When will it be enough of JC?

[vadarx]

I've certainly seen enough, myself.

I tried to be patient, but besides his system that he apparently hasn't been able to teach in a way that trained professionals can pick up and run for almost an entire season now (and an entire off season and an entire training camp), I just cannot stand his attitude. I hate it, it pisses me off. he comes off as thinking he is the smartest guy in the room for absolutely no reason at all.

if I were one of the vets on the team, I would have a a reallllll hard time listening to someone who failed at the job I was currently doing and have done well enough to the tune of having my name engraved on the best trophy in sports 3 damn times. real hard.

 

[Granada]

I've certainly seen enough, myself.

I tried to be patient, but besides his system that he apparently hasn't been able to teach in a way that trained professionals can pick up and run for almost an entire season now (and an entire off season and an entire training camp), I just cannot stand his attitude. I hate it, it pisses me off. he comes off as thinking he is the smartest guy in the room for absolutely no reason at all.

if I were one of the vets on the team, I would have a a reallllll hard time listening to someone who failed at the job I was currently doing and have done well enough to the tune of having my name engraved on the best trophy in sports 3 damn times. real hard.

Agree with all of this, but the bolded is particularly the main issue to me. How can you expect guys (who have had hall-of-fame careers) to be receptive to someone that never even averaged one full NHL season over his entire career? To me, it's just a matter of time before Crawford is made coach. Crawford's history as a player isn't necessarily spectacular either, but his coaching experience would seem to garner more respect in the locker room.

 

[LordKOTL]

I've certainly seen enough, myself.

I tried to be patient, but besides his system that he apparently hasn't been able to teach in a way that trained professionals can pick up and run for almost an entire season now (and an entire off season and an entire training camp), I just cannot stand his attitude. I hate it, it pisses me off. he comes off as thinking he is the smartest guy in the room for absolutely no reason at all.

if I were one of the vets on the team, I would have a a reallllll hard time listening to someone who failed at the job I was currently doing and have done well enough to the tune of having my name engraved on the best trophy in sports 3 damn times. real hard.

Playing devil's advocate here...but consider the playing careers of guys like Q or Scotty Bowman vs. where they go down in coaching history. Meanwhile, look at how *ahem* good a coach Gretzky was.

I read somewhere that the better coaches tend to come more from mediocre players at best and fringe players at worst. The best players tend to play the game more on instinct and subconsciously--and likely can't articulate the process and fundamentals. It is/was automatic to them. The worse players have to consciously know the fundamentals and the process to even hang in there, and if they can articulate and pass that info on they tend to make better coaches.

While that's not absolving JC and the fecal-fest he's contributing to (and yes, IMHO he's not a good coach right now), I don't think players would look at it as such unless they're complete prima donnas (which is a bigger problem unto itself and, IMHO means we need a coach like Keenan). They should have seen across the league that some of the better coaches were not the best players, and they should be judged on their coaching ability in-and-of-itself.

 

[Granada]

Playing devil's advocate here...but consider the playing careers of guys like Q or Scotty Bowman vs. where they go down in coaching history. Meanwhile, look at how *ahem* good a coach Gretzky was.

I read somewhere that the better coaches tend to come more from mediocre players at best and fringe players at worst. The best players tend to play the game more on instinct and subconsciously--and likely can't articulate the process and fundamentals. It is/was automatic to them. The worse players have to consciously know the fundamentals and the process to even hang in there, and if they can articulate and pass that info on they tend to make better coaches.

While that's not absolving JC and the fecal-fest he's contributing to (and yes, IMHO he's not a good coach right now), I don't think players would look at it as such unless they're complete prima donnas (which is a bigger problem unto itself and, IMHO means we need a coach like Keenan). They should have seen across the league that some of the better coaches were not the best players, and they should be judged on their coaching ability in-and-of-itself.

That's fair, although I think coaching experience goes a long way for a guy with limited playing experience. When you have a guy that has neither, it's a problem. Of course, there are exceptions -- Bylsma in Pittsburgh is the one I can think of: a guy with little coaching/playing experience, who immediately had success. But of course, that was short-lived, and he's currently an assistant for Detroit. So who knows.

 

[LordKOTL]

That's fair, although I think coaching experience goes a long way for a guy with limited playing experience. When you have a guy that has neither, it's a problem. Of course, there are exceptions -- Bylsma in Pittsburgh is the one I can think of: a guy with little coaching/playing experience, who immediately had success. But of course, that was short-lived, and he's currently an assistant for Detroit. So who knows.

I think the coach in Tampa was similar--at least circa 2015: young and relatively inexperienced. I could be wrong though.

I do agree that JC is so far out of his depth he needs water wings and that he seems no more than a Bowman Yes-man. But in the same vein if the core doesn't at least try to give the systems and deployments a good college try for no other reason than JC is a new, green coach, then the fault is on them.

 

[blackpep72]

How can you question the coach without also rectifying the gm situation first?

That was what a lot of people was saying when they fired Q.

 

[anotheridiot]

I think the coach in Tampa was similar--at least circa 2015: young and relatively inexperienced. I could be wrong though.

I do agree that JC is so far out of his depth he needs water wings and that he seems no more than a Bowman Yes-man. But in the same vein if the core doesn't at least try to give the systems and deployments a good college try for no other reason than JC is a new, green coach, then the fault is on them.

but hasn't it been a year of trying already?

 

[LordKOTL]

That was what a lot of people was saying when they fired Q.

Technically, You're right. However, Stan never got *his* coach. Now he's got his coach and things are looking grim for him.

but hasn't it been a year of trying already?

The argument is that JC came in cold. He didn't have the offseason before 2019 to come up with his gameplan and didn't have the preseason before 2019 to acclimate the players to his system vs. Q's.

IMHO this is why Q should have been let go after 2018. That would have given JC the summer and preseason to develop his system, and (even though this is speculation) would have likely led to 2019 being just as disappointing as it was, which likely would have led to Stan getting fired. Instead the 'hawks basically lost a year.

We'll see though. Was the Anaheim game an anomaly or the the start of the core playing better?

 

[anotheridiot]

Technically, You're right. However, Stan never got *his* coach. Now he's got his coach and things are looking grim for him.

The argument is that JC came in cold. He didn't have the offseason before 2019 to come up with his gameplan and didn't have the preseason before 2019 to acclimate the players to his system vs. Q's.

IMHO this is why Q should have been let go after 2018. That would have given JC the summer and preseason to develop his system, and (even though this is speculation) would have likely led to 2019 being just as disappointing as it was, which likely would have led to Stan getting fired. Instead the 'hawks basically lost a year.

We'll see though. Was the Anaheim game an anomaly or the the start of the core playing better?

But Bowman wanted him to be with his wife waiting for the birth of their child, their third child.

I dont know what they are doing in the system. Did Rockford run JC's system and that was why none of our D men were any good for Q? or was JC trying to coach the Q system in rockford?

When I saw Bovquist his first game, who people say is bad at D, he was back on a 2 on 1, he chased the puck to the boards, then followed it to center when the trailer arrived and it seemed like it was two strides to get there. They did not score.

Now we are back to Bovquist is going to take Gus' job, and he is being dangled again. Bowman was asking too much during the off season, we cant afford to pay gus 3 million next year anyway. The focus should be on Bovquist replacing Seabrook or Murphy, shouldn't it? not the 6th man.

 

[Marty McFly]

The argument is that JC came in cold. He didn't have the offseason before 2019 to come up with his gameplan and didn't have the preseason before 2019 to acclimate the players to his system vs. Q's.

IMHO this is why Q should have been let go after 2018. That would have given JC the summer and preseason to develop his system, and (even though this is speculation) would have likely led to 2019 being just as disappointing as it was, which likely would have led to Stan getting fired. Instead the 'hawks basically lost a year.

On the subject of JC's style... I initially thought I was just imagining things when I noticed that we seemed to be dumping the puck in far more than previous years under Q. Which is strange. We have a some talented carriers of the puck that we can deploy across all of our lines. Again, maybe I'm imagining things, but we seem to be dumping the puck in, not recovering it, and facing a rush going the other way. Then we wonder why we're having a hard time generating offense. I haven't seen a lot of the possession we've seen in the past this season, and we just seem to constantly be turning it over and putting our defense under pressure.

From 2016-2019 we were one of the best when it came to zone exits while dumping the puck least often in the league.

"The differences may seem small, but keep in mind that teams average 96 zone exits a game. That means that roughly 5 times a game, the Capitals create an offensive situation at a time where the Senators stay stuck playing defense."

Compare that chart to a chart focusing on 2018-2019...

Apparently I wasn't imagining things. We have been dumping more and our zone exit success rate is falling. I'd venture a guess that if we looked at just this season alone, our share of dumps would be higher and our exit success rate would be even lower. We're not trending in the right direction. Obviously this play style was partially why we targeted some of the more physical players we did... but it's obviously not working. This may explain why some of the core players seem more unhappy with the current play style. Kane in particular refuses to dump it in, and who can blame him. He's an elite puck carrier and should carry it in.

I could be completely full of shit too... so...

 

[Granada]

On the subject of JC's style... I initially thought I was just imagining things when I noticed that we seemed to be dumping the puck in far more than previous years under Q. Which is strange. We have a some talented carriers of the puck that we can deploy across all of our lines. Again, maybe I'm imagining things, but we seem to be dumping the puck in, not recovering it, and facing a rush going the other way. Then we wonder why we're having a hard time generating offense. I haven't seen a lot of the possession we've seen in the past this season, and we just seem to constantly be turning it over and putting our defense under pressure.

From 2016-2019 we were one of the best when it came to zone exits while dumping the puck least often in the league.

"The differences may seem small, but keep in mind that teams average 96 zone exits a game. That means that roughly 5 times a game, the Capitals create an offensive situation at a time where the Senators stay stuck playing defense."

Compare that chart to a chart focusing on 2018-2019...

Apparently I wasn't imagining things. We have been dumping more and our zone exit success rate is falling. I'd venture a guess that if we looked at just this season alone, our share of dumps would be higher and our exit success rate would be even lower. We're not trending in the right direction. Obviously this play style was partially why we targeted some of the more physical players we did... but it's obviously not working. This may explain why some of the core players seem more unhappy with the current play style. Kane in particular refuses to dump it in, and who can blame him. He's an elite puck carrier and should carry it in.

I could be completely full of shit too... so...

The Hawks have always had trouble with dumping the puck in, so I'm not sure if it's a matter of doing it more/less as much as it is never being successful at it. In their hey-day, they really didn't need to dump it in -- they killed opposing teams with raw speed and the transition game, which was one of the best transition games I've ever seen a team play (they had rock solid defense in their zone, then they would exit the zone quicker than anybody). When they were deep, this was fine -- but now that they are a "slow" team, dump and chase will be all the more important and all the more attempted.

 

[anotheridiot]

The Hawks have always had trouble with dumping the puck in, so I'm not sure if it's a matter of doing it more/less as much as it is never being successful at it. In their hey-day, they really didn't need to dump it in -- they killed opposing teams with raw speed and the transition game, which was one of the best transition games I've ever seen a team play (they had rock solid defense in their zone, then they would exit the zone quicker than anybody). When they were deep, this was fine -- but now that they are a "slow" team, dump and chase will be all the more important and all the more attempted.

even when they were winning cups every other year, the teams that gave them trouble forced them to dump and chase. They lined up 4 or 5 across their blue line and dared them to go and get it. Those were also the teams that played physical against the hawks. Whoever flipped it in the zone got hammered and there was enough interference for the rest so the goalie could go behind the net and play the puck.

Part of this years problem is trying to make the perfect pass. Kubalik knows how to shoot the puck, he is sniping more than anyone, just making things happen. Thats what Cat was doing last year and more often than not Cat is trying to make a pass now. We have 4 lines, we need 4 guys willing to get to the net. I am still sick of all our forwards getting stuck in the corner to win a puck and nobody in front of the net. Those are times other teams activate their d man to head towards the blue paint to possibly get a centering pass, but our d men are paired so slow that they are afraid to have odd men rushes the other way because our guys cannot catch the other team.

 

[Granada]

even when they were winning cups every other year, the teams that gave them trouble forced them to dump and chase. They lined up 4 or 5 across their blue line and dared them to go and get it. Those were also the teams that played physical against the hawks. Whoever flipped it in the zone got hammered and there was enough interference for the rest so the goalie could go behind the net and play the puck.

Part of this years problem is trying to make the perfect pass. Kubalik knows how to shoot the puck, he is sniping more than anyone, just making things happen. Thats what Cat was doing last year and more often than not Cat is trying to make a pass now. We have 4 lines, we need 4 guys willing to get to the net. I am still sick of all our forwards getting stuck in the corner to win a puck and nobody in front of the net. Those are times other teams activate their d man to head towards the blue paint to possibly get a centering pass, but our d men are paired so slow that they are afraid to have odd men rushes the other way because our guys cannot catch the other team.

True. And that's why the Hawks always sucked on the PP also, even when they were at their best; teams would always force them to dump and chase on the man advantage. Teams could usually get away with that in spurts (i.e. on their PK's), but again, the Hawks' transition game would burn them eventually. The Hawks were never a "big" or physical team; hence, they were never really a successful "dump and chase" team. They won with speed and skill. So yes, they would struggle when opposing teams would force them to play a dump-and-chase/physical boards game, but they would still overcome that through their depth, speed, and skill.

To me, the Hawks have always tried to make the perfect pass. At their best, their passing game was lights out -- not just in the attack zone, but exiting their own zone. All their D were masters at the stretch pass, which made them even faster. The difference nowadays is that, their passing game overall is shit compared to what it used to be.

My point here is this: all of this is noticeable because this team is in somewhat of an identity crisis, and has been for the last few years now. When they were lights-out, they were an undersized team, but compensated with speed and skill. Now, since the core is older/slower and team depth is lacking, their game has to change. Just look at their puck possession (substantial decrease) and particularly, their hitting (substantial increase) the last couple seasons. Anytime a team is trying to change their identity, you're going to have the ugly puberty phase in-between.

With the way the Hawks have given up so many odd-man rushes, it's no wonder why Colliton hasn't activated them as much recently. It's hard to activate your D when your forwards don't know how to cover and/or your D pinches at inopportune times.

 

[anotheridiot]

Yeah, but dont forget the hawks basically gave the new blueprint to teams over their dynasty years. Hawks are getting slower, but by the same token, other teams are getting faster. They are concentrating on making sure there is speed on their roster now. So it looks like the hawks are getting slower, but the league is also getting noticeably quicker.

 

[Granada]

Yeah, but dont forget the hawks basically gave the new blueprint to teams over their dynasty years. Hawks are getting slower, but by the same token, other teams are getting faster. They are concentrating on making sure there is speed on their roster now. So it looks like the hawks are getting slower, but the league is also getting noticeably quicker.

I'm not so sure. Even with the blueprint, it's hard to replicate what the Hawks had -- just as it's hard to replicate what any sports dynasty had. The makeup of any sports dynasty is simply special and everything comes together: coaching, players, scouting, development. You need a perfect storm to create a dynasty of any sort; not just the blueprint.

I'd also say, I actually think teams are starting to get away from speed now and are focusing more on physicality again. Size is suddenly important again, and teams are hesitant to take their chances on Kane-like, smaller players again. The Blues for example, they won with physicality. Same with the Kings. Even the Hawks/Bowman is starting to focus on physicality now (thankfully, I would argue), as opposed to smaller players. Drafting Dach over Turcotte, for example, was no accident. Bringing in Zack Smith and Ryan Carpenter (both above 6 feet and over 200 pounds), also no accident.

 

[MassHavoc]

"When will it be enough of JC?"

Probably after tonight.

WWJCD?

 

[Bigfoot]

WWJCD?

Penis lots of it

 

[MassHavoc]

Penis lots of it

I thought we already knew that?

 

[Raskolnikov]

It's must be pretty awkward in the Seabs household, with Dach living there and Seabs being benched. Interesting dinner conversations about the team I'd bet.

I guess Nylander has been hanging with those two alot too.

 

[Raskolnikov]

I am sure Dach made that decision thinking he only had 9 games. I highly doubt its like he has to share a bathroom, but now that he is supposed to stay here, I am sure he will find his own place, probably move his parents in.

Yeah..I think that was the deal, they didn't want a kid wasting money or worrying about where to stay if it was temporary. I am sure all of Seabs wife's friends are hanging out there alot too.