World Series IGT: Chicago Cubs vs. Cleveland Indians Game 5

[SilenceS]

The lack of any critical thought on this or any thread on this forum is baffling. I sure hope that none of you work in the business field or even operate heavy machinery. Then again 'Slurpee Machine Technician' probably doesn't require a lot of critical thought.

This wasn't a matter of pinch hitting the wrong guy or ignoring a righty lefty matchup. This was the decision to pitch a closer - who pitches one inning - for almost three full innings. A guy who, when his pitch count gets up, gets wild. A guy who has never thrown 42 pitches in the MLB. A guy who has his longest outting in 4 seasons

That's not the easy baseball call. That was a very risky move. It paid off but you dopes acting like it was some baseball absolute and a no brainier is just ridiculous.

But that won't stop the regular band of dipshits from claiming their positions on the baseball knowledge throne

You do know you are stupid, right?

 

[DanTown]

Chapman is Maddon's best pitcher? Funny, I thought that was the staff ace who was actually already pitching in the game.

Chapman is a closer. A one inning fireball throwing mid season signing closer. He doesn't throw multiple innings. That's not what closers do.

His 42 pitches last night was the longest outing of his career. He made his earliest appearance in a game since 2012.

And we care about what he threw in the minors? Why not go all the way back to little league?

Even John Smoltz was talking about what a risky move it was. If it it backfired - either via him blowing the save or him having to be taken out for the bat and replaced with whom exactly (Strope? Rondon? Grimm or Wood who pitched the night before?) - people would be handing Maddon his ass.

But we shouldn't listen to John Smoltz or the other analysts we heard from post game. We should listen to smart forum guys.

“Chapman came in a did something he has never done before,” Cubs manager Joe Maddon said.

One, it's great that the only person who liked this is Omletpants. It's so perfect in that regard.

Two, the "closers on pitch one inning" garbage is bullshit. It's not backed up by data nor do you see a ton of people arguing for closers to pitch LESS.

Three, the Cubs had the lead, they only were taking Chapman out if HE blew out. You do realize that the odds Chapman gives up a run are less than the odds that say Strop or Rondon gives up a run?

Four, Chapman had pitched 2+ innings a few times this season (for the Yankees and the Cubs).

Five, the Cubs were in a "lose or stop playing" game; if you were EVER going to ask a pitcher to exert himself beyond his normal point to better the team, last night (and games 6/7) are it. You don't ask Madison Bumgarner to pitch five innings of relief or Clayton Kerhsaw in a save situation to win a game UNLESS losing the game means you lose the series. But I guess multiple WS champion Bruce Bochy is an idiot, Dave Roberts is an idiot, multiple world Series winner Joe Torre is an idiot for asking Rivera to pitch multiple innings to get saves, and multiple WS champion Terry Francona is an idiot for how much he asks guys like Andrew Miller to pitch.

 

[DanTown]

Spoiler alert: Jon Lester might pitch in relief tomorrow or Wednesday. Jake might go tomorrow. Lackey is probably ready to go. You'd NEVER do that unless it was the WOLRD SERIES and you were in a "win or lose the series" game like the Cubs will be in. The fact that anyone can be this obtuse to the situation amazes me. NO ONE can be that stupid, you HAVE to be trolling.

 

[Mr. Cub]

Will Fergie Jenkins be available?

 

[beckdawg]

He is not benching Baez.

I don't really see a defensible position for keeping him in the line up with the way he's struggled against breaking pitches against a guy who's best pitch is a curve ball. I'm not saying Baez shouldn't play but as mention, the cubs basically have to score before the indians get to Miller or Allen. Baez has not shown anything during this series. If the cubs were facing a team like he Giants who's bullpen was suspect I could see the argument for rolling with Baez's great defense and hoping they limit runs defensively with Baez and if they don't manage to score hope to get to their bullpen.

I mean look this series really plays no part of what Baez can be in the future but he's 3 for 21 with 9 k's this series. He has the most AB's on the team this series and the team hasn't been scoring runs. Baez isn't the only issue. Russell is 4-19 with 5 K's. Contreras is 1 for 11 with 3 K's. Fowler is 4-20 with 6 K's. And Bryant is 2-17 with 7 K's. But the point is you can't just keep sending all of them out there if they aren't hitting. At some point you have to try something else. Almora, Coghlan and Soler have seen 1, 3, and 5 AB's. Heyward has only seen 11 and is 3-11 with 4 K's.

As mentioned, I'd give someone else a shot at 1-2 AB's early in game 6 and then bring Baez in defensively hopefully with a lead because while it's great his defense can limit runs, if you get to the Miller/Allen innings and haven't scored/have a lead it really doesn't matter. You're then essentially playing for an 11+ inning game with the way those two have pitched in order to score.

 

[SilenceS]

I don't really see a defensible position for keeping him in the line up with the way he's struggled against breaking pitches against a guy who's best pitch is a curve ball. I'm not saying Baez shouldn't play but as mention, the cubs basically have to score before the indians get to Miller or Allen. Baez has not shown anything during this series. If the cubs were facing a team like he Giants who's bullpen was suspect I could see the argument for rolling with Baez's great defense and hoping they limit runs defensively with Baez and if they don't manage to score hope to get to their bullpen.

I mean look this series really plays no part of what Baez can be in the future but he's 3 for 21 with 9 k's this series. He has the most AB's on the team this series and the team hasn't been scoring runs. Baez isn't the only issue. Russell is 4-19 with 5 K's. Contreras is 1 for 11 with 3 K's. Fowler is 4-20 with 6 K's. And Bryant is 2-17 with 7 K's. But the point is you can't just keep sending all of them out there if they aren't hitting. At some point you have to try something else. Almora, Coghlan and Soler have seen 1, 3, and 5 AB's. Heyward has only seen 11 and is 3-11 with 4 K's.

As mentioned, I'd give someone else a shot at 1-2 AB's early in game 6 and then bring Baez in defensively hopefully with a lead because while it's great his defense can limit runs, if you get to the Miller/Allen innings and haven't scored/have a lead it really doesn't matter. You're then essentially playing for an 11+ inning game with the way those two have pitched in order to score.

The Indians run. Jake is worst then Lester at keeping runners close. Joe has played defense all year. The team as a whole cant hit a curveball and Russell has been the worst all year at hitting a breaking ball. He isnt benching Baez because of a small sample in the WS when he has been one of your top hitters this post season and has came through in big moments. This is one of those you are stretching for something thats not really there. The Cubs do need runs, but they also have to prevent runs and with Cleveland pitching all playoffs. Keeping them from scoring is your highest priority. Soler and Cogs have shown nothing this playoffs. Soler has had one solid hit and a random triple that wasnt hard contact. What you are suggesting is throwing shit at a wall and hoping it sticks.

 

[Parade_Rain]

I don't really see a defensible position for keeping him in the line up with the way he's struggled against breaking pitches against a guy who's best pitch is a curve ball.

I do. If someone else is playing 2B last night, Lindor is safe. DRS is especially important in 1 run games.

 

[beckdawg]

The Indians run. Jake is worst then Lester at keeping runners close. Joe has played defense all year. The team as a whole cant hit a curveball and Russell has been the worst all year at hitting a breaking ball. He isnt benching Baez because of a small sample in the WS when he has been one of your top hitters this post season and has came through in big moments. This is one of those you are stretching for something thats not really there. The Cubs do need runs, but they also have to prevent runs and with Cleveland pitching all playoffs. Keeping them from scoring is your highest priority. Soler and Cogs have shown nothing this playoffs. Soler has had one solid hit and a random triple that wasnt hard contact. What you are suggesting is throwing shit at a wall and hoping it sticks.

This isn't a small sample size thing. The numbers on curve balls were taken from the regular season. Baez doesn't hit them well. If you want to argue Baez at SS and bench Russell I think that's worth discussing but you're not convincing me that stopping the running game is more important than finding someone who can hit. Runs win games. The cubs have been shut out 4 times in the past 11 games. It didn't matter what the runners for LA/CLE did in those 4 games because if you don't score runs you don't win.

It'd be one thing if Baez was up there having good at bats but he's not. Case in point this excerpt from a fangraphs article

You don’t need me to tell you about what this approach has done to Javier Baez, but the numbers are still staggering. He’s swung at nine of the 15 curveballs he’s been thrown in this series, and whiffed on seven of those nine swings. 12 of his 21 at-bats in the series have ended with a breaking ball, with six of them ending with him chasing a pitch out of the zone for strike three. Even when he has managed to make contact with a breaking ball, it’s been a weak groundball or an infield fly. The heavy bendy-pitch approach has turned the star of the NLCS into an automatic out.

It's not "throwing shit at the wall." It's looking at what the other team is using against you and adjusting. That excerpt is from this article. Quite clearly the indians have noticed the cubs struggle to hit curves. Baez isn't the only problem. But the fact remains if a team is beating you by throwing curve balls then you should be putting your best line up at hitting curves. It's no different than playing RH/LH lineups in favorable match ups.

And for what it's worth, playing Zobrist at 2B isn't like playing Schwarber there. Zobrist isn't Baez obviously but he's still an above average defender. Joe played Zobrist there for he vast majority of the season and we weren't really complaining.

 

[beckdawg]

I do. If someone else is playing 2B last night, Lindor is safe. DRS is especially important in 1 run games.

That's not really a fair argument. You're assuming that whoever replaced Baez in the line up would also go 1-4 with 3 K's with the one hit being a bunt single. Baez was 1-2 with RISP and obviously that bunt didn't score anyone. It's entirely possible someone else plates multiple runs. And like I said, I'm not saying defense isn't important. But Zobrist isn't a bad defender and as I mentioned you can bring in Baez after a couple AB if you have a lead but you have to get a lead or else DRS doesn't matter. Losing by 1 run is no different than losing by 5.

 

[SilenceS]

This isn't a small sample size thing. The numbers on curve balls were taken from the regular season. Baez doesn't hit them well. If you want to argue Baez at SS and bench Russell I think that's worth discussing but you're not convincing me that stopping the running game is more important than finding someone who can hit. Runs win games. The cubs have been shut out 4 times in the past 11 games. It didn't matter what the runners for LA/CLE did in those 4 games because if you don't score runs you don't win.

It'd be one thing if Baez was up there having good at bats but he's not. Case in point this excerpt from a fangraphs article



It's not "throwing shit at the wall." It's looking at what the other team is using against you and adjusting. That excerpt is from this article. Quite clearly the indians have noticed the cubs struggle to hit curves. Baez isn't the only problem. But the fact remains if a team is beating you by throwing curve balls then you should be putting your best line up at hitting curves. It's no different than playing RH/LH lineups in favorable match ups.

And for what it's worth, playing Zobrist at 2B isn't like playing Schwarber there. Zobrist isn't Baez obviously but he's still an above average defender. Joe played Zobrist there for he vast majority of the season and we weren't really complaining.

No, its throwing shit at the wall. You are calling for two players to play that have done nothing and nothing the majority of the season and hoping Heyward will continue to hit when he hasnt all year while weakening the defense. Baez is a streaky hitter. It takes one at bat for him to zone in again. Same with Russell. They are confidence players because of their age. Also, Zobrist isnt a plus defender at second anymore. His range is limited and he can not tag or turn double plays near as good as Baez. You are looking to sacrifice six innnings of defense hoping the 2 at bats Baez would have, would be had, by someone else and hope they come through when Baez wouldnt. Its just one big conjecture. This is win or go home. This isnt lets try something then if it doesnt work, oh well.

 

[SilenceS]

That's not really a fair argument. You're assuming that whoever replaced Baez in the line up would also go 1-4 with 3 K's with the one hit being a bunt single. Baez was 1-2 with RISP and obviously that bunt didn't score anyone. It's entirely possible someone else plates multiple runs. And like I said, I'm not saying defense isn't important. But Zobrist isn't a bad defender and as I mentioned you can bring in Baez after a couple AB if you have a lead but you have to get a lead or else DRS doesn't matter. Losing by 1 run is no different than losing by 5.

You are talking all in conjecture. You have no idea if that person gets a hit. Maybe that person goes 0 fer 2. Baez bunt single was actually pretty huge because it loaded the bases for a sac fly which turned out to be the winning run. Pretty crucial if you ask me.

 

[Parade_Rain]

That's not really a fair argument. You're assuming that whoever replaced Baez in the line up would also go 1-4 with 3 K's with the one hit being a bunt single. Baez was 1-2 with RISP and obviously that bunt didn't score anyone. It's entirely possible someone else plates multiple runs. And like I said, I'm not saying defense isn't important. But Zobrist isn't a bad defender and as I mentioned you can bring in Baez after a couple AB if you have a lead but you have to get a lead or else DRS doesn't matter. Losing by 1 run is no different than losing by 5.

Lol.

 

[beckdawg]

No, its throwing shit at the wall. You are calling for two players to play that have done nothing and nothing the majority of the season and hoping Heyward will continue to hit when he hasnt all year while weakening the defense. Baez is a streaky hitter. It takes one at bat for him to zone in again. Same with Russell. They are confidence players because of their age. Also, Zobrist isnt a plus defender at second anymore. His range is limited and he can not tag or turn double plays near as good as Baez. You are looking to sacrifice six innnings of defense hoping the 2 at bats Baez would have, would be had, by someone else and hope they come through when Baez wouldnt. Its just one big conjecture. This is win or go home. This isnt lets try something then if it doesnt work, oh well.

Soler hit .238/.333/.436 during the season. Cogs hit .252/.391/.388 with the cubs. I'd hardly call that "nothing." If you don't want Heyward out there fine. I said I'd be fine with them going to Soler/Cogs in RF/LF. If it's conjecture to play those players then how is it not conjecture to assume a streaky player will suddenly hit? Baez is 2 for 11 with RISP this series with the 2 being a bunt single and a single to shallow left. Neither plated a runner.

The cubs defense isn't what's in question this series. It's been their ability to score runs and as mentioned that becomes paramount when you're facing two relievers who've been near unhitable after the starter gets pulled. If you disagree fine but Baez isn't putting in good at bats right now and the fact of the matter is scoring runs before those two relievers come into the game is a huge deal. i'm not in favor of waiting on a streaky player to figure it out. I want hitters who put in good at bats.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

I do. If someone else is playing 2B last night, Lindor is safe. DRS is especially important in 1 run games.

I'd go so far as to say that if Baez isn't at 2B in this series it would be lost already.

 

[SilenceS]

I'd go so far as to say that if Baez isn't at 2B in this series it would be lost already.

Take him out and sit him on the bench.

 

[SilenceS]

Soler hit .238/.333/.436 during the season. Cogs hit .252/.391/.388 with the cubs. I'd hardly call that "nothing." If you don't want Heyward out there fine. I said I'd be fine with them going to Soler/Cogs in RF/LF. If it's conjecture to play those players then how is it not conjecture to assume a streaky player will suddenly hit? Baez is 2 for 11 with RISP this series with the 2 being a bunt single and a single to shallow left. Neither plated a runner.

The cubs defense isn't what's in question this series. It's been their ability to score runs and as mentioned that becomes paramount when you're facing two relievers who've been near unhitable after the starter gets pulled. If you disagree fine but Baez isn't putting in good at bats right now and the fact of the matter is scoring runs before those two relievers come into the game is a huge deal. i'm not in favor of waiting on a streaky player to figure it out. I want hitters who put in good at bats.

ITs not conjecture because I have seen the outcomes of the games and what he has done. Cogs and Soler have what a combined 2 hits all post season? Baez has 7 RBI's this post season. Its shit and a wall.

 

[DanTown]

T He isnt benching Baez because of a small sample in the WS when he has been one of your top hitters this post season and has came through in big moments. This is one of those you are stretching for something thats not really there.

You're going to quote "small sample size" about a series being too small but 40 PA in 8 games being big enough for you? Baez is this postseason who he was before it: a player who is prone to massive swings in production depending on his contact rate and his ability to stay within the strike zone. Much like Soler didn't all of the sudden become an all-star after one series last year, Baez didn't just solve all his issues because he had a good six games against the Giants/Dodgers.

 

[SilenceS]

You're going to quote "small sample size" about a series being too small but 40 PA in 8 games being big enough for you? Baez is this postseason who he was before it: a player who is prone to massive swings in production depending on his contact rate and his ability to stay within the strike zone. Much like Soler didn't all of the sudden become an all-star after one series last year, Baez didn't just solve all his issues because he had a good six games against the Giants/Dodgers.

What? So, he hasnt been one of the Cubs best hitters this post season and defensive players? Yes, we know Baez is streaky but he also won 2 games this post season. So, thanks for the reply because you didnt accomplish much.

Also, Baez hit .279 or better in every month except 2 months when he was about the same as the two guys being said to play. So, the massive swing in production isnt accurate.

 

[DanTown]

You are talking all in conjecture. You have no idea if that person gets a hit. Maybe that person goes 0 fer 2. Baez bunt single was actually pretty huge because it loaded the bases for a sac fly which turned out to be the winning run. Pretty crucial if you ask me.

I think Baez is something like 2 for 17 with runners on base in the WS and has left at least six runners at second or third base in five different PA. He LITERALLY struck out with the game tying run at third base and the winning run at second base in a game so it's weird to say "Baez may or may not have a negative impact with his bat". It's clear that he has.

 

[SilenceS]

I think Baez is something like 2 for 17 with runners on base in the WS and has left at least six runners at second or third base in five different PA. He LITERALLY struck out with the game tying run at third base and the winning run at second base in a game so it's weird to say "Baez may or may not have a negative impact with his bat". It's clear that he has.

I know. He is the reason the Cubs have been shut out 4 times. He got out 27 times a game.