Who was the better #7? BG or Toni?

[Riker]

mlewinth wrote:Wait, sorry, one more thing. Are you this biased and angry because you are from Croatia!?!?! If you feel this strongly, PLEASE PLEASE be on our next Chicago Bullseye and let's discuss this topic. I promise, we can throw off the gloves and have a friendly discussion. If your interested, e-mail me at mlewinth@yahoo.com, with your phone number. We plan to do a cast Sunday. I would love to have a segment where Fred and I can talk to you.[/quote]

SHORT VERSION of my answer.

Toni Kukoc - 6'11, fairly quick for his size, lanky.

Let me break it down for you;

Average playmaker is 10 inches shorter than Toni. Assign your average playmaker to Toni, that playmaker will have fun shooting jumpers over 6'11 guy. On the other hand, Toni will have a field day shooting over 6'1 guy.

Average shooting guard is 6 inches shorter than Toni. Toni can play SG, why not. If you assign your SG to Toni, shooting jumpers over 6'11 guy is not fun at all, but Toni shooting over his 6'3-6'4 ass is a field day.

Average small forward is 3 inches shorter than Toni. Now this is probably the closest match, but still theres height advantage whether you like it or not.

Power forwards and centers - no. You put your PF on Toni, you will lose, Toni is quicker, can shoot from 3, he can stretch the court, so if your PF needs to leave the paint to face up Toni, that's generous of you to leave the lane open for someone.

Now, I'm a BG fan, but BG is only mismatch to himself. He's too short for being a shooting guard, and he can't exactly play the playmaker position.

Toni played the playmaker spot for most of his career. See the difference? See the advantage why Toni was not your average bench warmer?


LONG VERSION;

Before many of you even had internet connections and had the ability to spread your ever precious knowledge worldwide, Toni played ball in Split, Croatia. He played in a sorry ass club. Nobody gave that club a chance even to win local championship, they were a mediocre team as far as people were concerned. But you know what happened? They hired a great coach (Maljkovic, I know nobody cares because outside from Fred many of you are just superficial bandwagon fans but shoot...) and Maljkovic assembled a team around Toni. Toni was the core, and he played any position necessary. Then - that team went to European basketball finals. They won it three times. In a row.

Nobody in basketball world saw that coming. They were a poor club, they had no budget, no nothing, and they played against biggest european clubs - and won it all. So, when he won the European crown 3 times, AS A LEADER OF THE TEAM and MVP, he got traded to Benetton, Italy. Then - he led Benetton to Italian finals, and won.

Jerry Krause came to Croatia, during the war years, to make contacts with him. How? Bulls' scout Ivica Dukan - is from Croatia.

Also, sidestory, in a recent interview with coach Maljkovic, Maljkovic said that they were somewhere in Greece in summer 1992, talking about Kukoc trade and all that. And Krause said to Maljkovic "You know my team is done next year, right?" Maljkovic asked "Why, what do you mean?" and Krause said "Mike thinks about leaving, if he does that, the entire league will fumble". So just so you know, they knew about the retirement earlier.

On to Kukoc.

After he finally got traded to Bulls in 94, among playing great in Rookie game, and being called Croatian Sensation solely because nobody in the league could pass like he could at 6'11, he made a statement with hitting 5 game winning shots that season. 4 in regular season, and one in Game 3 semis against Knicks. That's a nice little feat for a rookie, right?

So, he came to the Bulls with 3 european titles as #1 team option and MVP, and won 3 more NBA titles, being the 6th man of the team and the third scoring option of the team. You heard that Jordan and Pippen both asked Phil to use Kukoc more. He was a major mismatch for anyone.

Ben Gordon is a better scorer than Kukoc, that's 100%. But Gordon doesn't have HALF the accolades Kukoc has. Gordon is from Europe too - could he lead any team there for 3 titles? If Gordon goes to play in Europe do you think that team would automatically win it all that year? No. Gordon is 6'3, Kukoc is 6'11, Gordon has to rely on his jumper, Kukoc can post up if everything else falls short. Also Kukoc can make plays and be a 100% legit playmaker on the team. Even though he's 6'11. Actually - Kukoc played mostly playmaker while winning those championships in Europe. And he did the same in Chicago.

Ben Gordon can't play anything but shooting guard position. Ben Gordon's repertoire is much more modest than Toni's. And I'm a BG fan. Ben Gordon is Ron Harper. Before his Bulls years, Ron was a very very good scorer. In Chicago, his numbers dropped significantly. Same would happen to BG if he was somehow on that Bulls team then.

 

[Riker]

And ok we can debate this live, no problem.

Why phone number? Why not Skype? Quality is better, it's dirt cheap...easier to record...etc

 

[houheffna]

Good background history on Kukoc, Riker. I loved the guy.

I don't remember many fans overvaluing him during his tenure here in Chicago. Most Bulls fans liked him though.

My point that people have to get. Gordon-better scorer, Kukoc-better basketball player, point blank.

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

I really want to say Toni but Ben has all-time team records,

This is Ben.

 

[??? ??????]

I broke this down:

http://dabullz.com/2009/09/04/better-7-toni-or-ben/

It is Ben Gordon, no question.

Toni Kukoc had two pathetic playoffs during the second three peat, and was basically Ron Mercer when he was asked to be the first option for one and a half seasons. (Actually did a worse job than Ron Mercer as the first option for the Bulls!).

 

[jsain360]

Frank Breakfast-Styleham wrote:

I really want to say Toni but Ben has all-time team records,

This is Ben.

Mike Piazza has the all-time home run record for catchers, it does not mean he was a better player than Fisk or Johnny Bench, Ben may hold some team records, but it doesn't make him a better player than Toni.

 

[mlewinth]

Riker wrote:

And ok we can debate this live, no problem.

Why phone number? Why not Skype? Quality is better, it's dirt cheap...easier to record...etc

Depending on how we structure the call (how many people are on it), Skype isint always feasable because we have multiple people on the line. E-mail me your Skype name and we can try it out. I only want your phone number and e-mail address to corrdinate. Our casts don't always go off at the time they are supposed to, so I just want to keep you atune to whatever changes. We are taping Sunday night at around 9-10 PT. E-mail me at mlewinth@yahoo.com.

 

[mlewinth]

??? ?????? wrote:

I broke this down:

http://dabullz.com/2009/09/04/better-7-toni-or-ben/

It is Ben Gordon, no question.

Toni Kukoc had two pathetic playoffs during the second three peat, and was basically Ron Mercer when he was asked to be the first option for one and a half seasons. (Actually did a worse job than Ron Mercer as the first option for the Bulls!).

Loved the article man. It is an imparitive read for anyone who feels strongly on this discussion.

 

[houheffna]

Well written, but......

gotta go grab the standard line from the great Vincent Edward Scully...

“Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination.”


It was shown that Gordon had a better TS% than Carmelo...who is the better ballplayer?

Joe Johnson has worse playoff numbers, is he a worse player?

Isiah Thomas had a TS% of .550 or higher ONCE in his career, is Gordon better than him?

Allen Iverson didn't go over .550 in TS% at all until he was 32, rather have Gordon over a young Allen Iverson?

The answer to all of the above is no, why wouldn't you if Gordon ranked higher in THIS PARTICULAR stat? My answer, because those were better players, I have seen all of them play. And I believe that Kukoc is better than Gordon at basketball, not at scoring. No one asked about scoring, who was the better player. What is the closest to True Basketballplayer percentage? There is nothing. Only watching the games and evaluating what you see is conclusive.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Well written, but......

gotta go grab the standard line from the great Vincent Edward Scully...

“Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination.”


It was shown that Gordon had a better TS% than Carmelo...who is the better ballplayer?

Joe Johnson has worse playoff numbers, is he a worse player?

Isiah Thomas had a TS% of .550 or higher ONCE in his career, is Gordon better than him?

Allen Iverson didn't go over .550 in TS% at all until he was 32, rather have Gordon over a young Allen Iverson?

The answer to all of the above is no, why wouldn't you if Gordon ranked higher in THIS PARTICULAR stat? My answer, because those were better players, I have seen all of them play. And I believe that Kukoc is better than Gordon at basketball, not at scoring. No one asked about scoring, who was the better player. What is the closest to True Basketballplayer percentage? There is nothing. Only watching the games and evaluating what you see is conclusive.

Those aren't fair comparisons. Those take place before the rule changes. If their was not hand checking rule, everyone from that era would have higher ts%.

 

[TheStig]

I gotta go with BG. Toni was a great bench player and average to slightly above average starter. Toni was never as good as BG. Toni would be a very similar player to Hedo today. I'd rather have BG over hedo, both are flawed players but BG at least gives you a consistent 20ppg.

 

[houheffna]

Kukoc was a better player than Hedo. Hedo is a good player and a more skilled player than BG. He is not as good a scorer as BG but he does everything else better, including handling the ball.


So using math Hedo > BG, Kukoc > Hedo, Kukoc > BG...class dismissed...

As far as the handchecking rules, Isiah maybe so, but Iverson is not the case. The rules changed when Iverson was 24, if I am not mistaken. He was a mercurial player before and after the change. There was no big jump between age 23 and 24 in productivity that is out of the ordinary rate of progression for a player like Iverson. I think he would have been a high level scorer regardless. My point is in 2000-2001, Iverson had a TS% of a little over 51%, and he was MVP! HE faced constant double teams, HE was a legitimate franchise player, why? Because he had the skills and he was a hell of a basketball player. If you watched, you knew, if you watched Kukoc, you knew.

 

[Bullsman24]

ok, but hedo's at/past the prime of his career. BG hasn't even gotten there yet.

 

[Diddy1122]

Can't believe I didn't read this thread sooner. It's a great debate but at the same time I feel there is no debate. It's the Croatian Sensation, Toni Kukoc. I can't believe how many people are picking Gordon on here. Is it youth? Ignorance? Irriational BG syndrome?

Mark, what happened? I know you're heartbroken bro but your overwhelming BG-withdrawal is clouding your reason. I agree with Fred, Hou, & even Riker, though his initial post did reek of ******-baginess. Clonetrooper asked who was the better player, & that's hands down by far unequivocally Kukoc. Toni could play all 5 positions & succeed. BG is by far a better shooter & scorer, no argument there, but being a good scorer doesn't necessarily mean you are a good overall basketball player. Monta Ellis is a great scorer. Is he a great overall player? No. Too many people are easily tricked by scoring & stats that they blind themselves to the full scope of basketball, which is scoring, rebounding, passing, defense, team play, hustle, & heart. Scoring is not the full measure of a player.

I still don't quite understand why MJ didn't want to play with Toni, intially. It made absolutely no sense. Maybe it was because Krause loved him & MJ hated Krause, either way I get the feeling that Toni would have been a Bull during atleast 2 of the first 3 championships if MJ was not so insecure about him. It took MJ retiring just to get Toni over here at the tender young age of 25, after winning back to back Player of Year awards in the Italian League.

For everyone using the excuse that he sucked in 98-99 when he was asked to be "The Man", well he led the team in scoring, rebounding, & assists at the age of 30 in a shortened season on a team that bolstered a starting line-up of Brent Barry, an old Ron Harper, Randy Brown, & Dickey Simpkins. How does the leading scorer of a team get open shots with that talent around him?

 

[houheffna]

BG is by far a better shooter & scorer, no argument there, but being a good scorer doesn't necessarily mean you are a good overall basketball player.

THANK YOU!!! Folk are bringing up TS%, that does not cover the question! Oh it feels so good to know someone else gets it. We are talking about right now.

ok, but hedo's at/past the prime of his career. BG hasn't even gotten there yet.

That is not the point. Dont care where BG hasn't gotten to because he is no longer a bull. And that is the question. Based on his years with the Bulls, my opinion remains the same.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Kukoc was a better player than Hedo. Hedo is a good player and a more skilled player than BG. He is not as good a scorer as BG but he does everything else better, including handling the ball.


So using math Hedo > BG, Kukoc > Hedo, Kukoc > BG...class dismissed...

As far as the handchecking rules, Isiah maybe so, but Iverson is not the case. The rules changed when Iverson was 24, if I am not mistaken. He was a mercurial player before and after the change. There was no big jump between age 23 and 24 in productivity that is out of the ordinary rate of progression for a player like Iverson. I think he would have been a high level scorer regardless. My point is in 2000-2001, Iverson had a TS% of a little over 51%, and he was MVP! HE faced constant double teams, HE was a legitimate franchise player, why? Because he had the skills and he was a hell of a basketball player. If you watched, you knew, if you watched Kukoc, you knew.

I don't know how you can say they are so much more skilled all around. All three are poor rebounders, average at best defensively and more turnover prone. Kukoc was an extremely flawed player, he couldn't guard sfs or pfs, couldn't rebound and wasn't a great creator outside of his bench role. He never averaged over 15 ppg in his career accept for the one lottery team with the bulls. We just remember him as this great player because he was part of the dynasty team. Hedo especially, in the last two years when he became the great ball handler you claim has averaged 2.8 turnovers per game and hasn't averaged over 5apg. Great ball handlers as you proclaim him, have over a 2 to 1 ratio at the minimum.

I meant more the change to a more offensively friendly nba after the last pistons change. Its not just the hand checking rules. Iverson is very talented, I agree but he is a different superstar than anyone else we have ever seen. His numbers are a large portion generated due to playing the most minutes and having the highest usage rate for most of his career. He also hasn't been able to play with any other stars in the league. He has accomplished a lot but its weird situation when talking about him because if he played with anyone he wouldn't have his huge usage, he is highest among all active players. I still think he is immensely talented but that is why he can't get a contract now. He clearly had the most talent out of any fa this year.

 

[houheffna]

They all suck defensively. Toni had a low post game also, it wasn't as good as Jordan's so it wasn't used as much. He didn't just stand outside and shoot threes. Hedo is good at handling the ball which is why he handles the ball. Rashard actually has better "handles" so to speak, but in crunch time, Van Gundy allowed Hedo to handle the ball, in the playoffs. And the PGs who were more adept at handling the ball. Toni was a better ballhandler than either of the other two and had the skill to play point forward legitmately. He was a great passer and at the time was considered one of the league's most versatile big men offensively. Toni couldn't guard sf and pfs, BG cannot guard PG and SGs. No doubt BG is a better scorer so ppg notwithstanding, Toni brings other things to the table offensively, had a higher basketball IQ and was much more of a mismatch. His ability to take PFs off the dribble and post SFs was a big asset to those Bulls teams.

At the end of the day, they were both good for the Bulls, but I stress, NEITHER deserves their number retired. Neither one...point blank.

Now for the next argument, best #24, Cartwright or Tyrus?.......:laugh:

 

[clonetrooper264]

houheffna wrote:

They all suck defensively. Toni had a low post game also, it wasn't as good as Jordan's so it wasn't used as much. He didn't just stand outside and shoot threes. Hedo is good at handling the ball which is why he handles the ball. Rashard actually has better "handles" so to speak, but in crunch time, Van Gundy allowed Hedo to handle the ball, in the playoffs. And the PGs who were more adept at handling the ball. Toni was a better ballhandler than either of the other two and had the skill to play point forward legitmately. He was a great passer and at the time was considered one of the league's most versatile big men offensively. Toni couldn't guard sf and pfs, BG cannot guard PG and SGs. No doubt BG is a better scorer so ppg notwithstanding, Toni brings other things to the table offensively, had a higher basketball IQ and was much more of a mismatch. His ability to take PFs off the dribble and post SFs was a big asset to those Bulls teams.

At the end of the day, they were both good for the Bulls, but I stress, NEITHER deserves their number retired. Neither one...point blank.

Now for the next argument, best #24, Cartwright or Tyrus?.......:laugh:

That might be crazy enough to work :silly: :laugh:

 

[Bullsman24]

i think that kukoc is a perfect complement player, similar to scottie pippen. BG is a better centerpiece to a team. neither is very good at it, but kukoc couldn't do what gordon did in 07 when he would have had a strong team around him. but if you have derrick rose and kukoc with this team, it's going to be much better than BG and derrick rose because kukoc does a lot of things BG doesn't.

so i think that you can't really compare two totally different players. BG had more effect as a bull, but kukoc was the more effective player, if that makes sense.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

They all suck defensively. Toni had a low post game also, it wasn't as good as Jordan's so it wasn't used as much. He didn't just stand outside and shoot threes. Hedo is good at handling the ball which is why he handles the ball. Rashard actually has better "handles" so to speak, but in crunch time, Van Gundy allowed Hedo to handle the ball, in the playoffs. And the PGs who were more adept at handling the ball. Toni was a better ballhandler than either of the other two and had the skill to play point forward legitmately. He was a great passer and at the time was considered one of the league's most versatile big men offensively. Toni couldn't guard sf and pfs, BG cannot guard PG and SGs. No doubt BG is a better scorer so ppg notwithstanding, Toni brings other things to the table offensively, had a higher basketball IQ and was much more of a mismatch. His ability to take PFs off the dribble and post SFs was a big asset to those Bulls teams.

At the end of the day, they were both good for the Bulls, but I stress, NEITHER deserves their number retired. Neither one...point blank.

Now for the next argument, best #24, Cartwright or Tyrus?.......:laugh:

Sigh, how is hedo a good ball handler? He was only given that opportunity after the team lost its starting PG. He didn't have good assist numbers and had a high turnover rate. Hedo is not a good ball handler, he is also an average play maker. I would rather have a pre prime BG then prime Hedo, because even a prime Hedo is average at best. Hedo has only put together two good years, BG's career so far is more impressive. Toni was a better playmaker but he also had two top 50 players to take the pressure off him. A lot more of toni's shots were given to him wide open or penetration by pump faking a defender running out at him, BG just doesn't get those oppurtunities. He has never played with anyone half as good as MJ. Hedo gets the same open shots playing off of howard, the magic pretty much dump it inside to Howard till he gets doubled and kicks it out to shooters.

But I agree, neither should have their number retired as a bull. If BG would have resigned here, he would have had a good chance.