Why the three pointer is ruining basketball

[clonetrooper264]

Not gonna quote the post because it's too long (lol) but where my mind has settled on between that post and trying to distill internet sentiment (which, who can even really try to that meaningfully anyway) is that it is indeed really about 3s vs dunks, but actually more about a rise in animosity.

You mention rivalries of time past and I'm sure everyone here can name their favorite rivalry growing up and put forth equal complaint about how that doesn't exist today. Rivalries require a certain amount of animosity, dislike, even hatred if need be (warranted or not). Animosity towards another player, another team, another city, will give reason for another jab, another elbow, an extra push here, extra contact there.

Physicality is something that NBA fans, casual or hardcore, want more of in today's NBA. And to bring back another point I made at some point before, there are pockets of fans that equate defense to basically physical violence (pushing, shoving, tripping, grabbing, etc, basically wrestling and boxing as described above, but to the extreme). The physical element is particularly exciting for those people and one can argue they're not there to see anything related to basketball, they're wanting to see something as close to an MMA fight as possible. Bring it back to the normal fan now, they will say they want more defense, but what do they really mean by that? I'm actually willing to bet it's not schemes like the old Thibs ice the screen and force sideline, but actually they just want to see players make contact with each other without fouls.

And if all this is true, it is actually nothing to do with 3s at all, except that 3s don't allow for much physical contact. Fans want the inside game, so they can get that wrestling and boxing action in. If we're honest with ourselves, there is some degree of contact on the perimeter, but of course it's nothing compared to the interior...and you're not allowed to knock a player out the air at the 3pt line the same way you might be able to around the basket. If so, say the rules changed to allow defenders to undercut jump shooters...perhaps suddenly fan interest is reinvigorated. Of course, that's unsustainable as that will naturally lead to injuries, but perhaps in the back of everyone's mind...that is the level of physicality they desire. And what could motivate players today to even want to put forth that level of physicality? Animosity, a genuine dislike of the players on the other side.

 

[Crystallas]

Adam Silver said Tuesday night the league is studying the trend [of increased 3 point shooting]

.....He also said criticisms of offenses becoming "cookie cutter" in approach and that teams are copying each other is something he thinks the league should take seriously.

Smartest thing Silver has said in his whole tenure.

 

[clonetrooper264]

An interesting discussion by Sue Bird and Cam Johnson on this very topic. Valid points raised on both sides of the argument.

I find what Cam says about needing to shoot 3s to win games in the NBA probably the most telling of the reality of things. We see even right now with the Bulls, they shoot 3s at such a better clip than they did the last 2 years and shoot a much higher volume, and they're in so many more games and probably won a lot of games because of their shooting alone. Conversely, what was a great complaint about the team before? Lack of shooting. It's true as well in the pickup games, especially those played with 1s and 2s, obviously then 3s are then worth twice as many points, so if you can shoot them well enough why would you not?

Conversely, Sue's point about it being predictable holds weight as well

 

[clonetrooper264]

Seeing this topic come up again in posts about NFL vs NBA Christmas day viewership. NFL supposedly kicked NBA's butt, which doesn't surprise me in the slightest as America likes NFL more than NBA anyway (or so it seems from my perspective), but also NBA viewership this year was up over last year.

NBA viewership supposedly up 84% from last year, despite everyone hating the NBA: NBA delivers most-watched Christmas Day in 5 years | NBA.com. Though the NFL games were also record breaking in terms of viewership, perhaps because of the Beyonce halftime show: N.F.L. Christmas Games on Netflix Break Streaming Records, With Beyoncé’s Help

Some point out the reasonable aspect that NFL games are once a week while NBA is 3-4x a week so general anticipation is less for NBA, in addition to the broadcasting availability aspect, but also saw replies that NBA has too many games so no incentive to watch until playoffs because games are meaningless. I argue you can say that about any sport, idk why NBA regular season gets to be particularly meaningless.

Naturally people then complain about the NBA product itself. This little dialogue from reddit seems pretty representative of what I've seen elsewhere



Some ideas we can point out from that conversation:
1) People find 3s and layups boring (we've seen this same sentiment in this thread already)
2) Sentiment that players don't care
3) Desire to see superstars, particularly American born superstars at the forefront
4) Desire to see rivalries
5) The idea that there is currently too much parity

Personally, I don't see what is wrong with 3s and layups, but maybe I play too much basketball myself. Post ups and midrange shots are objectively inefficient and promotes slow offensive pace (case in point the Demar-centric Bulls, though they rarely posted up). But over and over again I see this sentiment desiring post ups, big men who only shoot 2ft from the basket, getting rid of corner 3s or 3s entirely, etc. As I ponder this, perhaps it makes me think that the common viewer thinks that 3s and layups NBA ball looks too much like your LA Fitness pickup game. People want to see the pros do stuff they can't, and to a degree, anyone can shoot jumpers. If we're real about the game of basketball in general though, the jumper is really what separates elite scorers from the great scorers. Like, KD isn't KD if he can't shoot as well as he does at his size in addition to his ball handling. At the same time we see hate for Giannis just driving into the paint over and over and exerting his physical dominance over slower or smaller defenders (low key Giannis has been pretty money from midrange this year also, but people still gonna complain).

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

3) Desire to see superstars, particularly American born superstars at the forefront

There's a lot to unpack in your post, but I want to speak to this specifically. USA Basketball has a development problem, a big one. I'd love to do a big rant on it being an AAU problem which is certainly an issue. Problems have stemmed into high school ball as well. I don't want to speak for all over, but the Chicagoland area has problems with the transfer portal as much as the NCAA. Homewood-Flossmoor, who won the 4A title last season, had at least 3 (I actually think it was 5, but I'm being nice here) starters that transferred in that year. Kenwood Academy just had to fire their coach over transferring and recruiting violations. If you're on a HS coaches AAU team, then they're going to find a way to get you into that school. (That extends to baseball and travel as well. For a long time if you weren't on the Orland Sparks you weren't playing at St. Rita. Who was the leader of the Orland Sparks? The St. Rita Varsity HC) Meanwhile, schools like Benet and Evergreen Park, who have fantastic coaches are able to compete with guys they can keep.

 

[clonetrooper264]

There's a lot to unpack in your post, but I want to speak to this specifically. USA Basketball has a development problem, a big one. I'd love to do a big rant on it being an AAU problem which is certainly an issue. Problems have stemmed into high school ball as well. I don't want to speak for all over, but the Chicagoland area has problems with the transfer portal as much as the NCAA. Homewood-Flossmoor, who won the 4A title last season, had at least 3 (I actually think it was 5, but I'm being nice here) starters that transferred in that year. Kenwood Academy just had to fire their coach over transferring and recruiting violations. If you're on a HS coaches AAU team, then they're going to find a way to get you into that school. (That extends to baseball and travel as well. For a long time if you weren't on the Orland Sparks you weren't playing at St. Rita. Who was the leader of the Orland Sparks? The St. Rita Varsity HC) Meanwhile, schools like Benet and Evergreen Park, who have fantastic coaches are able to compete with guys they can keep.

AAU could be its own thread for real...sooo many things could be said there

 

[clonetrooper264]

Tacking onto my previous post on the 3s, it is also a fair statement to say that in addition to looking much like glorified LA Fitness pickup ball, the high volume 3pt shooting leads to, naturally, many missed 3s. Missed 3s/jumpers in general is much less appealing to watch than a missed layup, presuming there was any degree of contest to said layup. Action at the rim is more likely to display attributes and actions that the viewer could not envision themselves doing or seeing at their local gym.

While one can argue a made contested 3 can hold just as much excitement as a poster dunk, the fact of the matter is that most NBA games will be about 55-60% missed shots, so if those misses are at the rim vs jumpers, there's still a higher excitement factor. A fair counter point though is that the game has still been mostly jumpers, just more midrange jumpers, for the majority of NBA history. Jerry West was such a dominant offensive force in his time in large part due to his proficiency with the pull up jumper. Yes you have your Wilts and Shaqs who won't attempt a shot outside of 10 feet, but by and large when people consider the greats of the NBA, you have more people who shot mostly jump shots than not. Even so, the variance with jumpers is still high, and some days you just go cold, and fans hate that.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Resurrecting this thread because I saw some random post by Barstool asking what sucks about the NBA and as expected the complaints boiled down to these:

1) They hate the volume of 3s taken because it looks like pickup basketball
2) They claim everyone travels all the time
3) They claim no defense is ever played, or more broadly that the players are "soft"
4) They claim everyone sits out too much

I figure Barstool has the type of following that is fairly representative of the average NBA follower and mirrors the random comments I'd see on an ESPN or NBA post elsewhere on social media. It has also echoed complaints we've seen already from posters here.

 

[Crystallas]

I have another one to add.

The NBA really shits on tradition. They keep trying to find something new, rapidly changing logos, teams, player mass movement. The NBA is worse than baseball for starting players and all-stars. Player and team loyalty is basically non-existent and that's really something that pisses off every fan that buys a player jersey from their team, then suddenly they're on another team and you really don't want to wear their jersey anymore. After-all, most NBA fans that ever buy a jersey, they only buy one because it's kind of silly to wear jerseys all the time, unless you're just a giant kid all your life.

Just looking at my own collection(mostly gifts, because I'm one of those people who nobody knows what to get, so they give me a bunch of Bulls stuff).
Jalen Rose, Andres Nocioni, Drew Gooden, John Salmons, Brad Miller, and a Keith Bogans game worn jersey that was given to me as a joke, but I actually cherrish it now! It is the gift that keeps on giving. I have others too, but it's just this burn that some fans feel. And what are you supposed to do, buy rookie jerseys? You can't tell who busts or not, nobody likes paying a premium for some first round pick that winds up getting 2 minutes off the bench 42 games a year. Instead you have this reminder that you blew money on a nice jersey but you backed the wrong horse.

Or you give them to girlfriends who know nothing, so they don't ruin your good jerseys. I see a lot of guys trolling women now, especially the ones that root for Caitlyn Clark, but don't even know what position she plays. I mean, someone needs to wear that Marco Belinelli jersey and yes, my wife wore it last week. Either way.... the league needs to promote a hell of a lot more loyalty and tradition, it kind of respects the fans and makes it harder for one generation to pass it onto the next.

 

[Enasic]

Worst kept secret: The NBA sucks and nobody cares anymore…was just talking to an old buddy of mine who I played basketball with all the time, and used to be a diehard bulls and NBa fan in general. Said he doesn’t remember the last time he watched a second of NBA basketball….i hear this all the time from people

 

[clonetrooper264]

I have another one to add.

The NBA really shits on tradition. They keep trying to find something new, rapidly changing logos, teams, player mass movement. The NBA is worse than baseball for starting players and all-stars. Player and team loyalty is basically non-existent and that's really something that pisses off every fan that buys a player jersey from their team, then suddenly they're on another team and you really don't want to wear their jersey anymore. After-all, most NBA fans that ever buy a jersey, they only buy one because it's kind of silly to wear jerseys all the time, unless you're just a giant kid all your life.

Just looking at my own collection(mostly gifts, because I'm one of those people who nobody knows what to get, so they give me a bunch of Bulls stuff).
Jalen Rose, Andres Nocioni, Drew Gooden, John Salmons, Brad Miller, and a Keith Bogans game worn jersey that was given to me as a joke, but I actually cherrish it now! It is the gift that keeps on giving. I have others too, but it's just this burn that some fans feel. And what are you supposed to do, buy rookie jerseys? You can't tell who busts or not, nobody likes paying a premium for some first round pick that winds up getting 2 minutes off the bench 42 games a year. Instead you have this reminder that you blew money on a nice jersey but you backed the wrong horse.

Or you give them to girlfriends who know nothing, so they don't ruin your good jerseys. I see a lot of guys trolling women now, especially the ones that root for Caitlyn Clark, but don't even know what position she plays. I mean, someone needs to wear that Marco Belinelli jersey and yes, my wife wore it last week. Either way.... the league needs to promote a hell of a lot more loyalty and tradition, it kind of respects the fans and makes it harder for one generation to pass it onto the next.

It's interesting you bring this up as it was also a topic on that Sue Bird and Cam Johnson podcast episode and what they were saying is that team loyalty in the NBA is kind of an "old fan" thing and the younger fans mostly follow specific players (I will insert my own thought that there are actually maybe 10ish total players that these fans follow and they likely all fall into that "superstar" category or close to it). The lack of team based loyalty may also be due to the lack of a true rivalry in the NBA.

I do find the player movement topic thing to be an interesting one though. As we know the teams themselves operate as a business and hold no loyalty to their players generally, much like anyone else's jobs. I feel like players today have gone the way of "fine, then I'm gonna make sure I get my money" since they know their team is ready to send them off in an instant. Naturally this attitude also pisses off fans because now players are "selfish and don't care about winning" but they're just doing what normal people do when it comes to jobs because despite what fans want to think about them, they are still humans. Of course at the individual level, most players do want to win, but they also want to extend their careers and get paid as much as they can, sometimes that doesn't or can't manifest itself as winning because of the situation they are in.

So it does ultimately circle back to what you said, the NBA does not lean into tradition at all...there is somewhat of a culture issue in the NBA currently. I don't necessarily blame the players for this, they are responding to the realities of their situation.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Steph Curry broke basketball.

It turns out the three point line did but it took an all-time great and the analytics era to make the strategy clear.

40% at 3 points per trip is too good to compete with by two's and free throws.

It's sad because it minimizes great shooters as well and makes their great skill mundane.

The easy fix is to make two's worth 3 and threes worth 4.
Then the analytics tell only good shooters or desperate teams in desperate situations, or open shooters again.

Nobody wants to see 3 free throws. Might introduce a "moneyball" on the second shot.

As annoying as it seems, the NBA numbers should be terrifying to executives, and the game is very stagnant and boring to watch.

 

[Crystallas]

Why does that look like something so much more fun to watch. That can't just be nostalgia... right? I like all eras, but this makes me sad in a way, because I don't know when this kind of basketball will either re-invent itself to be as fun, or return to ideas that were just pure lifestyle.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Why does that look like something so much more fun to watch. That can't just be nostalgia... right? I like all eras, but this makes me sad in a way, because I don't know when this kind of basketball will either re-invent itself to be as fun, or return to ideas that were just pure lifestyle.

I'll tell you what, the commercials today are definitely worse than this. However, I don't think there's much different in terms of "highlight gameplay" today compared to this video. Only difference I can think of is on those dunks there's probably less people around the basket due to the spacing being way less in the 90s compared to now. That also decreases the frequency of the "double pass" highlights as usually there's very few opportunities for a second pass to be made around the basket, again due to spacing. It does still happen once in a while.

This Jokic play is not unlike a few of the highlights in that 90s commercial compilation

Not saying what your overall point might be is inaccurate, but just judging off the video I'm not seeing a world of difference in the gameplay clips

 

[clonetrooper264]

A random thought...

If people really want to see less 3s and post up offense, why is Demar not a more popular player? Universally people say he slows everything down and is a hindrance to whatever offense he's on. Additionally, you can argue Jimmy Butler is much the same way.

People also clamor for more physicality in defense. Inevitably such physicality leads to fouls/free throws. People tend to hate watching free throws...is the answer just let players pummel each other to the ground? As I said in a previous post...jailhouse defense, all physicality, no fouls is what people seem to truly want to see. As it happens, the average free throws attempted per game in the NBA is the lowest it has ever been.

 

[knoxville7]

A random thought...

If people really want to see less 3s and post up offense, why is Demar not a more popular player? Universally people say he slows everything down and is a hindrance to whatever offense he's on. Additionally, you can argue Jimmy Butler is much the same way.

People also clamor for more physicality in defense. Inevitably such physicality leads to fouls/free throws. People tend to hate watching free throws...is the answer just let players pummel each other to the ground? As I said in a previous post...jailhouse defense, all physicality, no fouls is what people seem to truly want to see. As it happens, the average free throws attempted per game in the NBA is the lowest it has ever been.

i think you are confusing popularity with effectiveness under the current rules

personally, i love demars game and jimmys too. that being said, in 2025 they arent the type of player you build around due to the current rules.

we have all said how Demar would fit quite well into 1990's basketball. and that is an era that we all seem to miss and love, so id say he is plenty popular(not to mention his all star game appearances being fan votes)

 

[clonetrooper264]

i think you are confusing popularity with effectiveness under the current rules

personally, i love demars game and jimmys too. that being said, in 2025 they arent the type of player you build around due to the current rules.

we have all said how Demar would fit quite well into 1990's basketball. and that is an era that we all seem to miss and love, so id say he is plenty popular(not to mention his all star game appearances being fan votes)

I don't necessarily think it's the rules more so than the climate of the game being very 3pt heavy. Sure, the rules play into that a bit (ie it is hard not to foul a jump shooter these days), but there's isn't necessarily a particular rule you can point to and say "this is why the midrange game is dead", I argue that's all in the analytics.

While Demar did make all star teams with the Bulls, only one was as a starter (where the fan vote actually matters) and that was the first year of the "DeBallZach" era where the bulls were 1st in the East and Demar was the top scorer. To his credit, that year he did lead all backcourt voting in the East, but he was also an MVP candidate that year. In subsequent years his vote totals dropped dramatically. If he was truly so popular with the fans, usually that reflects in an unreasonable number of votes in spite of team/personal performance (example, Derrick Rose got more all star fan votes in 2022 than Darius Garland and Jaylen Brown). I suppose you can argue that was the case in 2023 as Demar made it as a reserve and finished 6th in backcourt votes with still over a million , but last year he couldn't even get half a million votes. He actually got less votes than DRose got 2 years ago in his last year with the Knicks. All that to say, perhaps he is popular here in Chicago (and in fairness Chicago does seem to love Demar because he got buckets and is a good dude), but in general audience it would seem his popularity was tied solely to the teams' success.

 

[knoxville7]

I don't necessarily think it's the rules more so than the climate of the game being very 3pt heavy. Sure, the rules play into that a bit (ie it is hard not to foul a jump shooter these days), but there's isn't necessarily a particular rule you can point to and say "this is why the midrange game is dead", I argue that's all in the analytics.

While Demar did make all star teams with the Bulls, only one was as a starter (where the fan vote actually matters) and that was the first year of the "DeBallZach" era where the bulls were 1st in the East and Demar was the top scorer. To his credit, that year he did lead all backcourt voting in the East, but he was also an MVP candidate that year. In subsequent years his vote totals dropped dramatically. If he was truly so popular with the fans, usually that reflects in an unreasonable number of votes in spite of team/personal performance (example, Derrick Rose got more all star fan votes in 2022 than Darius Garland and Jaylen Brown). I suppose you can argue that was the case in 2023 as Demar made it as a reserve and finished 6th in backcourt votes with still over a million , but last year he couldn't even get half a million votes. He actually got less votes than DRose got 2 years ago in his last year with the Knicks. All that to say, perhaps he is popular here in Chicago (and in fairness Chicago does seem to love Demar because he got buckets and is a good dude), but in general audience it would seem his popularity was tied solely to the teams' success.

So he was only like top 10 in guard voting? Yeah, totally not popular lol

 

[clonetrooper264]

So he was only like top 10 in guard voting? Yeah, totally not popular lol

Well obviously he's not going to have the same popularity as Dalen Terry, he's not a nobody. But at the same time if Demar's playstyle is the one the people want to watch, shouldn't he be at least top 5 in guard voting every year? That has only happened when his team was winning.

You want to make it seem like I'm saying Demar is an unpopular player, that is not what I'm saying. I am saying if people like midrange shots and midpost offense so much, Demar should be MORE popular. That doesn't mean that he is currently unpopular or that I'm saying he's unpopular.

 

[knoxville7]

Well obviously he's not going to have the same popularity as Dalen Terry, he's not a nobody. But at the same time if Demar's playstyle is the one the people want to watch, shouldn't he be at least top 5 in guard voting every year? That has only happened when his team was winning.

You want to make it seem like I'm saying Demar is an unpopular player, that is not what I'm saying. I am saying if people like midrange shots and midpost offense so much, Demar should be MORE popular. That doesn't mean that he is currently unpopular or that I'm saying he's unpopular.

and i am saying that im not sure how much more popular you expect him to be no matter how much his game is liked or not liked.

lebron for 20 years has been at the top of fan voting and he isnt a 3 point shooter either.

obviously steph curry has been as well and he is a 3 point shooter