Who was the better #7? BG or Toni?

[houheffna]

If the coach takes the ball out of capable point guards hands, and puts it in your hands at crunchtime in the playoffs against championship level teams, its because he has faith in your ability to handle the ball against the opponent. If Hedo is average, he is better at it than Gordon is. Plus he has more of a mentality of a player who spreads the ball around rather than shoot first. But there is no way Van Gundy gives him the ball at that position if he feels that Hedo is not capable of handling the job.

But the point was that Hedo was a poor man's Kukoc in many ways, and I felt that Hedo was a slightly better basketball player all around than Gordon. Kukoc is better at basketball than the both of them.

That said, who would you take, Dominique or Pippen? Dominique was a great scorer and franchise player, his skillset allowed that to happen. Pippen had franchise player skill in that he could do just about everything on the floor on both sides of the floor, but was not really able to mentally step up to the plate. If I needed a franchise player to build a team around, I would most likely take Dominique who had the mentality of a allstar franchise player. However, when speaking of an overall game, Scottie was all-league NBA just like Wilkins, but was a perennial all-league defensive player too, Who was a better ballhandler and brought more versatility. Some would say Dominique is better, others would say Scottie. It all depends on what you are looking at. It is the same with Kukoc and Gordon. Kukoc had a better all around game and could do more on the floor, Gordon is a better scorer. What I look at is how does a player contributes to a team success. Some can do more than others. That is in every sport.

You ever heard people say Walter Payton was the best football player they ever saw. It was because he could do so many things well. Best running back ever? Maybe not, best football player? Probably so. I would say Jim Brown best RB ever, Walter Payton, better football player. My opinion. I grade NBA players in a similar fashion. I think Gordon is a very good scorer, but I believe that he is not a top 25 player in the league. There are just better ballplayers in the league than Gordon. That is why I have the opinions that I do.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

If the coach takes the ball out of capable point guards hands, and puts it in your hands at crunchtime in the playoffs against championship level teams, its because he has faith in your ability to handle the ball against the opponent. If Hedo is average, he is better at it than Gordon is. Plus he has more of a mentality of a player who spreads the ball around rather than shoot first. But there is no way Van Gundy gives him the ball at that position if he feels that Hedo is not capable of handling the job.

But the point was that Hedo was a poor man's Kukoc in many ways, and I felt that Hedo was a slightly better basketball player all around than Gordon. Kukoc is better at basketball than the both of them.

That said, who would you take, Dominique or Pippen? Dominique was a great scorer and franchise player, his skillset allowed that to happen. Pippen had franchise player skill in that he could do just about everything on the floor on both sides of the floor, but was not really able to mentally step up to the plate. If I needed a franchise player to build a team around, I would most likely take Dominique who had the mentality of a allstar franchise player. However, when speaking of an overall game, Scottie was all-league NBA just like Wilkins, but was a perennial all-league defensive player too, Who was a better ballhandler and brought more versatility. Some would say Dominique is better, others would say Scottie. It all depends on what you are looking at. It is the same with Kukoc and Gordon. Kukoc had a better all around game and could do more on the floor, Gordon is a better scorer. What I look at is how does a player contributes to a team success. Some can do more than others. That is in every sport.

You ever heard people say Walter Payton was the best football player they ever saw. It was because he could do so many things well. Best running back ever? Maybe not, best football player? Probably so. I would say Jim Brown best RB ever, Walter Payton, better football player. My opinion. I grade NBA players in a similar fashion. I think Gordon is a very good scorer, but I believe that he is not a top 25 player in the league. There are just better ballplayers in the league than Gordon. That is why I have the opinions that I do.

The coach didn't do that buy choice, he did it by necessity. The point guard you are talking about just came back early from a major injury that cost him half the year and was extremly rusty. He didn't just out of the blue make him the primary ball handler. Not to mention, that BG also gets the ball in similar spots at the end of the game. Lets not make it that Hedo is doing what chris paul does. Your "great ball handler" also has a higher turnover rate and more tunrovers than bg. Hedo just creates more for others which is good, but he isn't that good at it.

I agree, Toni is probably better than Hedo. BG is better than all of them, he is clearly the most skilled player. You also undervalue scoring, if MJ averaged 25ppg instead of 30ppg, would he still be the greatest of all time. Lets not kid ourselves, when you look at players that are all time greats, scoring is half the game and thats primarly what the greats are known for. MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Bird and Magic(more passing), take away 6 ppg from any of them and they disappear off the list. That is the difference in career scoring average between Hedo and BG. Its even greater for Toni and BG. Scoring isn't everything but when you are a SG, that is your primary objective. Not to mention, that if BG continues on his pace, he will finish as one of the greatest 3pt shooters of all time, he will be up there with Miller and Allen.

Thats a pretty bad example. Wilkins never made an all defense team and Pippen was one of the best defensive players of all time. Thats not a fair example at all, BG is a better defender than Hedo, who is one of the worst in the league. But I will play ball with it and ammend it a little to make sense, change Pippen to Grant Hill and it will be much more valid. And I would take Wilkins 9/10 depending on the teams construction. The exception would be if I had a MJ or Kobe that absolutely dominated the ball.

I don't follow football except occasionally casually, so I don't follow at all.

 

[houheffna]

The coach had a choice, he had 2 PGs on the roster didnt he? He did not have to use Hedo in that situation. What is Gordon skilled at exactly? I need to get updated on BG's skills because I have missed something. BG is not a better defender than Hedo, BG does not defend! Defense is out of the equation, offensively Kukoc can do more on the basketball floor, point blank. Magic was a horrendous defender, but he was a great basketball player because of his all around offensive game. There are players in the league who have more skills than just scoring. Someone like Lamar Odom comes to mind. He has a lot of skills, he can do a lot more things well on the basketball court than can BG so I would consider him a better player. Joe Johnson, same thing. Kukoc was a versatile big man who could score adeptly from just about anywhere on the court, handle the ball and run an offense. His offensive versatility was his strongpoint. My point about Scottie is that people who recognize him as a better player than Dominique looks at everything Scottie could do on the floor. Defense is a skill, so is ballhandling. Dominique couldn't defend on Scottie's level, BG couldnt handle the ball, pass the ball, or post up and score down low like Kukoc. That is why Kukoc was a better player.

 

[RC_Skinny22]

houheffna wrote:

BG couldnt handle the ball, pass the ball, or post up and score down low like Kukoc

How could he? Kukoc is 6´11. Gordon is only 6´1. One more point why I say you can´t compare these two players.

 

[houheffna]

Sam Cassell can post up, so could Gary Payton, on the other hand Karl Malone wasn't that great at it, neither is Kevin Garnett. So it is not just a skill that comes with height. Low post game is a skill that has to be worked on and refined.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

The coach had a choice, he had 2 PGs on the roster didnt he? He did not have to use Hedo in that situation. What is Gordon skilled at exactly? I need to get updated on BG's skills because I have missed something. BG is not a better defender than Hedo, BG does not defend! Defense is out of the equation, offensively Kukoc can do more on the basketball floor, point blank. Magic was a horrendous defender, but he was a great basketball player because of his all around offensive game. There are players in the league who have more skills than just scoring. Someone like Lamar Odom comes to mind. He has a lot of skills, he can do a lot more things well on the basketball court than can BG so I would consider him a better player. Joe Johnson, same thing. Kukoc was a versatile big man who could score adeptly from just about anywhere on the court, handle the ball and run an offense. His offensive versatility was his strongpoint. My point about Scottie is that people who recognize him as a better player than Dominique looks at everything Scottie could do on the floor. Defense is a skill, so is ballhandling. Dominique couldn't defend on Scottie's level, BG couldnt handle the ball, pass the ball, or post up and score down low like Kukoc. That is why Kukoc was a better player.

No he didn't have a choice, he had a really rusty pg and a backup. When Nelson was healthy, Hedo didn't control the ball like he did. Point blank, Hedo wasn't let go because of a business move to pursue cap space or avoid the LT. Magic management choose not to resign him for a reason.

If you don't know what skills BG has, you can't be watching anything more than the highlight reel and even then you would still see BG so I can't put this a nicer way than questioning if you've seen a bulls game.

Again, you haven't been watching bulls games if you think BG doesn't defend or is as bad as Hedo. You are just piping the same old BG stereotypes that BG can't do anything more than shoot and is a defensive liability. At this point in his career, BG is considered an average defender. BG doesn't give up huge games to people, BG is an average defender, it is ridiculous to debate otherwise. Hedo is regarded as one of the worst defensive players in the league. You can clearly see the difference in their defensive rating.

Toni has diverse skills, he could do a little bit of everything. BG, is not the passer Toni was and couldn't intiate the offense, which is why he wasn't a PG. But BG had elite skills at a couple of things. Something Hedo or Kukoc never did. BG could always get his shot off and was an elite shooter, it comes down to depth vs diversity. I would rather have a player with elite skill that is average at everything else, than slightly above averaged all around players. Those all around players are much easier to find.

Defense is a skill but trying to use Pip vs Wilkins as an anology is deeply flawed. Pippen was one of the best defensive players of all time. That is the only reason I would take him over Wilkins. But none of BG, Hedo or Kukoc are that far and away better defensively than one another. According to you, none of them defend. If you take away Pippen's defense, than you get Grant Hill. And I would take Wilkins over hill. The only reason, I would take Pippen is his all world defense to shutdown and any pg, sf or sg in the league. You fail to notice that all the greats in the game are primarly great scorers. If you take away 5-6ppg from Kareem, MJ or Wilt, do they still stand out of the pact? No, and thats what you give up with Kukoc and Hedo. Both respectively averaged 5-6 to ppg less during their careers. Loosing 5-6 ppg in any postion is devestating.

I am not going to debate this anymore because everyone on this fourm has been through this arguement with you and you are less flexible than a brick wall. You keep spewing the same BG propoganda and its really getting old and inhibts having a real conversation. How can you attempt to have a discussion who doesn't know BG's skills and still says he doesn't play defense. Its a lose lose proposition with you.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Sam Cassell can post up, so could Gary Payton, on the other hand Karl Malone wasn't that great at it, neither is Kevin Garnett. So it is not just a skill that comes with height. Low post game is a skill that has to be worked on and refined.

Its far less common for perimeter players to post up, then low post players. For every same cassel, GP, MJ, and Kobe, I can name 10 that can't post up. Its not a normal skill for those types of players to have, same as you don't see Shaq bringing the ball up the floor.

 

[clonetrooper264]

TheStig wrote:

houheffna wrote:

Sam Cassell can post up, so could Gary Payton, on the other hand Karl Malone wasn't that great at it, neither is Kevin Garnett. So it is not just a skill that comes with height. Low post game is a skill that has to be worked on and refined.

Its far less common for perimeter players to post up, then low post players. For every same cassel, GP, MJ, and Kobe, I can name 10 that can't post up. Its not a normal skill for those types of players to have, same as you don't see Shaq bringing the ball up the floor.

That is as long as it's not the all star game

 

[TheStig]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

houheffna wrote:

Sam Cassell can post up, so could Gary Payton, on the other hand Karl Malone wasn't that great at it, neither is Kevin Garnett. So it is not just a skill that comes with height. Low post game is a skill that has to be worked on and refined.

Its far less common for perimeter players to post up, then low post players. For every same cassel, GP, MJ, and Kobe, I can name 10 that can't post up. Its not a normal skill for those types of players to have, same as you don't see Shaq bringing the ball up the floor.

That is as long as it's not the all star game

Lol, I guess he is only a complete player then.

 

[houheffna]

Well, it doesn't matter how many or what percentage at that position can do the skill, it is a skill. And post play is a vital skill to have in the NBA. By the way, you named one skill, scoring, and I already know that BG could score but Kukoc was a better ballhandler. That is unusual. Kukoc could handle the ball better than a 6'0" off guard. He could also pass the ball better. He was a player who caused mismatches because of his ability to handle and run an offense. I don't think BG is an average defender. If he was average, they wouldn't have had to make defensive substitutions. They would sub him out of the game constantly when the Bulls were on defense. BG can be a defensive liability.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Well, it doesn't matter how many or what percentage at that position can do the skill, it is a skill. And post play is a vital skill to have in the NBA. By the way, you named one skill, scoring, and I already know that BG could score but Kukoc was a better ballhandler. That is unusual. Kukoc could handle the ball better than a 6'0" off guard. He could also pass the ball better. He was a player who caused mismatches because of his ability to handle and run an offense. I don't think BG is an average defender. If he was average, they wouldn't have had to make defensive substitutions. They would sub him out of the game constantly when the Bulls were on defense. BG can be a defensive liability.

You undervalue scoring, a lot. All of the players in discussions for goat were scorers first. Again you fail to answer the question, would MJ, Wilt, or Kareem be in discussions for GOAT of all time if they were merely average scorers? Does MJ make the HOF only scoring 20ppg? Scoring is the primary skill in basketball, it is a game of who can outSCORE the other opponent. Its not the nba skills competition out there, not that I undervalue ball handling but you can bring in minimum salary players to handle the ball. You can't bring in a minimum salary 20ppg scorer. Post play is a vital skill, we have been dying for a post player for years, but Kukoc being able to occasionally exploit a smaller defender is not the same as having shaq in the post. Most of Kukoc;s offense was perimeter oriented and he was far too soft to bang in the post. Again, I am not sure how effective he was, you have made him into this immense offensive talent but he is a career 11.6 ppg scorer, with all this diversity and talent he should have been better, don't you agree? Again, when in the last 2 years have they had to sub out for BG? For more than half the year they were doing that for Rose, BG and Kirk would play down the stretch. The only time I remember them doing that recently was when BG was hurt and they would switch him out for the last play, but that is because Kirk is a better defender, not because BG isn't an average defender. Why don't you name some people who went off on BG during the year? Who exploited him defensively? Since its common, you should have have 20-40 games right? It is just the classic BG propaganda that he dribbles off his shoe, can only shoot and is a defensive liability.

 

[houheffna]

MJ, Kareem, Wilt, all of those guys could play ball man! Wilt was a great rebounder and defender at his best. Would MJ, enough said. Check out Kareem's numbers. Magic had many skills. You are comparing apples and oranges. Like it or not, Gordon is a good scorer, not good enough to be an allstar though. And that is all that he is good at. I am not going to say great scorer, but he is a good scorer or a very good scorer. Yes, there are great, one dimensional players, who cannot defend, rebound, handle the ball, just score. Gervin comes to mind, Miller may be another but Gordon is not that good. My point is that guys who are multifaceted in their gameplay, may not score like Gordon (Are you saying that due to Kukoc's ppg, he was not a good scorer?) but he was a good scorer in his own right and he could do other things on the court at an above average level. That makes him a better player. It is why Gordon is not a top 5 SG and he is not top 25 in the league, he is pretty good at one thing...that is it.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

MJ, Kareem, Wilt, all of those guys could play ball man! Wilt was a great rebounder and defender at his best. Would MJ, enough said. Check out Kareem's numbers. Magic had many skills. You are comparing apples and oranges. Like it or not, Gordon is a good scorer, not good enough to be an allstar though. And that is all that he is good at. I am not going to say great scorer, but he is a good scorer or a very good scorer. Yes, there are great, one dimensional players, who cannot defend, rebound, handle the ball, just score. Gervin comes to mind, Miller may be another but Gordon is not that good. My point is that guys who are multifaceted in their gameplay, may not score like Gordon (Are you saying that due to Kukoc's ppg, he was not a good scorer?) but he was a good scorer in his own right and he could do other things on the court at an above average level. That makes him a better player. It is why Gordon is not a top 5 SG and he is not top 25 in the league, he is pretty good at one thing...that is it.

Again, that isn't the question. Is MJ the GOAT and do the bulls win 6 rings if he was a 24ppg scorer? He certainly wouldn't have any scoring titles. I don't think so, MJ's career numbers would compare to the Carter's, the Tmacs and the Drexlers of the world. What made MJ the GOAT is his scoring ability first. I am not trying to compare BG to MJ. But the difference in dropping 5-6 ppg in a scorer is huge and that is the difference between BG's level and Kukoc and Hedo. Kukoc and Hedo are also one dimensional, their offense skills are just more diverse and less deep. Neither of those guys can rebound or defend either and again, you haven't show why where you come up with that BG isn't an average defender. Show me where he was killed defensively, if he is a bad defender you should have 20-30 games easily to prove your point. Kukoc isn't that good of a scorer, he is more of a 4th option and came off the bench most of his career. His offensive game was well rounded as he was a little above average at everything but he couldn't guard anyone on the floor, was a terrible rebounder and soft. He was a very flawed player, which is why he was never a starter. BG is able to start and has proven that he can play defense and not get pushed around.

Gordon actually does compare pretty well compared to Miller and Allen during their first five years in the league. I would say he puts up 90% of the numbers each of them did and the only ones that deviate are that Ray Allen was a better rebounder and Reggie Miller was a better 2pt shooter. Here are their numbers, they are pretty similar. They are even more comparable if you look at the per 36 numbers since BG didn't get as many minutes as those guys did.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=1Ihxv

No one ever said BG is a top 5 sg. I would say he is 6-10. And he is paid like it. He makes what the rips, ginibolis and kevin martins of the world do. He is in that secondary tier. Those are a group of border line allstars. Again, no one said top 25, I would put him in the top 50. There are at least 40 guys in the league that will make more than him next year. I would have loved to have him for the 6/54, that would be a steal but I don't think his current deal makes him vastly overpaid.

 

[??? ??????]

TheStig, Gordon is actually the best young three point shooter in NBA history.

http://www.basketball-reference.com...&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=fg3

Those are stats from the first 5 years of a players career. If you resort that by 3PT% (of the top 100 players in making 3PT shots), Gordon is #3 behind only Mark Price and Hubert Davis, both of whom had less than half of the made 3PT shots that Gordon had.

 

[clonetrooper264]

??? ?????? wrote:

TheStig, Gordon is actually the best young three point shooter in NBA history.

http://www.basketball-reference.com...&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=fg3

Those are stats from the first 5 years of a players career. If you resort that by 3PT% (of the top 100 players in making 3PT shots), Gordon is #3 behind only Mark Price and Hubert Davis, both of whom had less than half of the made 3PT shots that Gordon had.

Cool Kirk Hinrich is #9 on that list

 

[??? ??????]

and #41 when sorted by the %.

Kirk Hinrich is a good three point shooter. But Ben Gordon is one of the best ever at that skill. Would have been nice to have multiple guys who could shoot the three.

That just speaks to how great Ben Gordon is. He's made that many at such a high percentage more than a guy like Hinrich, who is good in his own right...but Gordon's weren't wide open, while the vast majority of the guys on that list were making the majority of their threes wide open.

Ben was just a freak talent shooting the basketball, it's a shame that ownership couldn't see that.

 

[??? ??????]

houheffna wrote:

Well, it doesn't matter how many or what percentage at that position can do the skill, it is a skill. And post play is a vital skill to have in the NBA. By the way, you named one skill, scoring, and I already know that BG could score but Kukoc was a better ballhandler. That is unusual. Kukoc could handle the ball better than a 6'0" off guard. He could also pass the ball better. He was a player who caused mismatches because of his ability to handle and run an offense. I don't think BG is an average defender. If he was average, they wouldn't have had to make defensive substitutions. They would sub him out of the game constantly when the Bulls were on defense. BG can be a defensive liability.

You mean those defensive substitutions, in which the other team scored almost everytime on?

From a pure defensive strategy standpoint, it would have made the most sense to sub Hinrich in for Rose. (Except in the playoffs, when Gordon had the torn hamstring).

Although it's become quite clear that you judge players in what they theoretically could do on a basketball court based on their skills and size, rather than on the results they produce on the court.

 

[TheStig]

??? ?????? wrote:

TheStig, Gordon is actually the best young three point shooter in NBA history.

http://www.basketball-reference.com...&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=fg3

Those are stats from the first 5 years of a players career. If you resort that by 3PT% (of the top 100 players in making 3PT shots), Gordon is #3 behind only Mark Price and Hubert Davis, both of whom had less than half of the made 3PT shots that Gordon had.

I knew that, thanks, but according to the other guy that would just make him one dimensional, which is why I showed his career numbers as a whole compared well to ray allen and reggie miller through their first 5 yrs. I think very few realize that we let go this generations ray allen or reggie miller. Yeah, they aren't MJ or Bron or Shaq but for 6/54 I couldn't think of any better players in the league on that kind of contract. That value next to Rose and another star like Bosh or Amare, with Salmons and Noah, was a contender. Now we lost BG, we will have to lose TT and Salmons for a shot of a star, just so we can keep non impact players like kirk and Deng. I don't think Rose, Bosh or Amare and Deng is enough to contend. That to me seems like a perineal 2nd round team that doesn't have enough.

 

[TheStig]

??? ?????? wrote:

houheffna wrote:

Well, it doesn't matter how many or what percentage at that position can do the skill, it is a skill. And post play is a vital skill to have in the NBA. By the way, you named one skill, scoring, and I already know that BG could score but Kukoc was a better ballhandler. That is unusual. Kukoc could handle the ball better than a 6'0" off guard. He could also pass the ball better. He was a player who caused mismatches because of his ability to handle and run an offense. I don't think BG is an average defender. If he was average, they wouldn't have had to make defensive substitutions. They would sub him out of the game constantly when the Bulls were on defense. BG can be a defensive liability.

You mean those defensive substitutions, in which the other team scored almost everytime on?

From a pure defensive strategy standpoint, it would have made the most sense to sub Hinrich in for Rose. (Except in the playoffs, when Gordon had the torn hamstring).

Although it's become quite clear that you judge players in what they theoretically could do on a basketball court based on their skills and size, rather than on the results they produce on the court.

Exactly, I asked him a couple of times to name who lit up BG, since according to him it should be a common occurrence happening 20-30 times a year, but he hasn't named one.

I like Kirk too, he is a solid starting PG. If we didn't draft a star at that postion, I would have no problem with having Kirk on this team.

 

[houheffna]

Well guys, show me where Kukoc got destroyed over and over again stat wise. No coach sits there and lets that happen. But even the best, like Pippen got their asses handed to them from time to time. Because Pippen excelled defensively, there were no other options beside him. Show me where Magic, bad defender that he was, got hammered constantly. Didn't happen. Neither Rose or Gordon have the footwork at this time to keep opposing guards in front of them. And the Kobes and Roys of the world would chew Gordon up and spit him out in a playoff series, because he can do nothing to impede them from doing what they want to do offensively. You can only hope for bad shooting nights. As I said last night on the podcast, shooters have bad nights, but by no means does a bad shooting night by Joe Johnson mean that Gordon consistently stopped Joe Johnson, not at all.

Although it's become quite clear that you judge players in what they theoretically could do on a basketball court based on their skills and size, rather than on the results they produce on the court.

This isn't theory, I SAW the guy play, every game in his career as a Bull or 90% of them. How is a guy who uses a recently generated stat to decide who the best players are, going to talk to me about theory? When I ask if BG is better than Hedo, Vince Carter, Joe Johnson, Lamar Odom, you use a theorem to prove your case. So you should be the last to criticize someone else's evaluation...Mr. True Shooting Percentage.