Axl Rose
and I knew the silence of the world
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i was talking to czman...every player we mention he doesn't like
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I just really can't take you seriously. Sorry. Using rebounding rate as the only metric to gauge whether or not Kevin Love is a "great player" is shortsighted on your part. And you're completely wrong about the stat itself -- the guy has been top 10 in rebounding rate EVERY SINGLE YEAR he's been in the NBA. On top of that, Kevin Love has finished higher than Carlos Boozer in rebounding rate since his rookie season. Aren't you forgetting Kevin Love is 24-years-old? You're acting like the guy is in his early 30s and had some magical fluke season that he'll never be able to replicate.
On top of that, his defensive metrics have improve each season he's been in the NBA. Sure, Kevin Love is never going to be an elite defensive player, but he's physical enough to pester guys when they collapse on the basket. Minnesota's interior defense is terrible with or without Love. That'll never be his strength. Love is best suited to be a help defender on rotations, especially on larger bigs. The real issue you can see with Love defensively is that he doesn't quite have the lateral quickness to defend a small ball power forward. But just like with Boozer, the Bulls are generally able to do with Noah or Gibson on the floor.
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I wouldn't be too quick to jump on the "Sign Deng to a long term extension" boat right away. He's approaching 30, and does have a lot of minutes logged on him.
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Plus he's a Dukie
I'd love to keep Deng around, but I would love even more for the Bulls to trade Deng for a star player.
czman
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I just cannot really take you seriously. You agreed with everything I typed. I stated he was top 10 and even top 5 twice. I never said he was not a really good rebounder. I stated he is not a great player. We both agree he is slow footed and does not protect the pain. You seem to think that is ok. I don't think the Bulls should pay someone 20 million a season (they cannot do unless the make a huge trade) when he is not a 4 quarter player.
Kevin love would fit with some teams very well. The Thunder would be a great fit. The Knicks. Where ever Jeff Van Gundy or D'Antoni are coaching. He is not a fit for TIbs and this Bulls team.
Lastly Kevin Love is not a great player. I guess if you extend the definition of great far enough so that it has little meaning he is. He has missed 107 games in 5 seasons and even before this season he has shown some injury concerns. He has never been on a team that has won 40% of its games. He has never been to the playoffs. Great players win games.
Lastly he does not protect the paint. He does not draw charges. He does have the ability to play defense in pick and roll or step out on the smaller defenders and stay in front of them.
The NBA is not a video game where you just throw guys together in a vacuum. Style of play does matter.
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Well I did say that their listed height wasn't really relevant. Furthermore, you're basically ignoring that combine scouting report that says that Butler has EXCELLENT SIZE FOR AN NBA SMALL FORWARD. He's basically 6'7"...this is not undersized. His weight isn't and wasn't an issue either, so I'm really failing to see why you're calling him undersized. He's perfectly fine. Not all SFs are Lebron James, but even so, Jimmy can guard Lebron for 48 minutes unless the refs give Lebron every call, so again, this whole "undersized" argument is basically wrong.
Well it's basically impossible to predict, so sure agree to disagree.
Again, this is just a wrong statement. I say again, BUTLER HAS EXCELLENT SIZE FOR AN NBA SMALL FORWARD.
I'd say center is the weakest position in basketball, but sure I guess there's isn't a ton of great talent at SG outside of the Kobe's, Wade's, and Harden's of the world. That said, I doubt Butler is going to be top 3 at any position he plays...probably not even top 5, and top 7 is a maybe at best. Could he hit top 7 at SG, sure if all things go right and SG continues to be a position with a huge talent gap, but he'd still be behind guys like Kevin Martin, Iggy, Paul George, Ginobili, Eric Gordon, etc. At best, he could be like Shumpert, but taller...and that's not too bad at all.
Well that's the thing, if you do trade Deng, you want a SG in return...one that will be a significant upgrade. That or you're getting another SF back that's just as good and you leave Jimmy at SG. Point is, you don't make a trade that doesn't make sense. If we do trade Deng, we'd have to be getting a piece back that fills a need, otherwise, it's a dumb trade.
That said, I doubt Butler is going to flourish any more at SG than he would at SF. In today's NBA, those positions are virtually interchangeable at times and players slide back and forth between them all the time, thus the term swingman. Would you call Evan Turner a SG or a SF? Is Iggy a SG or a SF? What about JR Smith? The line between SG and SF is blurring much like the line between PF and C nowadays. So perhaps the fact that this argument even exists is pointless.
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Sounds like what Asik is now (except he's a starter), someone like Kyle Korver, and freaking Kobe Bryant or something. Realistically, we can get 2 of those guys and I think we all know which 2 those would be.
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I feel obligated to ask you now, what is your opinion of players like Tracy McGrady? Oft injured, made it to the playoffs a few times only to be bounced in the 1st round.
Or what about Paul Pierce before Kevin Garnett, Rondo, and Ray Allen arrived? Pierce was putting up numbers and losing too (granted not every season, but his first few years in the league were losing seasons). Did people ever say he wasn't a great player?
Furthermore, have you considered that Kevin Love has had next to nothing around him for most of his career? It wasn't until just recently that Rubio and Pekovic emerged as guys who could help him out, but overall injuries have decimated even that. With a fully healthy roster, Minnesota could've made the playoffs, or at least have been in the running. Western Conference is the harder conference, remember, so even a team with 45 wins could not make the playoffs potentially.
czman
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I never thought Tracy McGrady was a great player. Did you think Mitch Richmond was a great player?
The difference I would say between McGrady and a Kevin Love is McGrady had unreal athleticism.
Paul Pierce was the best player on teams that made it to the second round and ECFs. I would not call him a great player, but he was right below it. Some of those early 2000's teams were devoid of talent besides him and Walker and I personally think Walker was not nearly as good as Pierce.
As far as Love and his teams being bad. Chris Bosh made the playoffs--all be it in the East--with some horrible teams. Bosh was a consistent 22/10 man and he plays better defense. Would you call him a great player? I wouldn't.
People throw around terms like Great/superstar/star way to frequently for my liking. I am not going to split hairs with people on it. If you want to call Kevin Love go ahead. His liabilities would be exasperated in Chicago under Tibs and skills would not be fully used. Therefore, he is not a good fit for the cost.
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Hah...fair enough then. I personally do think Mitch Richmond was a great player and is one that a lot of fans underrate.
True, but by the time McGrady got to Houston his athleticism was destroyed by injuries.
Once again, if you're not calling Paul Pierce great, then I guess at least you're consistent. Kevin Love could be the best player on a team that makes the 2nd round...totally possible. He has had crap around him though and we all know in this league you don't win alone...especially with that kind of roster.
Love could be a consistent 25/15 guy who's offensively just as proficient inside and outside. I'd say that overrides his mediocre defense (or I suppose you'd call it terrible). As for calling Bosh a great player...I hate the guy right now, but I'd still call him great at the end of the day. Once again, you're at least being consistent.
Well what is your definition of great then? Who in your mind is great? Is great synonymous with someone like Lebron James, Oscar Robertson, Michael Jordan, etc? Are only the best players of an era considered "great" in your mind? I'm just curious.
His contract is actually worth less than Boozer's per year (though longer if I'm not mistaken) and if you find Boozer a decent enough fit for the cost, I have no idea why Love isn't. Especially considering you essentially labelled Love as a 3pt shooting Boozer.
czman
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Ruy ***: height 6'7" Wing span 7'3" standing reach 8'11"
Nicolas Batun Wing span 7'1" standing reach 8'9"
Kawhi Leonard height 6'6" Wing span 7'3" standing reach 8'10"
Paul George height 6'8" Wing span 6'11" standing reach 8'11" (Will probably go back to SG once Granger comes back, if they don't move Granger)
Kevin Durant height 6'9" Wing span 7'5" standing reach 9'2"
Carmelo Anthony height 6'6" Wing span 7' standing reach 8'10"
Danny Granger height 6'8" Wing span 7'2" standing reach 8'7"
I am not going to go through every SF in the NBA. He is going to be on the small side for SF. Butler and his 6"8" wing span and 8'5" standing reach are just not very good.
Why put a player at a position of weakness when he can be a position of strength. Butler can Post most 2s. He is not going to post 3s. His outside shooting is going to be the same either way. Butler will be much better at rebounding from the SG position, comparatively.
I see no benefit from moving him to the SF. I have yet to see anyone give a real benefit either. Just a lot about he can do it or not.
czman
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His contract is worth what you have to trade to get him. If the Timberwolves want Boozer for him then hell yes. The problem is they are going to want more than that. He is not a FA until 2016/17 and I don't think the Bulls should wait that long. I don't think gutting the team for Kevin Love makes sense.
There is a cost their. I still don't see how Kevin Love makes any sense.
czman
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Top couple players in the game. The Great players would be the players that I would call Superstars. I think Kevin Durant and Lebron James covers it. Before his injury I think Rose was knocking on that door. It is hard to say what he will be since we have not seen him over a year.
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Not to nitpick but there's no way melo is 6'6
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Ok fine his arms are shorter than all the small forwards with freakishly long arms. You win. So was Jimmy more at a position of weakness against Lebron James and his 7' wingspan or against Dwyane Wade and his 6'11" wingspan? Note Wade is 4 inches shorter than Lebron, as I'm sure you know. Wade also has a higher standing reach than Butler. Well dang...Jimmy's screwed either way. He seems to be undersized at either spot.
Hyperbole and sarcasm aside, this is the NBA...dang near everyone has a ridiculous wingspan and standing reach, but you don't need a 7' wingspan to succeed, nor does it guarantee success. Examples, Michael Sweetney, a lovely pudgy young forward, measured in at 6'7.25" and had a wingspan of 7'1". Nick Collison, a guy who has been a rotation player in OKC/Seattle for years, measured at 6'8.75" and had a wingspan of 7'1.5". How is it then, that Sweetney, who proportionally had longer arms, fizzled out of the NBA while Collison remains in the NBA today? Another example. TJ Ford, a stout 5'11" had a wingspan of just 5'11.5" and had a perfectly fine NBA career until injuries made it impossible for him to play.
Being able to post someone up has nothing to do with your position. Andre Miller and Chauncey Billups spent their whole careers backing down PGs who were taller than them or smaller than them. They could do it because they were smarter or stronger than their defender. Heck, Rip can backd own a lot of SGs even though he's stick thin. He does it with skill. Same with Tayshaun Prince. Jimmy can back down anyone who he feels he has an advantage strength wise, height wise, or whatever-else wise. This being said, how often do we see a post up play for Jimmy? And even if he was at SG, all the other team has to do is switch on defense to a guy who can defend the post up better or just collapse on him.
Will he be a better rebounder than most SGs? Yes...because he rebounds like a SF. Either way his rebounding is going to be the same...I fail to see the point.
But we get away from the real point...the point was that you said Butler was not a SF. That he cannot play SF at all. This. Statement. Is. False. Is there a real benefit from moving him to SF? That wasn't the point. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, and clearly there's an argument for not having him at SF, but could he do it if he had to? Yes.
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I don't think we'd necessarily have to gut the team for Love. Would we have to give up pieces? Sure, but Boozer is probably one of them (probably why this scenario is highly unlikely from the start). Or if you trade Luol Deng and parts for Love you follow that up by moving Boozer for another wing to fill in that void.
At the end of the day the question comes down to would you replace Boozer with Love if you could and the answer to that question is yes.
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Biased poll.
No option to vote for extension that is not long term. Both options to keep him are poor. "Let walk (and get nothing for him)", or "long term extension" (he's no spring chicken especially several years from now as has been pointed out)
Pointless thread & poll except to instigate arguments and devalue Deng.
No option to vote for extension that is not long term. Both options to keep him are poor. "Let walk (and get nothing for him)", or "long term extension" (he's no spring chicken especially several years from now as has been pointed out)
Pointless thread & poll except to instigate arguments and devalue Deng.
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Ok so relative to HOF level players then, are guys like Ewing, Pippen, Drexler, Wilkins, Worthy, etc not considered great in your eyes because they were always behind Jordan and whoever you thought the next best guy was? Say it was Hakeem or someone. Then ONLY those players get the superstar/great label because they are the best couple players in the league. Why so restrictive? What prevents CP3 or Kobe or Wade from being considered great? Were they great before Durant showed up and now cease to be great because Durant happens to be better? It seems far to restrictive to me. I'm not sure what exactly I'd call "great" but it would certainly have more than 2 players or even 4 players.
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But why wouldn't Deng sign for anything else than a long term extension? Long term is 4 years now which would bring him to the beginnings of the tail end of his career. It'll most likely be the last "big" contract he gets. He'll want the years.
RoseMVP1
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I think Deng will be gone cause someone will end up offering him a decent deal. I think if the right offer comes along we should just trade him to get something for him.