Vinny Del Negro loving 1st coaching experience

[cool007]

Vinny just doesn't have it though.

I have no confidence in him calling a successful play out of timeouts 95% of the time - possibly 99% of the time.

He just sucks.

 

[Ralphb07]

dougthonus wrote:

That is a coach making a decision which was a good one by Vinny and is a overall plus with Vinny. The injuries or whatever might be the reason but Vinny now knows the best players on his team and he sticks with them no matter what and that pays off.

I don't think that's been true. He played Gooden/Noc/Gray a ton of minutes that I think would have been far better off going to Tyrus/Noah.

Early in the season Doug and that proves the point of him GETTING BETTER doesn't it. He played a lot of people feeling everone out but has now stuck with his players. There has been plenty of games he could of use Gray lately and he hasn't. This is why I wanna see a full season of him playing the guys he wants to battle with and see what he can improve on next year.

IMO the first part of the season was to play everyone and see who fits with Rose and who doesn't.

Edit: Also the roster was all screwed up but it's better now. That was a tough roster for anyone to deal with and Skiles couldn't get Noah and Tyrus any time with it and he didn't even have Hughes and Gooden @ the time and look at what Boylan did with it.

 

[collisrost]

About the microanalyzing of the couple of games we lost because of dumb plays, I'm sure that every team loses a couple of games a year on dumb plays. I'm not saying it's okay for your players to throw bad passes off the inbounds, but we should expect that a couple of costly mistakes will be made every season. In the grand scheme of things the screwups that the opponents make which win you the game and the scremups which your team makes largely even out.

 

[charity stripe]

Ralphb07 wrote:

Did you watch every single Casey game with Minny? How do you know that his .500 record wasn't more of having KG than good coaching?

As much as people like to trash Vinny the team is 16th in offensive rating and 17th in defense which isn't great but also isn't as bad as people make it out to be. i would also bet that our offensive rating has been much higher since the trade.

Having a rookie, 2nd year and 3rd year guys starting I don't see the 16 in offense and 17th in defense being that bad. Keep in mind that Tyrus played jack **** in his 1st two seasons so this is pretty much his 1st year of actually playing and he was considered raw when drafted.

I don't see how Shaw or Casey were locks to do better. Also Shaw runs the triangle and the young players couldn't get the hang of Vinny's offense which the triangle is a lot harder to learn.

I did not watch every single Timberwolves game that year, but it was a hot topic that year because everyone expected them to be among the league's worst teams. The fact that Casey had that team in playoff contention was a pleasant surprise for most NBA followers. KG was never a guy who could carry a team by himself, he was on some awful Minnesota teams if you recall. That team under Casey, ouside of KG, was lead by Mark Blount and Ricky Davis. Not much talent there, which was why people said Casey got the shaft when he was fired.

The Bulls have scored a lot of points this season under VDN, but as I said before I think its because the roster is built that way. Many posters have noticed that it seems like VDN's offensive schemes are mostly players just taking turns running the pick and roll or pick and pop. I don't put much stock in those ratings.

Also, I don't think it was a given that Shaw would run the triangle.

Let me just reiterate my main point. I'm not saying VDN should be fired this summer. I was just countering your point about no good coaching being available last summer.

 

[dougthonus]

Early in the season Doug and that proves the point of him GETTING BETTER doesn't it.

No, because he didn't make any changes until he had no choice. Until Gooden was out we weren't seeing Tyrus/Noah a lot. Then we he had no choice he played them a little more, but he still played Noc a ton and used Gray a bunch.

It seems much like Tyrus's rookie year where he only played Tyrus after Nocioni got injured.

Meet the Parents:

Jack Byrnes: I'm just curious, did you pick the color of the car?
Greg Focker: Uh no, the guy at the window did, why?
Jack Byrnes: Well they say geniuses pick green.
Greg Focker: Oh.
Jack Byrnes: But you didn't pick it.

Edit: Also the roster was all screwed up but it's better now. That was a tough roster for anyone to deal with and Skiles couldn't get Noah and Tyrus any time with it and he didn't even have Hughes and Gooden @ the time and look at what Boylan did with it.

I disagree. It was an easy roster to deal with.
Start: Rose, Gordon, Deng, Gooden, Noah
Primary bench: Hinrich, Noc, Tyrus

You could swap Noah/Tyrus if you wanted

Once Hinrich got hurt, then Thabo takes his bench role.

Our issues of having to play Hughes/Gray were manufactured by a coach who didn't see that this was a really horrible idea early on.

 

[dougthonus]

I did not watch every single Timberwolves game that year, but it was a hot topic that year because everyone expected them to be among the league's worst teams. The fact that Casey had that team in playoff contention was a pleasant surprise for most NBA followers. KG was never a guy who could carry a team by himself, he was on some awful Minnesota teams if you recall. That team under Casey, ouside of KG, was lead by Mark Blount and Ricky Davis. Not much talent there, which was why people said Casey got the shaft when he was fired.

While KG was in Minnesota, if you exclude his rookie season, the worst they ever did was 40 wins (sophomore season) until Dwyane Casey was coach. Then they won 33 games his first year as coach. They were 20-20 when Casey was fired and then went completely in the tank in his second season. I agree that Casey was doing very well that year as coach.

Granted in Casey's first season they lost Sprewell and Cassell which is why there was a decline, but I wanted to point out that the team was never awful with KG prior to Casey excluding KG's rookie season. Every year after that they were at least average and most of the time above average.

 

[Ralphb07]

charity stripe wrote:

Ralphb07 wrote:

Did you watch every single Casey game with Minny? How do you know that his .500 record wasn't more of having KG than good coaching?

As much as people like to trash Vinny the team is 16th in offensive rating and 17th in defense which isn't great but also isn't as bad as people make it out to be. i would also bet that our offensive rating has been much higher since the trade.

Having a rookie, 2nd year and 3rd year guys starting I don't see the 16 in offense and 17th in defense being that bad. Keep in mind that Tyrus played jack **** in his 1st two seasons so this is pretty much his 1st year of actually playing and he was considered raw when drafted.

I don't see how Shaw or Casey were locks to do better. Also Shaw runs the triangle and the young players couldn't get the hang of Vinny's offense which the triangle is a lot harder to learn.

I did not watch every single Timberwolves game that year, but it was a hot topic that year because everyone expected them to be among the league's worst teams. The fact that Casey had that team in playoff contention was a pleasant surprise for most NBA followers. KG was never a guy who could carry a team by himself, he was on some awful Minnesota teams if you recall. That team under Casey, ouside of KG, was lead by Mark Blount and Ricky Davis. Not much talent there, which was why people said Casey got the shaft when he was fired.

The Bulls have scored a lot of points this season under VDN, but as I said before I think its because the roster is built that way. Many posters have noticed that it seems like VDN's offensive schemes are mostly players just taking turns running the pick and roll or pick and pop. I don't put much stock in those ratings.

Also, I don't think it was a given that Shaw would run the triangle.

Let me just reiterate my main point. I'm not saying VDN should be fired this summer. I was just countering your point about no good coaching being available last summer.

There is a article that was floated around RealGM last year with Shaw and he believes in the triangle, he would of ran it.

Casey still had KG and Doug pointed out that Minny never won under 40 games with KG prior to Casey(Besides KG rookie year)

My point is you can't say Casey and Shaw are better than Vinny we don't know and Vinny 1st year seems to be better than Casey's.

It's the coach's job to use the roster in the proper way so I hate it when people say well the roster is built to score so that's why it happens. With Casey maybe it doesn't. Maybe he doesn't want a up and down game.

Vinny has the team @38-40 and winning 9 of 12. Regardless of who you think is the main reason for it the coach's get the W's and L's. How much better would we of been with a healthy Kirk and Lu all season.

 

[dougthonus]

It's the coach's job to use the roster in the proper way so I hate it when people say well the roster is built to score so that's why it happens. With Casey maybe it doesn't. Maybe he doesn't want a up and down game.

Vinny has the team @38-40 and winning 9 of 12. Regardless of who you think is the main reason for it the coach's get the W's and L's. How much better would we of been with a healthy Kirk and Lu all season.

Since the all star break, this team is on a 50 win pace if you pro-rate that out over a season, so I have very few complaints about our record since that point, and I agree that a lot of the complaining about VDN is microanalyzing.

I'm concerned about how frequently we struggle in the half court and how we struggle to close games, but that simply may be something we have to live with as a team which plays it's best at a very high pace. We may have to realize that high paced teams struggle with those things because they can't successfully slow down the game, and if we could do that then we wouldn't be a high paced team.

VDN's early part of the season was really poor, but I do agree somewhat with your assertion that he wanted to give everyone a chance. My counter point is that this isn't t-ball. You don't need to give everyone a chance just because they're on the roster, however, he seems to have learned his lesson since then and has tightened the rotation considerably.

I think a great coach would have won 50 with this team this year. I think a good coach probably would have won 45. I think an average coach would probably do about what VDN is doing, and I think a bad coach would have done a lot worse.

To VDN's credit, he has navigated the waters fairly well over the season, some things that seemed like problems early on aren't problems now. A bad coach would have had the roster and team completely implode on him, and that hasn't happened. The strong finish probably has him earning some respect in the locker room as well.

 

[Ralphb07]

No, because he didn't make any changes until he had no choice. Until Gooden was out we weren't seeing Tyrus/Noah a lot. Then we he had no choice he played them a little more, but he still played Noc a ton and used Gray a bunch.

It seems much like Tyrus's rookie year where he only played Tyrus after Nocioni got injured

.

Tyrus Thomas in 2008/09 got 19.9 minutes in Novemeber and 21.9 minutes in December which he had a bad start to the season

Tyrus Thomas in the 2007/08 got 20 minutes in November and went down to 13 minutes in December.

You notice the difference Doug? So maybe it's not the minutes he's playing now but Vinny got him enough to help him develop. A player doesn't need a X amount of minutes to develop. What you're looking to do is get the player more consistent minutes which Vinny did.

We had a major major roster glut and in order to make trades you gotta play players. IMO though it wasn't that much if Larry didn't get his early stint maybe a NY offer doesn't come along which seems to be a nice deal giving us some trade options.

Same with Noc. Even though his season might not of been great he was still playing. If Noc doesn't play we do not get Salmons and Miller.

So Vinny had to battle through that giving the young guys enough minutes and also making sure the guys we wanna trade had enough minutes.

Also he played Gray a lot when Noah wasn't in shape to do anything and since Noah has been in shape we don't see Gray anymore. Noah couldn't last the 1st part of the season and you can't blame Vinny for that.

IMO from day one of the season Paxson knew that Gooden,Noc and Hughes were the most likely to be dealt and you gotta play guys you wanna trade.

This is why I wanna see Vinny when he knows who his guys are from day one which we will get this summer/season. If he flops he flops and we fire him but there was so much going on this season that we can't blame him for all the stuff you guys do.

 

[dougthonus]

Tyrus Thomas in 2008/09 got 19.9 minutes in Novemeber and 21.9 minutes in December which he had a bad start to the season

Tyrus Thomas in the 2007/08 got 20 minutes in November and went down to 13 minutes in December.

You notice the difference Doug? So maybe it's not the minutes he's playing now but Vinny got him enough to help him develop. A player doesn't need a X amount of minutes to develop. What you're looking to do is get the player more consistent minutes which Vinny did.

I disagree with your assertion that players don't need X amount of minutes to develop. Who knows what X is for each player, but there is a very direct correlation between minutes and development. If Tyrus had played 30 minutes a game since he was drafted, he would probably be a significantly better player right now.

We had a major major roster glut and in order to make trades you gotta play players. IMO though it wasn't that much if Larry didn't get his early stint maybe a NY offer doesn't come along which seems to be a nice deal giving us some trade options.

Same with Noc. Even though his season might not of been great he was still playing. If Noc doesn't play we do not get Salmons and Miller.

This may be true or it may not be true. Sacramento did their trade primarily for short term salary relief sacrificing long term salary relief. NY did it's trade even though Hughes was benched for a considerable time prior to the trade.

Either way, unless VDN was only playing them so they could be traded, then he gets no credit for the decision. It will be a case where Paxson made the most of VDN's moves, not VDN purposefully creating a good situation to remove the players from the roster.

So Vinny had to battle through that giving the young guys enough minutes and also making sure the guys we wanna trade had enough minutes.

This assumes that VDN did this for that purpose or was directed to. If so, then I agree, but I find the assertion that this is true to be extraordinarily unlikely. Nor do I think Hughes playing time had anything to do with him being traded.

IMO from day one of the season Paxson knew that Gooden,Noc and Hughes were the most likely to be dealt and you gotta play guys you wanna trade.

If Paxson issued that order then I'll agree with you. I just find that idea to be ridiculous.

This is why I wanna see Vinny when he knows who his guys are from day one which we will get this summer/season. If he flops he flops and we fire him but there was so much going on this season that we can't blame him for all the stuff you guys do.

As I said in the previous post, I'm not upset with VDN's total body of work. I just give him very little credit for playing Tyrus and Noah as I still don't think he's played them enough. Even now, I don't think he plays Noah enough. I will give him credit for fully committing to Rose. I believe he's help speed Rose's development quite a bit.

 

[Wade Wilson]

Ralphb07 wrote:

No, because he didn't make any changes until he had no choice. Until Gooden was out we weren't seeing Tyrus/Noah a lot. Then we he had no choice he played them a little more, but he still played Noc a ton and used Gray a bunch.

It seems much like Tyrus's rookie year where he only played Tyrus after Nocioni got injured

.

Tyrus Thomas in 2008/09 got 19.9 minutes in Novemeber and 21.9 minutes in December which he had a bad start to the season

Tyrus Thomas in the 2007/08 got 20 minutes in November and went down to 13 minutes in December.

You notice the difference Doug? So maybe it's not the minutes he's playing now but Vinny got him enough to help him develop. A player doesn't need a X amount of minutes to develop. What you're looking to do is get the player more consistent minutes which Vinny did.

We had a major major roster glut and in order to make trades you gotta play players. IMO though it wasn't that much if Larry didn't get his early stint maybe a NY offer doesn't come along which seems to be a nice deal giving us some trade options.

Same with Noc. Even though his season might not of been great he was still playing. If Noc doesn't play we do not get Salmons and Miller.

So Vinny had to battle through that giving the young guys enough minutes and also making sure the guys we wanna trade had enough minutes.

Also he played Gray a lot when Noah wasn't in shape to do anything and since Noah has been in shape we don't see Gray anymore. Noah couldn't last the 1st part of the season and you can't blame Vinny for that.

IMO from day one of the season Paxson knew that Gooden,Noc and Hughes were the most likely to be dealt and you gotta play guys you wanna trade.

This is why I wanna see Vinny when he knows who his guys are from day one which we will get this summer/season. If he flops he flops and we fire him but there was so much going on this season that we can't blame him for all the stuff you guys do.

Vinny did have some challenges presented to him this year, true, but I haven't really seen anything that has impressed me personally where I can say that I've seen growth. The team has improved because Noah got in shape, Tyrus started playing better, Kirk got healthy, and then we got guys in Salmons, Miler, and Thomas who perfectly fit Vinny's spread the floor, iso, pick and roll offense. I also think you can argue that the injuries to an extent saved Vinny from having to deal with having to deal with any roster glut. Early in the season, There was some question over who would lose minutes between Rose, Gordon, Kirk, and Hughes. Hughes gets injured in the preseason, problem solved. Then Kirk got hurt two games before Hughes comes back. I never really saw a roster glut up front. We've never had more than three bigs on this roster at one time who were worthy of seeing regular NBA court time.


I can't think of a situation where a coach has been able to overhaul his team's defensive philosophy from one year to the next without there having been big roster turnover. It sucks for Vinny, but there is no reason to risk wasting a year on his development if we have a chance to get a guy who is a surer bet. We have young players who have to develop, and we want to put ourselves in a position where we're attractive to potential Head coaching is a put up or shut up, sink or swim job.

 

[Ralphb07]

I disagree with your assertion that players don't need X amount of minutes to develop. Who knows what X is for each player, but there is a very direct correlation between minutes and development. If Tyrus had played 30 minutes a game since he was drafted, he would probably be a significantly better player right now.

Development is a lot more than playing 30 minutes a game. It's what you teach them in practice and make them work on while not being in Bulls practice. They do need minutes and I would say at least 20 minutes. If you play a guy 20 minutes IMO that is enough time. I see often that all people bring up is minutes and it seems the bar is too high of what they feel the minutes should be.

With the way the roster was I don't think 20 minutes is that low and wouldn't say Vinny didn't do a good job getting these guys minutes early on.

This may be true or it may not be true. Sacramento did their trade primarily for short term salary relief sacrificing long term salary relief. NY did it's trade even though Hughes was benched for a considerable time prior to the trade.

Either way, unless VDN was only playing them so they could be traded, then he gets no credit for the decision. It will be a case where Paxson made the most of VDN's moves, not VDN purposefully creating a good situation to remove the players from the roster.

If Noc doesn't play the trade doesn't happen Doug and that's the bottom line. They took Gooden because of his expiring but Noc being locked into his contract isn't traded if he sits on the Bulls bench.

As far as Vinny goes Paxson and Vinny talk a lot and Paxson is telling Vinny what's going on as far as trades Vinny is not clueless. I'm not saying Vinny is some genuis but you can't sit here and tell me Paxson's not telling him these are the guys we need to get minutes too. I'm not saying it was Vinny choice or wasn't just bringing up that there was a reason of those players playing.

If Paxson issued that order then I'll agree with you. I just find that idea to be ridiculous.

How is that ridiculous that Paxson and Vinny were on the same page as what needed to be done? You don't think they talk about the roster and what they need to do. I'm not saying Paxson told him to play them 38 minutes which neither played just that they both knew the gameplan and both understood that they needed to play in order to trade them

 

[dougthonus]

Development is a lot more than playing 30 minutes a game. It's what you teach them in practice and make them work on while not being in Bulls practice. They do need minutes and I would say at least 20 minutes. If you play a guy 20 minutes IMO that is enough time. I see often that all people bring up is minutes and it seems the bar is too high of what they feel the minutes should be.

Development is more than playing 30 minutes a game. However, being an electrical engineer is more than going to school for electrical engineering. Yes, Tyrus / Noah / any young player need to do more than just play to develop, but the playing time is critical. It's not the only thing, but it's a very important thing.

With the way the roster was I don't think 20 minutes is that low and wouldn't say Vinny didn't do a good job getting these guys minutes early on.

I think it was way too low if your goal was to develop them. I think it's way too low right now as well. There are times where Noah is playing really well and only plays 20 minutes. Times where not playing him seems to detract from our winning.

If Noc doesn't play the trade doesn't happen Doug and that's the bottom line. They took Gooden because of his expiring but Noc being locked into his contract isn't traded if he sits on the Bulls bench.

This is like giving Paxson credit for the Bulls winning the lottery. If they didn't finish 9th last year we woudln't have Rose bottom line, so Paxson must be a good GM for putting together a team that missed the playoffs in order to capitalize on getting Rose.

You're crediting VDN for doing something that was a result of his idiocy and saying he deserves props for being a big enough idiot to create a situation that worked out for us. If VDN said he was specifically playing these guys to trade them then I'd agree with you, but that clearly was not the case with Hughes, who played exactly until the point where Hinrich came back.

He could have played and develop Thabo instead of Hughes, but he choose not to.

As far as Vinny goes Paxson and Vinny talk a lot and Paxson is telling Vinny what's going on as far as trades Vinny is not clueless. I'm not saying Vinny is some genuis but you can't sit here and tell me Paxson's not telling him these are the guys we need to get minutes too. I'm not saying it was Vinny choice or wasn't just bringing up that there was a reason of those players playing.

I can sit here and say that, because I really don't believe Paxson told VDN to play Noc / Hughes early in the season instead of Tyrus / Noah / Thabo in order to build trade value. At that point it was just as / more likely that we'd have traded players in the group that didn't play as much.

If we had played Tyrus / Thabo more and they looked better earlier, then we may have gotten Amare Stoudemire in trade instead, but because they weren't viewed as valuable enough Phoenix balked.

How is that ridiculous that Paxson and Vinny were on the same page as what needed to be done? You don't think they talk about the roster and what they need to do. I'm not saying Paxson told him to play them 38 minutes which neither played just that they both knew the gameplan and both understood that they needed to play in order to trade them

You're viewing what needed to be done through a prism as if it was the only thing that could have been done. Raising Tyrus, Noah, Thabo's trade value would have given us more valuable trades.

I also disagree strongly with your assertion about this relating to Hughes at all. Raising Thabo's trade value would have helped far more than raising Hughes trade value as far as our flexibility.

Gooden was traded for a team to save salary not for his on court ability. He had barely played in the past month or 2 when he was acquired. Hughes was acquired for equal length contracts and cap space, and the Knicks didn't give up any usable players for him. I don't think that trade was remotely linked to Hughes on court ability being proven this season.

 

[Ralphb07]

I think it was way too low if your goal was to develop them. I think it's way too low right now as well. There are times where Noah is playing really well and only plays 20 minutes. Times where not playing him seems to detract from our winning.

Bottom line is this is what happen. The young guys though not to what many wanted got more minutes early on under Vinny than in previous years and a trade was made to increase and give them even more minutes. There no way around that.

This is like giving Paxson credit for the Bulls winning the lottery. If they didn't finish 9th last year we woudln't have Rose bottom line, so Paxson must be a good GM for putting together a team that missed the playoffs in order to capitalize on getting Rose.

You're crediting VDN for doing something that was a result of his idiocy and saying he deserves props for being a big enough idiot to create a situation that worked out for us. If VDN said he was specifically playing these guys to trade them then I'd agree with you, but that clearly was not the case with Hughes, who played exactly until the point where Hinrich came back.

He could have played and develop Thabo instead of Hughes, but he choose not to.

Noc played less under Vinny than his previous years besides his rookie so it's not like Vinny overused him.

The NBA is business first. You own a chain of retail stores and one store doesn't perfom well so you want to sell it. Do you just shut it down showing zero sales and try to sell it or keep it open showing low sales but still showing something? It's the same thing with players and the NBA. You can't just sit every player and expect to trade them down the line.

You bring up Thabo but wasn't he traded? So that means he wasn't in the Bulls plans right? Could that be why he didn't play over Hughes? Who is harder to trade of the two? Hughes or Thabo? Are you getting my point, playing Hughes while Kirk being out might of made a trade eaiser to happen.

I'm not saying VDN should get credit all I'm saying is that he shouldn't be bashed for the playing time early on, it should be a non issue but it's not people bring it up.

Also how much clearler could Paxson of been when he said that this year was about who DID and DIDN'T fit with Rose and that's what happen early on.

I can sit here and say that, because I really don't believe Paxson told VDN to play Noc / Hughes early in the season instead of Tyrus / Noah / Thabo in order to build trade value. At that point it was just as / more likely that we'd have traded players in the group that didn't play as much.

If we had played Tyrus / Thabo more and they looked better earlier, then we may have gotten Amare Stoudemire in trade instead, but because they weren't viewed as valuable enough Phoenix balked.

You're acting like Noc and Gooden played 38-40 minutes a night. They didn't all that happen was they played. I'm not saying Paxson came in and said play these guys over those guys but I bet he did say these guys need to be in the rotation and must be played period but they had to be played to be traded.

On the Amare thing IMO Paxson had no clue that Amare was avail for trade before the season but I bet he knew he needed to deal Gooden, Hughes and Noc

You're viewing what needed to be done through a prism as if it was the only thing that could have been done. Raising Tyrus, Noah, Thabo's trade value would have given us more valuable trades.

I also disagree strongly with your assertion about this relating to Hughes at all. Raising Thabo's trade value would have helped far more than raising Hughes trade value as far as our flexibility.

Gooden was traded for a team to save salary not for his on court ability. He had barely played in the past month or 2 when he was acquired. Hughes was acquired for equal length contracts and cap space, and the Knicks didn't give up any usable players for him. I don't think that trade was remotely linked to Hughes on court ability being proven this season.

You're not taking the whole season into account and are acting like the season was 20 games Doug, C'mon you're better than that......

Noah and Tyrus trade value are both increased from last year so you're wrong on that and again Doug last time I check the NBA played 82 games not 20.

Gooden was traded for his contract but Noc wasn't

The Knicks felt Hughes could play for them which if Hughes doesn't play early and show some good signs maybe the Knicks don't feel that way. Timmy and James contract are more valuable than Hughes.

I'm also gonna say it one more time but people fail to realize in the NBA they play 82 games and you need to judge things on a 82 game period not 10,20,30 or whatever. Tyrus and Noah both are going to come out of the season with higher trade value and more confidence going into next season.

Things had to be done as far as trade wise to clear the glut and it happen. Also Vinny managed the glut way better than Skiles did

 

[dougthonus]

I had written a much longer point by point response, but I think we're losing site of the bigger picture

You're saying he shouldn't be blamed because he had a tough roster situation and we needed to trade other players. I'm saying he shouldn't get credit because he didn't commit to our young guys until there was no other choice.

Those two statements don't contradict each other really. I think he could still do a lot more with Noah than he's doing and could have done more earlier, but on the whole I'm not upset at how much Tyrus/Noah have played. I just give VDN no credit for doing it because he no longer has a choice.

To me, you don't get credit for doing something good if it's the only thing you have left to do. If you do community service as part of a sentence to avoid jail, community service isn't a strength of yours. That's where we are at with Del Negro and how much he's played Tyrus/Noah.

 

[Ralphb07]

dougthonus wrote:

I had written a much longer point by point response, but I think we're losing site of the bigger picture

You're saying he shouldn't be blamed because he had a tough roster situation and we needed to trade other players. I'm saying he shouldn't get credit because he didn't commit to our young guys until there was no other choice.

Those two statements don't contradict each other really. I think he could still do a lot more with Noah than he's doing and could have done more earlier, but on the whole I'm not upset at how much Tyrus/Noah have played. I just give VDN no credit for doing it because he no longer has a choice.

To me, you don't get credit for doing something good if it's the only thing you have left to do. If you do community service as part of a sentence to avoid jail, community service isn't a strength of yours. That's where we are at with Del Negro and how much he's played Tyrus/Noah.

I make it short too. I feel with the roster glut he gave those players more minutes and more importantly consistent minutes. I feel he managed the rotation much better than our previous coach did.

I also feel that even with the Deng injury and being short handed he still could play other guys if he wanted to take away from Tyrus and Noah and I think Skiles would if he was still here.

I just feel Vinny gets blamed for things he shouldn't and it's quite annoying. It's pretty simple in my book I feel Vinny has improved in some areas and all I wanna see is what he can do when he starts camp and the season not worrying about a glut and how to fit players in.

People don't even give him credit for the winning of late and say it's talent only but aren't the Cavs winning on talent and the Lakers? When we lose it's on Vinny and when we win it's on the players.

I'm not a big Vinny supporter I'm just a fair person. If JVG was to say I want to coach the Bulls I would say fire Vinny. If Avery Johnson was to say I wanna coach the Bulls I would say the same thing.

 

[AirP]

Ralphb07 wrote:

Development is a lot more than playing 30 minutes a game. It's what you teach them in practice and make them work on while not being in Bulls practice. They do need minutes and I would say at least 20 minutes. If you play a guy 20 minutes IMO that is enough time. I see often that all people bring up is minutes and it seems the bar is too high of what they feel the minutes should be.

With the way the roster was I don't think 20 minutes is that low and wouldn't say Vinny didn't do a good job getting these guys minutes early on.

I don't agree with 20 minutes are enough time, it is if you're developing a role player, but when you're developing what you're hoping to be a key player down the road, that's just not enough time. If they're not getting the big minutes then more then likely they're not getting integrated into the gameplan much and with that aren't being used much more then... a role player. Coaches build gameplans and wrinkles into the offense/defense based on what you're going to have on the floor most of the time.

If Noc doesn't play the trade doesn't happen Doug and that's the bottom line. They took Gooden because of his expiring but Noc being locked into his contract isn't traded if he sits on the Bulls bench.

As far as Vinny goes Paxson and Vinny talk a lot and Paxson is telling Vinny what's going on as far as trades Vinny is not clueless. I'm not saying Vinny is some genuis but you can't sit here and tell me Paxson's not telling him these are the guys we need to get minutes too. I'm not saying it was Vinny choice or wasn't just bringing up that there was a reason of those players playing.

Sacremento took Noc because he played minutes(badly) this year? Nocioni has a body of work to look at and Sacremento wanted Nocioni's hard work and hustle to be on their roster in hopes it would be somewhat contagous to their young team. Nocioni was just overpaid(much like Hinrich) for too long of a contract for being a backup.

 

[Ralphb07]

Sacremento took Noc because he played minutes(badly) this year? Nocioni has a body of work to look at and Sacremento wanted Nocioni's hard work and hustle to be on their roster in hopes it would be somewhat contagous to their young team. Nocioni was just overpaid(much like Hinrich) for too long of a contract for being a backup

Some of you all just don't get it. Yes he played poorly but the key was still in the rotation and was good enough to be in a rotation. How are you going to trade a player that can't play for you and your team has a poor record which we did.

Noc might of had a bad year but he's still a good player.

Noc wouldn't of been traded if he was on the pine. Maybe as a salary dump but that's it. Also Noc played 24 minutes for us which is what he should of played. Noc is a 24 minutes guy in this league.

Eddy Curry is a perfect example. If the Knicks would of played him and showed that he still had something a team might of picked him up, same with Marbury but the Knicks didn't. What do people say about Eddy now...... He can't even play for the Knicks. if the Knicks are smart they would play him next year. Get him in shape and play him 25 minutes and a team that needs inside scoring will pick him up

 

[dougthonus]

I'm not a big Vinny supporter I'm just a fair person. If JVG was to say I want to coach the Bulls I would say fire Vinny. If Avery Johnson was to say I wanna coach the Bulls I would say the same thing.

Despite our argument, I think I'm coming around to the point where I'm more with you than against you. I think VDN has improved over the course of the season by setting a rotation and shrinking it.

He could still be playing Aaron Gray, but he's not. He could be throwing Linton Johnson or Lindsay Hunter out there, but he's not. Earlier he was. Now I may be focusing on how that pissed me off earlier, but it's fair to say that he stopped, so he seems to have learned his lesson on playing ultra-scrubs or feeling like everyone needs a role.

I don't know if I would fire VDN for Avery Johnson, whom I'm not a fan of, but I would fire him for JVG who I'm a huge fan of. Though JVG isn't a fast paced coach, and we have the personnel to be better as a fast paced team. I do wonder how well we'd do with a great slow down coach, because if you play a slow pace I think you're more likely to sustain playoff success (actually being able to play both is important).

Anyway, I don't think we should fire VDN anymore, because I don't think the alternatives will be better. VDN has shown enough that he's competent and that he's willing to adjust his philosophy based on negative feedback. I'm not not throwing his name in the coach of the year ballot box, but for a guy with no experience he did fine and showed visible improvement.

If he learns how to better manage timeouts and end game situations then it will help a heck of a lot though. It seems like he gets caught feeling "I have to take a timeout here because people expect me to take one" when the team performs better when they aren't starting from a half court set.

 

[Ralphb07]

dougthonus wrote:

I'm not a big Vinny supporter I'm just a fair person. If JVG was to say I want to coach the Bulls I would say fire Vinny. If Avery Johnson was to say I wanna coach the Bulls I would say the same thing.

Despite our argument, I think I'm coming around to the point where I'm more with you than against you. I think VDN has improved over the course of the season by setting a rotation and shrinking it.

He could still be playing Aaron Gray, but he's not. He could be throwing Linton Johnson or Lindsay Hunter out there, but he's not. Earlier he was. Now I may be focusing on how that pissed me off earlier, but it's fair to say that he stopped, so he seems to have learned his lesson on playing ultra-scrubs or feeling like everyone needs a role.

I don't know if I would fire VDN for Avery Johnson, whom I'm not a fan of, but I would fire him for JVG who I'm a huge fan of. Though JVG isn't a fast paced coach, and we have the personnel to be better as a fast paced team. I do wonder how well we'd do with a great slow down coach, because if you play a slow pace I think you're more likely to sustain playoff success (actually being able to play both is important).

Anyway, I don't think we should fire VDN anymore, because I don't think the alternatives will be better. VDN has shown enough that he's competent and that he's willing to adjust his philosophy based on negative feedback. I'm not not throwing his name in the coach of the year ballot box, but for a guy with no experience he did fine and showed visible improvement.

If he learns how to better manage timeouts and end game situations then it will help a heck of a lot though. It seems like he gets caught feeling "I have to take a timeout here because people expect me to take one" when the team performs better when they aren't starting from a half court set.

That's exactly how I feel Doug you just word it better than me... I like Avery and wanted him as the coach he would of been a upgrade. JVG you gotta remember me screaming his name last year on RealGM. He would be an excellent coach for us and who knows he might wanna get back into after next year...

Derrick should be hitting it well in his 3rd year and that's when I would like to change coaches if we have to.