World War II

Sunbiz1

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Didn't that happen because Germany made a mistake in which they missed a bombing target and hit or school or something, so the British retaliated by boming something in Germany, in which the Germans then escalated from there?

The RAF successfully bombed Berlin during the Battle of Britain. This infuriated Hitler who then retaliated on London, as opposed to finishing off the RAF.

Many of his decisions were based on emotions, Dunkirk was a prime example. Rather than finishing off 300,000 allied troops, he allowed them evacuate. The reasoning was pride, he wanted to show the world(and his generals)who was in charge.
 

Scoot26

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The RAF successfully bombed Berlin during the Battle of Britain. This infuriated Hitler who then retaliated on London, as opposed to finishing off the RAF.

Many of his decisions were based on emotions, Dunkirk was a prime example. Rather than finishing off 300,000 allied troops, he allowed them evacuate. The reasoning was pride, he wanted to show the world(and his generals)who was in charge.
That could also have to do with the fact he saw many of the British and French as part of the Aryan race. He also still hoped the British would surrender at that point in time after a beating from Germany, like the French eventually did.
 

Omeletpants

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One of the biggest issues was the bad blood between Hitler and his army/Generals. This dated back to when Hitler was trying to wrest control of Germany before the war. If he had managed the war from a 40,000 ft level and let the Generals execute without interference, no one could have defeated them. The German army was better trained, led and had better weapons. Hitler's strategic and tactical errors lead to their defeat
 

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Do you think Hitler was borderline?

We should have a therapy seance with Marshal.
 

Sunbiz1

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Do you think Hitler was borderline?

We should have a therapy seance with Marshal.

He distrusted all of his generals, 16:00 mark of this vid explains why:
[video=youtube;wbKYbLUkIpk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbKYbLUkIpk&list=PL8hNHC9nbLlwpq5bbCkcODDmAXXFfuSKZ[/video]

He was also on drugs, lots of them.
 

remydat

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It was Hitler who directed the Luftwaffe to shift bombing targets from British airfields to London. Huge strategical mistake, and certainly not indicative of any mercy.

It was Hitler who divided the German army in Russia, to the protest of every general.

It was Hitler who constantly sacked commanding officers, for losing unwinnable battles.

He was a very poor strategist, and the main reason Germany lost.

I was referring to Omelets post which was referring to his decision to try and occupy Russia and his love of Britain. My point was that was not because of poor strategy. That was because he fundamentally hated Slavic people and considered the Brits to be of Aryan stock.

That was not a broad statement about his overall strategic genius or lack thereof. As you said in a later post, he was ruled by emotion so I don't those those decisions were due to him not knowing what the best strategic option was but him simply ignoring the best strategic option because of emotion.
 

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Interesting conversations.

If the US had stayed out of WW2 and didn't get involved in Lend Lease prior to Pearl Harbor the war in Europe would have turned out much differently.

Britain would have probably had to sue for peace. Even though Hitler and Goering let the British Expeditionary Force off the hook by letting them escape at Dunkerque the Brits were barely able to get the men home and most of the equipment had to be abandoned on the beaches. Hitler's time to strike Britain would have been right there but he hadn't taken the rest of France yet so he had to wait until France sued for peace before he could turn the war against Britain.

The Brits would have survived the Battle of Britain. The US involvement in the war, at that point was still somewhat minor and Germany hadn't fully exploited the edge that they gained by defeating France. The real issue would have been later in 1940 and into 1941 when the full assistance of the US started to help the British Empire. Once the French ports on the Atlantic became available to the Kriegsmarine the submarine war could swing into full effect. The losses in shipping in 1940 and 1941 outstripped the ability of British shipyards and the country was very close to losing the war even before US intervention.

The assistance given prior to US entry was more than just material. In addition to the transfer of material 'on credit' which helped keep England from starving the US transferred 50 US Clemson Class destroyers to the Royal Navy which were used to supplement their overstretched Antisubmarine Warfare assets. While these old WW1 vintage destroyers were of marginal help they did increase the capability of the Royal Navy and made it easier for them to transfer better ASW ships to the Atlantic. Even more importantly the US agreed to escort merchant shipping as far as Iceland in 1941. This allowed the British to concentrate their escorts and to successfully engage more enemy submarines.

If these two things hadn't happened the British would have continued to lose shipping into 1942. Without the US support the Brits and Canadians would have had the extra strain of escorting convoys completely across the Atlantic, with less ships to do it. Without the credit given to the British it probably wouldn't have been able to maintain the war effort as well as feeding their own population. The terms that Germany presented England in 1940 were pretty lenient, Britain could keep its empire, would have been fairly autonomous and independent. Britain probably would have not had a choice but to accept terms, especially since reinforcement of it's empire would have become increasingly difficult. By mid 1941 the Brits would have been out of the war.

It might have altered other events as well. Hitler wanted to invade Russia in May of 1941, not on June 22nd like it actually occured. Operation Barbarrossa was delayed because Hitler had to secure his lower flanks. Yugoslavia probably would have been unavoidable since a coup overthrew the pro German government and instilled a hostile one but Greece might have been avoided. Italy attacked Greece in March of 1941 and thought they could roll over the Greeks but found that Greece fought back. Even worse the British got involved and started posting troops and RAF forces to the south of Germany. So troops that were initially planned for the attack on Russia ended up being diverted to help capture Greece in April of 1941 and weren't available in May when the attack was planned. Some units were still not combat ready in June of 1941 and didn't participate in the early attacks. Without Britain in the war it is likely that Germany would have told Italy to stuff it and let them flail against the Greeks. Hitler had no real interest in the Eastern Med and was pretty ticked off at having to come to Mussolini's aid.

All told, I still don't think that this would have effected how Operation Barbarrossa turned out. Maybe if the Germans could have attacked in late May they could have reached Moscow earlier but I don't think that they would have been able to hold it. Like others have said, by November the German Army was close to exhaustion, overstretched and substantially weakened by the race across Russia. Hitler's meddling also caused delays that allowed the Soviet's the opportunity to divert troops from Eastern Asia to Moscow. So the attack probably would have ground to a halt no matter what.

What the US staying out of the war would have done was effect the events of 1942. Even if the US entered the war at Pearl Harbor it would have had a difficult time getting supplies to the Soviet Union. It is likely at this point that the Germans would have shifted much of their submarine forces to areas that would allow easy interdiction of US convoys that tried sailing for Murmansk. Without British assistance much of what the US sent would end up sunk. It is likely that bases in Iceland and in Norway would have been built to allow for shorter range Type VII U-boats to operate closer to the US shore. Most of the subs otherwise would have been the longer range Type IXs of which there were few in 1941. The US antisubarine doctrine at the beginning of the war was atrocious. The only reason every single merchantman wasn't sunk in early 1942 was because the Germans didn't have enough Type IX subs to cover the coasts. Without British help the US probably would have been run out of the Atlantic by Kriegsmarine sub forces. In addition the US wouldn't have had the advantage of knowing German Enigma messages and would have been flying blind in the Atlantic.

It is true that the Soviets managed to move much of their manufacturing capabilities beyond the Urals. However most of these factories were still not up to full production in the spring of 1942 and those that were ready were devoted to manufacturing war materials. Tanks and guns are great, although the Soviets were still very short on those items in 1942 how Lend Lease really helped the Soviets was the ability to concentrate on war materiel and less on logistical support. The trucks sent to the Soviets helped win the war as much as the T-34s they produced. Without them the Soviets wouldn't have been able to transport troops and supplies in the amounts needed.

So 1942 would have been more difficult for the Soviets. The Germans, freed up from having to use forces in North Africa and in Western Europe would have been able to move forces during the winter to the Eastern Front. These troops would have hit the even weaker Soviet forces and probably would have driven the Russians from Stalingrad and Leningrad and possibly from Moscow. At a minimum by the end of 1942 the Soviets would have been much weaker than they were at the end of 1941. This was ultimately Hitler's goal. He didn't want to capture all of Russia, just the parts of Russia west of the Urals. Those areas would be de russified and eventually turned into Germanic lands. The Soviet Union east of the Urals would have been pretty weak since it lacked the oil reserves of the Caucases or the grain and food capabilities of the Ukraine or Western Russia.

Eventually the war in the East would have been more deadlocked at the Urals where the Soviets would continue fighting but in a much weakened state while the Germans consolidated their gains and exploited the Russian, Ukrainian and Polish lands for their own purposes.

What would have been interesting is how this would have effected the Pacific War. If Britain was defeated by Germany prior to the Pearl Harbor attack it could have changed the entire Japanese attack plans.

I'll explain this is the next post.
 

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If Britain had surrendered or came to an agreement with the Germans in the Spring of 1941 I am not sure the Japanese would have even started a conflict with the United States.

The biggest reason the Japanese Empire attacked the US was because it thought America was the biggest threat to their ability to secure raw materials to maintain their country. The US had placed an embargo on imports of oil, iron and steel to Japan after the invasion of China in 1937 and by 1941 the Japanese were desperate. The attack on the US Pacific Fleet and the invasion of the Phillippines were done to secure shipping routes from their real targets, the resource rich East Indies.

Just like the demands made on Vichy forces in French Indochina I am sure that the Imperial Japanese Government would have put serious pressure on the British Government to allow them access to Singapore and much of Malaysia. In its weakened state it is likely that, just like Vichy France, Britain would have been forced to allow Japanese 'administration' of much of the Malay Peninsula including Singapore. In addition there would have been a demand to cut off supplies going from India to China as early as possible. Japan wasn't particularly interested in India or even Burma and only invaded Burma to prevent supplies from getting to China. With Britain out of the war it is possible that Japan could have gained British possessions without firing a shot.

It probably could have taken the Dutch East Indies as well. The biggest reason the Dutch remained in the Allied camp prior to the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor was because Britain had hosted the Dutch Government in Exile. Without Britain the Dutch would have either had to flee to Canada or to the US. Either way the Dutch would have had a much harder time maintaining the agreement for the defense of the Dutch East Indies. The ABDA forces (Allied British, Dutch, American) would not exist. It is possible that the Dutch would have simply abandoned the East Indies or would have been forced to come to an agreement with the Japanese. I personally doubt the US would have been able to declare war on Japan if it did attack the East Indies, support wouldn't have been there.

So he Japanese would have gotten much of what they wanted without involving themselves in a conflict with a substantially larger and more industrial foe. As isolationist as the US was in 1941 I highly doubt that anything beyond a direct attack on the US would have brought us into the conflict. It is likely that the US would have stood by as China and the Far East fell to Japan. At that point it would have been much more difficult to stop the Japanese. The US probably would have reinforced the Phillippines, it was in the process of doing that prior to the start of hostilities but most likely there would have been a cold war between the US and Japan.
 

JesusHalasChrist

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I'd like too read some books on the battles in the pacific

there were some epic battles between the US and Japan it feels like the war with the Japanese gets overshadowed but it was an epic conflict all in its own

any good recommendations?

Silent Victory. Its covers the US submarine campaign in the pacific and not the major battles but it's a good read.
 

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Without US aid as well as the US fighting the Germans outside the European theater such as in North Africa, I think the Russians still ultimately end up defeating them but with even more devastation and loss of life than what they already endured. There is no doubt that having to fight a two front war was incredibly detrimental to the German war effort and it certainly sped up their defeat but without it the Germans still faced one major obstacle which is Russia as a country was so much larger than it population wise. France and Britain are similar sizes to Germany with similar populations and army sizes. So in a battle if France lost more mean than Germany then it was devastating.

Russia on the other hand was so massive a country that the Russians were able to move their factories and war production to the east far away from the Western Front and they had the people and resources to simply outproduce the Germans. To be sure what they were producing was of lower quality as were their soldiers in many respects but when you have the ability to produce say 10 tanks for every 1 German take or lose 10 men for every 1 German, eventually no matter how effective and efficient the Germans are, they are going to run out of resources and people.

There was on other thing that made this more likely as well. The Germans while enemies of the French and British treated them as humans. They considered them of similar stock to them hence why they occupied France. By contrast, Hitler considered Slavic people subhuman. So the Russians weren't merely fighting for their freedom like the French or British. They were fighting for their very existence because if they lost, their future wasn't simply an occupied Russia like an occupied France. Their future was gas chambers. This is an important point because there was no real avenue of surrender for the Russians which meant they would fight until the bitter end. So the Germans would literally have to conquer just about every part of Russia rather than simply defeat them in a few battles and then have them sue for peace like the French.

This is born out by the fact that the Germans actually wiped out much of the Red Army by 1941 ie the original 5 million man Red Army was almost entirely defeated. For a nation like France or Britain they would most likely have sued for peace similar to what Germany had to do at the end of WWI because doing so didn't mean extinction for them. Instead, Russia conscripted 8 million more men and continued the fight and there was another 8 million more behind that and so on and so forth. This was not a conventional war for Russia. This was only two outcomes. Victory or annihilation so every member of their population would have been thrust into the fight if needed.

The final factor IMO is the harsh Russian winter of 41/42. Assuming Hitler still attacks at the time he did, it doesn't matter how many people he threw at the Russians, the battle would still be halted by the harsh winter. I suppose you could argue he may have broken throw before the onset of winter but even if he had, he still would have to wait before proceeding deeper into the country which still would have given the Russian time to relocate their factories to the east. As I said in the other thread, the Germans essentially made it to like Phoenix or Las Vegas while the Russians had moved their factories to New York. That is a long way to go still against an enemy that has something like 10-15 times more people than you once you include the civilians/conscripts who were fighting for their lives.

I would say the best chance for Germany victory if we exclude US involvement would have been to finish the war with Britain first so that they could focus solely on the Western front and to attack Russia only after getting a firm commitment from Japan to attack from the East. The number 1 priority of the attack should have been to destroy the Trans-Siberian railroad as that is ultimately what won the war for the Russians was their logistical ability to move resources across such a massive country. Without it, their ability to wage war would have been crippled. With it, they always had the logistical advantage over the Germans and the Japanese because they had a well connected massive supply line all on land while Germany had to move supplies through various occupied countries and Japan via sea.

Yes and no.


It is true the Soviets moved most of their heavy factories east of the Urals and were able to restart production but most of the factories weren't able to come completely online until 1943. Part of the reason that Germany had such success in the summer of 1942 was because the Soviets simply didn't have the material available to effectively combat the Wehrmacht. Germany had complete air supremacy for most of 1942 and only began to see it slip at the end of the year. Even into 1943 the situation was close to a stalemate and only broke after the factories both came on line and the material supplied to the Soviets began to arrive in force.

The biggest assistance the US gave the Soviets was not in tanks or planes, although the Russians did welcome them (especially early in the conflict). The biggest assistance was the supply and logistical support that made the Red Army the force that it became. Thousands of US6 Studebaker trucks, among other models, were pretty much given to the Russians. The entire Red Army was supported by these vehicles and it is unlikely that the Soviet Army would have been able to maintain itself in the field. All of these trucks allowed Soviet industry the ability to concentrate on war production and avoid logistical support. There wasn't a need for truck factories because the trucks were being furnished by the US.

In addition much of the food producing regions of the Soviet Union were under German control until the end of 1943. Without US food shipments much of the population would have suffered and the Red Army would also have had to deal with food shortages. Even after much of the Ukraine and Western Russia were liberated the damage caused by the retreating Germans resulted in much of the land being unusable for months.

Personally, without Lend Lease the war would have dragged on another year at least, maybe two and it probably would have ended in stalemate. I suspect that in the end the Soviet Union would have survived the conflict but much of the western areas, including the Ukraine and the Baltic areas would have been taken by Germany. While the Soviets had a big supply of troops it wasn't endless. Estimates of Soviet losses in just KIAs during WW2 are estimated at between 7 and 9 millions. Injuries and prisoners add even more. Close to 4.5 million Soviets were captures. Wounded and missing was around 20 million. By the end of the war the Soviets were starting to have manpower issues but not at the level of the Germans.

Without the logistical help of the West the Soviets would have been much slower in the attack and would have taken much longer getting supplies and men into position. This would have allowed the Germans increased time to improve defenses and would have allowed much more freedom of movement for Wehrmacht forces.

This is my final opinion of the entire thing.

If the US didn't enter the war: The Soviet Union and England would have lost

If England didn't enter (or stay in) the war, the US and Soviet Union would have either lost or would have had to eventually make peace.

If the Soviets didn't enter the war, England and the US would have had to sue for peace.


I always hated the arguments over 'which was the most important Ally' because none of the participants would have been able to win if the others weren't involved. If the Soviets were fighting the Germans the mass of Nazi forces would have faced the US and British. There is little doubt that Hitler could have made France impregnable if he had at least half the troops he was forced to position in Russia. Without the US and Britain the Soviets would have starved or would have had to divert their own resources to supply and logistics and this would have made their chances of successfully driving the Germans all the way back to Germany less likely. The Brits and Russians would have starved if the US didn't get involved.
 

The Bandit

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Hitlers top **** ups:

1. Dunkirk, letting 300,000 troops retreat because you want to swing your dick and show you have power.
2. Invading Russia far to early and then proceeding to wage a two front war where the west side was not secured and the east had far more people than you did, and deciding to also make it a goddamn battle at Stalingrad that wound up costing the German Army a shit ton of men and resources. If he bypassed Stalingrad and simply took the oil fields in the east, his panzer divisions could steam roll the rest of the country. Instead of surrounding the city and continuing with the rest, he got into a man for man, inch for inch battle with people who were far greater in number and wanted the shitty city far more. Stalin would not allow that city to fall. Hitler would not allow a retreat from the city.
3. Sending a message to Mexico to invade the U.S., then declaring war on the U.S. when we were only going to go to war against the Japanese for Pearl Harbor due to the oil embargo, if we only go against the Japanese, Western front doesn't come back with a vengeance.
4. Being a complete strategic fucktard who was geared by emotion and ignored his generals who would've won the war for him had he allowed them too.
5. Italy as an ally.
6. Killing generals for impossible battles that they could not win.
7. Complete botch on the D-Day landings.
8. Did I mention Russia?
9. Pouring all his last resources into long range missiles instead of focusing on the impending invasion and defense.
10. Bombing London instead of finishing off the RAF.
 

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