to the Walkers.

Rape was not just allowed, but expected.

Any kind of elevated human society was shunned.... washing, shelter, clothing, etc.

Alpha holds a very animal dominance over the Whisperers and they fear her violence/brutality.

The show version is a bit confusing because they don't really frame the Whisperers as followers of this cult-like guiding principal of returning to animal ways.

They kinda do if you are looking for it, but they didn't bash you over the head with it when they were introduced and they turned Alpha into more of a psychological terror which elevates Alpha as a leader of a group of people, rather than a cult of people who think the best way to survive is to be like animals.

Again with even a few bits thrown in at the Whisperer camp, you could steer the viewer towards that perception....

Alpha and Beta are talking and observe a male Whisperer wrestle a female to the ground and begin to assault her...

Beta grunts his displeasure

Alpha says "Oh come now, it is our way Beta, the strong take what they want"

If writers were none too squeamish...

Beta grunts his agreement, pulls the dude off the female and KO's him, then drags her away to do it himself.

Also could have had some fights in the Whisperer camp, like while Henry was there or while Negan is there... fights over food, women, sleeping space, etc...

In this frame you'd see them as under Alpha's cult-spell, but also many of them would be engrossed in the society because they find a place within it... they find safety... they find food.... they find access to sex if they can fight for it.

There's an appeal to those things, and if you see Alpha destroy polite societies you have even more buy-in because you believe anything outside of her animal society will fall.

 

[Penny Traitor]

From what I gleaned in the comics vs Whisperers in the show...

Sure seems like this comics version of the Whisperers are far more complex and even more psychologically horrifying than this television version that seems to have little interest in broadening their antagonist beyond basic antagonizing.

On paper, the Whisperers should be the most terrifying thing left in this world and they have been mostly a bunch of extras in rubber masks. Kinda disappointing.

 

[Ares]

Sure seems like this comics version of the Whisperers are far more complex and even more psychologically horrifying than this television version that seems to have little interest in broadening their antagonist beyond basic antagonizing.

On paper, the Whisperers should be the most terrifying thing left in this world and they have been mostly a bunch of extras in rubber masks. Kinda disappointing.

I will say I was very interested initially when it sounded like semi-smart Walkers hunting for Eugene and Rosita.

They shoulda kept the mystery a bit longer IMO

And what is revealed after you find out they are people dressed in Walker skins should have been more terrifying than talking Walkers, not less.

The writers have opted to hand wave the Whisperers into tactical/strategic geniuses and wash over the violence that could/would make them scary.

I think in "attempting to be responsible with the level of violence" they show, they wound up neutering the Whisperers of any real shock factor.

Even the heads on pikes... I'll be honest I thought "Good, fewer shitty characters"... tho I'll miss Enid because she was at least somewhat attractive. Other than Henry, and even he was a stretch.... the heads on pikes was a pretty weak selection of characters IMO.

 

[Penny Traitor]

And what is revealed after you find out they are people dressed in Walker skins should have been more terrifying than talking Walkers, not less.

So much this.

It feels like a serious miss at bringing some genuine horror back to the show over the post-apocalyptic prime time drama it's become. Instead they immediately humanize the Whisperers with the whole Lydia/Henry bit and now they just come off as Saviors in rubber masks.

Again...such a disappointment.

 

[Ares]

So much this.

It feels like a serious miss at bringing some genuine horror back to the show over the post-apocalyptic prime time drama it's become. Instead they immediately humanize the Whisperers with the whole Lydia/Henry bit and now they just come off as Saviors in rubber masks.

Again...such a disappointment.

Even if you have the Lydia capture thing, they could have played that in.

Lydia could have been far more terrified of going back... they could have used her as a story tool to build horror and dread around the Whisperers, while continuing to keep them largely a mystery.

And you could make a logical argument that as Lydia was Alpha's daughter, she was subject to the
trauma and brutality of that society, but spared some of the worst stuff which is how she isn't fully a cult member.

They hit those notes a little bit, but didn't really build on them and almost immediately revealed Alpha and the rest out in the open in front of Hilltop.

If you think about that period of mystery behind Negan... that was pretty well done.

You heard his name... the fear in the voices of The Saviors.... the implied horrors that he would visit upon them.

Then the mass operation to herd Rick's group into the trap.... which btw is believable in comparison to Whisperer tunneling because at the time I didn't know the Saviors.... I have to believe they have the numbers and capabilities to do that, because the storyteller is introducing me to them and already alluded to them being a large organization.

And finally that reveal... all that built up fear and tension and dread... and then JDM kills it as Negan and you see the utter brutality visited on some characters we actually care about.

Whisperers they offered mystery for like 1 episode, then revealed the main villain and her group, and humanized her and her daughter, so she comes off as only a partial antagonist.

From what I know of the comics, Alpha is a good villain and the Whisperers are an engaging group of antagonists, but the TV version feels like a major letdown.

 

[Penny Traitor]

From what I know of the comics, Alpha is a good villain and the Whisperers are an engaging group of antagonists, but the TV version feels like a major letdown.

No doubt. Also feels like a few of us in this thread could have written it better.

Oh well...swing and a miss. Let's get Negan some more screentime now. Preferably clothed.

Once this season is over, I think I am going to get back into reading the comics. I am not really worried about spoilers anymore and have been meaning to for a while. I only got as far as the final showdown with The Governor and stopped so I could just enjoy the show.

 

[Ares]

I feel the need to follow up my last post with...

How can TWD writers/producers do so well at times like with Negan and The Saviors, at least the build up and the reveal and that first season where they had everyone subjugated.... but then suck ass at other stretches.

It isn't like they are writing or producing for a wildly different story.... I would argue they are getting good casting/acting.... I think Lydia, Alpha, and Beta are all well played.

The bones are there most of the time, but more and more the execution of the story both in writing and production seems inadequate.

So many story holes or hand-waving that I feel you could write at least bare minimum bridges/explanations that are not difficult to add.

 

[Ares]

No doubt. Also feels like a few of us in this thread could have written it better.

Oh well...swing and a miss. Let's get Negan some more screentime now. Preferably clothed.

Once this season is over, I think I am going to get back into reading the comics. I am not really worried about spoilers anymore and have been meaning to for a while. I only got as far as the final showdown with The Governor and stopped so I could just enjoy the show.

I still haven't gotten a real Negan/Beta showdown complete with srs Negan shit talking to Beta.

If I don't get that... I will be incredibly disappointed.... if there's one scene they should have taken direct from the comic... it is this one...

 

[airtime143]

I feel the need to follow up my last post with...

How can TWD writers/producers do so well at times like with Negan and The Saviors, at least the build up and the reveal and that first season where they had everyone subjugated.... but then suck ass at other stretches.

It isn't like they are writing or producing for a wildly different story.... I would argue they are getting good casting/acting.... I think Lydia, Alpha, and Beta are all well played.

The bones are there most of the time, but more and more the execution of the story both in writing and production seems inadequate.

So many story holes or hand-waving that I feel you could write at least bare minimum bridges/explanations that are not difficult to add.

You have to put the shit storylines right in Angela Kangs lap.


She took over in season 9- and I loved the show to that point. everything was built up and executed well.
every storyline went somewhere for the most part, and multiple stories hit the climax at the same time.

From the Kang takeover on, the stories have been a mess.
The ridiculous visit to the museum to open the season, to the flashback about Michonne and daryls scars, to the relatively unexplained rift between Michonne and all the other communities.

Kangs version of this show has been loaded with filler shows and story lines and scattered filler...not to mention the ridiculous scene where Negan "saves" judith. For fucks sake, I work in far worse weather than that for hours at a stretch.


We got to see in depth looks at henry panting after lydia, interpersonal bullshit in magnas group by the buttload... but what about eugene? Zeke? not a word.


The worst of the worst though is Maggie getting the Chuck Cunningham treatment.
(richie and joanies brother on happy days. There for the first 2 seasons- went upstairs one night, and was never seen or mentioned again)