Why people expect Deng to take less than David West and Andre Inglodala?

[houheffna]

Again, Deng averaged 18 a game against Miami. Again, Deng was not the problem. If Rose was double team that means someone else was open. Rose CHOSE to shoot. Even MJ passed to Paxson after Phil pointed out who was open. So I am not buying Rose did not have help. Rose chose to go 1 on 5.

He had help, not enough help. And Deng doesn't compare to Pippen. That was just horrible reasoning man. I agree that Rose played badly in that series, but he had the most talented player physically in league history guarding him. That is when the number 2 guy has to step up.

 

[Silverwulf]

It is very disrespectful in that context. No wonder 3/30 was a joke. David West got 3/36 for Christ's sake. Does that mean Deng is less important to the Bulls success? Thibs would have had no problem with this.

Three very different scenarios.
For example, Iguodala was the "final piece" to GS's puzzle. They needed to upgrade their SF position ... Iguodala was the best SF available, so they unloaded everything they could and gave him everything they could scrape together. Other teams actually offered him more, but he turned them down for a chance to play with a young contending team. In a different year, some team with tons of cap space may have offered him even more money, but that doesn't mean he's really worth that much. Not in the sense of trying to build a contending team around him.

Why not ask the question "Isn't it disrespectful that the Bulls would offer Deng only 10 mil a year after they threw 15 million a year at Boozer?"
There's no question Deng is a better player than Boozer, but the Bulls situation dictated that that year they needed to fill the PF position in order to have a chance to contend. So they threw way too much money at Boozer, because he was the last best available option. Not because he was actually worth that much.

 

[cjswan232482]

:enough:

Pippen was an eight-time All-NBA 1st team Defensive selection, three-time All-NBA 1st team -- Pippen completely carried the Bulls during Jordan's gambling suspen- er, his 'baseball sabbatical'. That season he put up: 22/9/5 with three steals, a block, 50% shooting from the floor, was one of the best all-around seasons of th e last 25 years. Deng's absolute best doesn't come close to holding a candle to what Pippen ever did.

Pippen was nowhere near the same player once he got out that triangle. Pippen, like Deng, was a system player. Deng would have fit that triangle like a glove. The Triangle was ALL about off the ball movement, totally Deng's game. Pippen was a decent ballhandler but don't make him Magic.

 

[Silverwulf]

The problem wasn't that Deng wasn't a good enough no.2. The problem was and is that you couldn't count on Derrick Rose as a No.1. Even when healthy Rose struggled against LeBron and Miami as much as anyone in 2011. After that, injuries derailed Rose. Deng averaged 18 against Miami while Rose shot 35%. The shame is that we still don't know how good the Bulls could have been.

Even if the Bulls signed LeBron instead of Boozer, Rose's injuries would have sabotaged things.

I agree that Rose didn't handle having Lebron switch over to play him. He wasn't ready to deal with it ... and frankly, he still isn't. But that doesn't clear Deng from not being a "good enough no.2". In fact, it only goes to highlight just how little of an impact Deng was having out there.
If Lebron switches onto Rose, who's guarding Deng? Many times it was Chalmers ... sometimes the Heat went big and it was a guy like Haslem or Mike Miller instead. Chalmers and Mike Miller ... and Deng couldn't do a thing out there. That's NOT #2 star level play.

The Bulls had one #1 Star ... Rose ... who struggled to play up to his abilities. And after that, they had three #3 stars ... Deng, Noah, and Boozer. None of which were able to exploit their mismatch significantly enough to make a difference.

 

[houheffna]

Pippen was nowhere near the same player once he got out that triangle. Pippen, like Deng, was a system player. Deng would have fit that triangle like a glove. The Triangle was ALL about off the ball movement, totally Deng's game. Pippen was a decent ballhandler but don't make him Magic.

Pippen was Jordan's player! Jordan trained and worked with him. His greatness is more attributed to practicing and being taught by the greatest ever opposed to the offensive system he was in. And Pippen was nowhere near the same player because he was 33, 34 years old by the time he left that system.

I don't think anybody is calling Pippen another Magic Johnson. I am saying Deng is Edward Scissorhands when it comes to dribbling the ball. And Deng is not athletic at all. Comparing him to Pippen and Worthy just doesn't make sense.

 

[cjswan232482]

Three very different scenarios.
For example, Iguodala was the "final piece" to GS's puzzle. They needed to upgrade their SF position ... Iguodala was the best SF available, so they unloaded everything they could and gave him everything they could scrape together. Other teams actually offered him more, but he turned them down for a chance to play with a young contending team. In a different year, some team with tons of cap space may have offered him even more money, but that doesn't mean he's really worth that much. Not in the sense of trying to build a contending team around him.

Why not ask the question "Isn't it disrespectful that the Bulls would offer Deng only 10 mil a year after they threw 15 million a year at Boozer?"
There's no question Deng is a better player than Boozer, but the Bulls situation dictated that that year they needed to fill the PF position in order to have a chance to contend. So they threw way too much money at Boozer, because he was the last best available option. Not because he was actually worth that much.

Apples and Oranges. Deng never put up the numbers Boozer did in his prime and we needed a post game. Don't be stupid. I think Boozer was underutilized for much of his tenure by Rose and Thibs. Thibs is probably the only coach that would have kept Boozer off the court for defensive purposes. Boozer got market price for his credentials. His last season at Utah he put 20 and 11. You are simply not getting that at $10 mil a year. Considering Amare got $20 mil a year, Boozer was money well spent. Don't think for one second Taj did not learn post moves from Boozer over the years. Boozer still gives 16/9 and has been the Bulls most durable and reliable player the past 4 years. You know what you are going to get. Again, money well spent. No shame losing to Miami in 2011, OKC did too. We could have played better and learned from that experience HAD ROSE STAYED HEALTHY.

 

[Silverwulf]

Apples and Oranges. Deng never put up the numbers Boozer did in his prime and we needed a post game. Don't be stupid. I think Boozer was underutilized for much of his tenure by Rose and Thibs. Thibs is probably the only coach that would have kept Boozer off the court for defensive purposes. Boozer got market price for his credentials. His last season at Utah he put 20 and 11. You are simply not getting that at $10 mil a year. Considering Amare got $20 mil a year, Boozer was money well spent. Don't think for one second Taj did not learn post moves from Boozer over the years. No shame losing to Miami in 2011, OKC did too. We could have played better and learned from that experience HAD ROSE STAYED HEALTHY.

Wait, you're comparing Luol Deng to Scottie Pippen and then telling people to not be stupid?
Are you suggesting for one second that Boozer is a better player than Deng? Now who's being stupid?
Yes, Boozer can score the ball. But if any team should by now realize who's the better ball player, it's the Bulls.
And frankly, I have no doubt you could ask the two of them ... and every other player on the Bulls team ... and you'd get the same answer. Deng is the better player.

 

[cjswan232482]

Pippen was Jordan's player! Jordan trained and worked with him. His greatness is more attributed to practicing and being taught by the greatest ever opposed to the offensive system he was in. And Pippen was nowhere near the same player because he was 33, 34 years old by the time he left that system.

I don't think anybody is calling Pippen another Magic Johnson. I am saying Deng is Edward Scissorhands when it comes to dribbling the ball. And Deng is not athletic at all. Comparing him to Pippen and Worthy just doesn't make sense.

You don't think MJ could not have elevated Deng? Come on. The triangle was the best thing that happened to the Bulls and Pippen. It forced everyone to get involved instead of watching MJ do it. That is when the Bulls took off. Pippen looked totally different once he left that triangle. It was like taking Montana out of the West Coast. Pippen looked lost playing in Houston and just a guy in Portland statwise.

 

[cjswan232482]

Wait, you're comparing Luol Deng to Scottie Pippen and then telling people to not be stupid?
Are you suggesting for one second that Boozer is a better player than Deng? Now who's being stupid?
Yes, Boozer can score the ball. But if any team should by now realize who's the better ball player, it's the Bulls.
And frankly, I have no doubt you could ask the two of them ... and eve ry other player on the Bulls team ... and you'd get the same answer. Deng is the better player.

Again, apples and oranges. Bopzer was a post player. Even with the Bulls, he was the one player who commanded a double team outside of Rose and Deng and Noah played off of him. Deng is not the rebounder Boozer is either, hence PF.

 

[houheffna]

You don't think MJ could not have elevated Deng? Come on. The triangle was the best thing that happened to the Bulls and Pippen. It forced everyone to get involved instead of watching MJ do it. That is when the Bulls took off. Pippen looked totally different once he left that triangle. It was like taking Montana out of the West Coast.

Wow...Deng was not as athletic as Pippen! No he couldn't have taught Deng how to dribble, and I don't know if he would have had the patience. The triangle didn't teach Pippen how to play basketball!

When Montana was taken out of the West Coast, he led a Chief team to the AFC Championship! That despite being an older player. You have a skewed view of sports history that is absolutely nuts. You really think Pippen and Montana were system players? Montana had a great team around him, Pippen played with the greatest ever...scary. You can't just put certain players in a system and think they will become world beaters, especially Deng. Doesn't make sense.

 

[houheffna]

Again, apples and oranges. Bopzer was a post player. Even with the Bulls, he was the one player who commanded a double team outside of Rose and Deng and Noah played off of him. Deng is not the rebounder Boozer is either, hence PF.

You seem to just look at stats and have an elementary view of players. I don't get it.

 

[cjswan232482]

I agree that Rose didn't handle having Lebron switch over to play him. He wasn't ready to deal with it ... and frankly, he still isn't. But that doesn't clear Deng from not being a "good enough no.2". In fact, it only goes to highlight just how little of an impact Deng was having out there.
If Lebron switches onto Rose, who's guarding Deng? Many times it was Chalmers ... sometimes the Heat went big and it was a guy like Haslem or Mike Miller instead. Chalmers and Mike Miller ... and Deng couldn't do a thing out there. That's NOT #2 star level play.

The Bulls had one #1 Star ... Rose ... who struggled to play up to his abilities. And after that, they had three #3 stars ... Deng, Noah, and Boozer. None of which were able to exploit their mismatch significantly enough to make a difference.[/QUOTE

MJ and Magic made Pippen and Worthy better. Who has Rose made better? The Bulls were a .500 team
am before Boozer joined the lineup. Look it up. How did Carlos Boozer becpme a 2 time All Star IN THE WEST w Deron Williams?

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

MJ and Magic made Pippen and Worthy better. Who has Rose made better? The Bulls were a .500 team before Boozer joined the lineup. Look it up.

Never mind Thibs coming to coach the team. Never mind the other players they brought in to come off the bench.

 

[Axl Rose]

MJ and Magic made Pippen and Worthy better. Who has Rose made better? The Bulls were a .500 team before Boozer joined the lineup. Look it up.

you think Boozer made us a 60 win team? lol

thats a insult to thibs

 

[cjswan232482]

Wow...Deng was not as athletic as Pippen! No he couldn't have taught Deng how to dribble, and I don't know if he would have had the patience. The triangle didn't teach Pippen how to play basketball!

When Montana was taken out of the West Coast, he led a Chief team to the AFC Championship! That despite being an older player. You have a skewed view of sports history that is absolutely nuts. You really think Pippen and Montana were system players? Montana had a great team around him, Pippen played with the greatest ever...scary. You can't just put certain players in a system and think they will become world beaters, especially Deng. Doesn't make sense.

Montana still played a West Coast offense in KC. If Montana ended up with the Bears he would not have been a Hall of Famer.

 

[Silverwulf]

Again, apples and oranges. Bopzer was a post player. Even with the Bulls, he was the one player who commanded a double team outside of Rose and Deng and Noah played off of him. Deng is not the rebounder Boozer is either, hence PF.

The only thing apples and oranges in this thread is your original question ... Deng is not Iguodala, and he's not David West ... who by the way is also a PF. But you're more than willing to compare Deng to him, but of course not Boozer.

And not surprisingly, you're not willing to answer the question.

Who is the better player, Deng or Boozer?

Here, let me refresh your memory ...

The problem wasn't that Deng wasn't a good enough no.2.

According to you ... and your absurd argument that Deng is clearly just another Pippen who wasn't given a chance ... it's Deng.
But the idea that Deng should be insulted by Boozer's contract more than one from say David West is just "stupid".
You're all over the map here buddy ... care to actually take a side and stick with it ... or are you just going to ramble on from ignorant post to ignorant post?

Because if according to you, Deng shouldn't be insulted by the amount Boozer made, then why should he be insulted by the amount West was given? It's apples and oranges right?

EDIT -- And btw ... since when has Boozer ever commanded a double team? No one double teams Boozer.

 

[Saluki]

You don't think MJ could not have elevated Deng? Come on. The triangle was the best thing that happened to the Bulls and Pippen. It forced everyone to get involved instead of watching MJ do it. That is when the Bulls took off. Pippen looked totally different once he left that triangle. It was like taking Montana out of the West Coast. Pippen looked lost playing in Houston and just a guy in Portland statwise.

Pippen looked like he was getting old which he was. He was 35 by the time he hit Portland. Let's see how Deng looks at 33-34-35. Even though he doesn't have NEAR the milage of Pippen at 28-29. Dengs only played 5 of his 9 seasons where he hit more than 70 games (not counting this season, we'll see if he stay healthy) . Pippen never appeared in less than 70 for his 1st 10.

 

[Saluki]

MJ and Magic made Pippen and Worthy better. Who has Rose made better? The Bulls were a .500 team
am before Boozer joined the lineup. Look it up. How did Carlos Boozer becpme a 2 time All Star IN THE WEST w Deron Williams?

The two seasons MJ didn't play were Pippens 2 best seasons. He stepped up and had career numbers across the board. What did Deng do last season with no Rose? 16 ppg and 42% shooting as "the guy"

 

[cjswan232482]

Boozer missed the first 20 games in 2011. The Bulls were around .500 when he entered the lineup. The Bulls went like 50-10 afterwards, Coincidence, not.

 

[Axl Rose]

Boozer missed the first 20 games in 2011. The Bulls were around .500 when he entered the lineup. The Bulls went like 50-10 afterwards, Coincidence, not.

new system, new players....takes time to gel

so Luol Deng is Pippen and Boozer is the real MVP lol...just stop