Why is Luol Deng getting a free pass on offense?

[clonetrooper264]

Re:Why is Luol Deng getting a free pass on offense

So far he has shown the ability to hit the corner 3 with some degree of consistency. If this is as much 3pt shooting as we can hope from him, I'll take it. It makes him more dangerous and opens up the lane for Rose. I can see no problems with that. It would be nice if he could get a few more FT attempts per game by getting OR and cutting, but at this point I don't think we'll see much more FT's from him.

 

[Bullsman24]

Re:Why is Luol Deng getting a free pass on offense

yeah, but at least the lack of cutting might be a reason for less injury, so i'll take that

 

[Hendu0520]

Re:Why is Luol Deng getting a free pass on offense

Great post, Deng is sort of getting a pass because of his rebounding and defense. The contract is a done deal, we all know (except VDN) that Deng is not a go to offensive guy. I agree with Heff, we can't keep clearing it out for him to go one on one and we can't expect that from him just because VDN, Gorman, Paxson, and Reinsdorf want him to be that guy. This is about as good as we can get from Deng and he is playing hard. As Max Kellerman says "the time to criticize the fat girl isn't when she is sweaty working out". Deng is trying so we have to be happy with his effort, and the rest of the team can't keep playing this bad, come December if they are still shooting poorly I will start to panic a bit.

 

[maq25060]

??? ?????? wrote:

Why is Luol Deng getting a free pass on offense?

Probably b/c he's playing pretty well offensively.

you know EXACTLY why Luol Deng's TS% isn't higher, yet you choose to ignore that. Luol Deng's style of play will never be represented well by TS%, so to use this stat as "proof" that Deng isn't playing well offensively is kinda silly to me. When I watch the game, I am very pleased with what I see from Deng offensively.

 

[Hendu0520]

maq25060 wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

Why is Luol Deng getting a free pass on offense?

Probably b/c he's playing pretty well offensively.

you know EXACTLY why Luol Deng's TS% isn't higher, yet you choose to ignore that. Luol Deng's style of play will never be represented well by TS%, so to use this stat as "proof" that Deng isn't playing well offensively is kinda silly to me. When I watch the game, I am very pleased with what I see from Deng offensively.

Great point. Some people are like robots and they must not trust their own observations, stats alone in basketball do not tell the entire story. TS% goes into the category with +/- in my book, there are too many variables effecting it.

For example Rajon Rondo always has a high ts% would you call him a great offensive player? He can't shoot at all, he only shoots layups. Deng has to shoot outside so he will always have a lower ts% than Rondo, who cares.

 

[Shakes]

Why should we continue to give you a free pass for the fact you ignore his low turn over numbers and insist he's a below average offensive player based on only one aspect of offense?

 

[??? ??????]

maq25060 wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

Why is Luol Deng getting a free pass on offense?

Probably b/c he's playing pretty well offensively.

you know EXACTLY why Luol Deng's TS% isn't higher, yet you choose to ignore that. Luol Deng's style of play will never be represented well by TS%, so to use this stat as "proof" that Deng isn't playing well offensively is kinda silly to me. When I watch the game, I am very pleased with what I see from Deng offensively.

TS% is a measure of scoring. Luol Deng is well below the league average. It's not silly to use an offensive efficiency stat to see whether a guy is doing good or bad for your offense.

 

[TheStig]

Re:Why is Luol Deng getting a free pass on offense

houheffna wrote:

Nobody wants Deng pump faking. Deng should work to get open and hit jumpshots, if he slashes to the basket he should get the ball and go up with it as quickly as possible and should NOT get the ball to far out on the floor. Turning Deng into Anthony Mason under the basket is only going to cause another problem. Trying to turn Deng into something he is not right now will be counterproductive when he is one of the more consistent players on the team.

No one wants him to throw up a ton of pump fakes like he did last year, but the occasional one on a put back won't be a problem. Why do you make it so easy to accept him as a finished product. Do you want him to stop trying to improve? Simple things can help since all he likes to do is simple things. How hard is it to grab the rebound, come down, pump fake and go up instead of shooting contested put backs.

 

[maq25060]

??? ?????? wrote:

maq25060 wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

Why is Luol Deng getting a free pass on offense?

Probably b/c he's playing pretty well offensively.

you know EXACTLY why Luol Deng's TS% isn't higher, yet you choose to ignore that. Luol Deng's style of play will never be represented well by TS%, so to use this stat as "proof" that Deng isn't playing well offensively is kinda silly to me. When I watch the game, I am very pleased with what I see from Deng offensively.

TS% is a measure of scoring. Luol Deng is well below the league average. It's not silly to use an offensive efficiency stat to see whether a guy is doing good or bad for your offense.

well, for me, scoring isnt the only part of offense though it is the key.

also, TS% gives the edge to guys that make a good amount of 3 pointers and get to the free throw line a ton. neither of which has ever been Luol's game. yet Luol has for the most part normally been a very good offensive player. Luol's game is built around the mid to long range jumper and slashing off the ball to receive a pass when his man is already beat (and thus not very likely to foul). while i wish Luol's game was a bit more advanced, we already knew what it was when the season started. and he's currently doing pretty well within the limits of his offensive game.

i dont know much about the advanced statics, but i certainly imagine that .506 isn't "well below" the league average of .530...ESPECIALLY this early in the season.

also, since we're only focusing on TS% and not what we're seeing on the floor, Deng's current production offensively is good enough for 3rd best on this team right now, only behind Joakim Noah and Taj Gibson...i can't imagine people would say Luol is playing worse offensively for us than Taj Gibson.

 

[houheffna]

No one wants him to throw up a ton of pump fakes like he did last year, but the occasional one on a put back won't be a problem. Why do you make it so easy to accept him as a finished product. Do you want him to stop trying to improve? Simple things can help since all he likes to do is simple things. How hard is it to grab the rebound, come down, pump fake and go up instead of shooting contested put backs.

Deng is not very athletic, and has some fundamental problems with dribbling and shooting from 3 which makes him an unconventional small forward. But I think he is a decent player. I said that he was the best player on this team's best post-Jordan team...hands down. But even then, I said to a friend of mine "he is not going to get much better than this...", he might get smarter, that is what I am hoping for but I don't think he is going to get much better. Matter of fact I said that about Deng, Hinrich and Gordon...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

No one wants him to throw up a ton of pump fakes like he did last year, but the occasional one on a put back won't be a problem. Why do you make it so easy to accept him as a finished product. Do you want him to stop trying to improve? Simple things can help since all he likes to do is simple things. How hard is it to grab the rebound, come down, pump fake and go up instead of shooting contested put backs.

Deng is not very athletic, and has some fundamental problems with dribbling and shooting from 3 which makes him an unconventional small forward. But I think he is a decent player. I said that he was the best player on this team's best post-Jordan team...hands down. But even then, I said to a friend of mine "he is not going to get much better than this...", he might get smarter, that is what I am hoping for but I don't think he is going to get much better. Matter of fact I said that about Deng, Hinrich and Gordon...

Smarter is doing the little things I described. Its not hard and he has been really good at the corner three so far (3/4).

 

[houheffna]

Okay...if you want to call pump faking continuously smarter...so be it.

As far as Deng being so good with the corner three. That is an awfully small sample size. All of a sudden he's Bruce Bowen? I don't think so...let's wait and see. His game is fine the way it is. Others need to get better. Don't over think things.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Okay...if you want to call pump faking continuously smarter...so be it.

As far as Deng being so good with the corner three. That is an awfully small sample size. All of a sudden he's Bruce Bowen? I don't think so...let's wait and see. His game is fine the way it is. Others need to get better. Don't over think things.

Did you even read my post? Or could you not wait to crap on it? I said an occasional pump fake after an offensive rebound wouldn't hurt and working in a corner three is not going to make him bruce bowen not sure what you mean by that, he isn't near the lockdown defender. I don't get why you wouldn't want him to get better? Maybe you like this team being lovable losers?

 

[??? ??????]

maq25060 wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

maq25060 wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

Why is Luol Deng getting a free pass on offense?

Probably b/c he's playing pretty well offensively.

you know EXACTLY why Luol Deng's TS% isn't higher, yet you choose to ignore that. Luol Deng's style of play will never be represented well by TS%, so to use this stat as "proof" that Deng isn't playing well offensively is kinda silly to me. When I watch the game, I am very pleased with what I see from Deng offensively.

TS% is a measure of scoring. Luol Deng is well below the league average. It's not silly to use an offensive efficiency stat to see whether a guy is doing good or bad for your offense.

well, for me, scoring isnt the only part of offense though it is the key.

also, TS% gives the edge to guys that make a good amount of 3 pointers and get to the free throw line a ton. neither of which has ever been Luol's game. yet Luol has for the most part normally been a very good offensive player. Luol's game is built around the mid to long range jumper and slashing off the ball to receive a pass when his man is already beat (and thus not very likely to foul). while i wish Luol's game was a bit more advanced, we already knew what it was when the season started. and he's currently doing pretty well within the limits of his offensive game.

i dont know much about the advanced statics, but i certainly imagine that .506 isn't "well below" the league average of .530...ESPECIALLY this early in the season.

also, since we're only focusing on TS% and not what we're seeing on the floor, Deng's current production offensively is good enough for 3rd best on this team right now, only behind Joakim Noah and Taj Gibson...i can't imagine people would say Luol is playing worse offensively for us than Taj Gibson.

And there in lies the Luol Deng problem. His game isn't conducive to scoring the ball efficiently.

There are a simple truths to scoring in basketball.

1. Three points is more than two points.
2. The free throw is the second highest percentage shot in basketball behind the dunk/layup.

That's why players who can shoot the three, get a lot of free throws, or both are the best scorers in basketball.

I think Luol Deng is the best option now for the Bulls, but that just mean's he's sucking less on this side of the court, than the other guys. I think though, that it's clear that the Bulls need a high efficiency scorer on this team next year (Bosh/Amare would obviously be great). And hopefully that guy can open up the offense for others, to allow them to score more efficiently.

 

[maq25060]

the bulls could certainly use a more efficient scorer, especially as their main option. but i dont think anyone can say Deng is playing bad offensively. that's just simply not true and it screams stat watching.

 

[Shakes]

??? ?????? wrote:

I think though, that it's clear that the Bulls need a high efficiency scorer on this team next year

You could make that statement about every Bulls team since 97-98 and be correct.

 

[??? ??????]

maq25060 wrote:

the bulls could certainly use a more efficient scorer, especially as their main option. but i dont think anyone can say Deng is playing bad offensively. that's just simply not true and it screams stat watching.

I think that there is a clear case that Deng is having a bad year offensively. He's not scoring efficiently, and that's bad. I think the problem is that we see Deng within the context of the Bulls, and within the context of the Bulls, Deng looks pretty good offensively, because everyone else sucks really really bad so far this year.

 

[??? ??????]

Shakes wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

I think though, that it's clear that the Bulls need a high efficiency scorer on this team next year

You could make that statement about every Bulls team since 97-98 and be correct.

Not true.

06-07 had Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Kirk Hinrich, and Andres Nocioni all scoring efficiently.

07-08 had Ben Gordon scoring efficiently.

08-09 we had Ben Gordon, Kirk Hinrich, John Salmons, and I believe Brad Miller scoring efficiently.

 

[maq25060]

??? ?????? wrote:

maq25060 wrote:

the bulls could certainly use a more efficient scorer, especially as their main option. but i dont think anyone can say Deng is playing bad offensively. that's just simply not true and it screams stat watching.

I think that there is a clear case that Deng is having a bad year offensively. He's not scoring efficiently, and that's bad. I think the problem is that we see Deng within the context of the Bulls, and within the context of the Bulls, Deng looks pretty good offensively, because everyone else sucks really really bad so far this year.

Deng's not having a bad year offensively though...just b/c he's not scoring the ball at an uber efficiency doesn't mean he's having a bad year offensively

this isn't to say he's having a great or even good year offensively...but bad would not be the correct way to describe it either...especially when you consider what our other "scorers" are doing

 

[Shakes]

??? ?????? wrote:

Shakes wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

I think though, that it's clear that the Bulls need a high efficiency scorer on this team next year

You could make that statement about every Bulls team since 97-98 and be correct.

Not true.

We're currently 27th offensively.

06-07 had Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Kirk Hinrich, and Andres Nocioni all scoring efficiently.

And we were well below average offensively (22nd).

07-08 had Ben Gordon scoring efficiently.

And we were well below average offensively (26th).

08-09 we had Ben Gordon, Kirk Hinrich, John Salmons, and I believe Brad Miller scoring efficiently.

And we squeaked in 0.1 points/100 above average offensively (14th). I guess I was wrong when I said Gordon had never played on an above average offensive team. :blush:

I wouldn't say any of those seasons were at a level that we could say we didn't need another efficient scorer.