2015 Baseball Hall of Fame elections

Parade_Rain

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Neyer is always trying to take a contrary stance on everything. And he absolutely misses the point by a country mile. Rose is not out due to an integrity clause.

To hear people talk when it comes to cheaters, they'd be perfectly happy letting a guy keep their money that he won in a poker game even when they catch him with aces up his sleeves.

"Well, heck. I had sleeves, too, so I should have put aces in my sleeves if I wanted to win. Good for him. I vote for him to the poker HOF."

LMAO about the poker game. No one let Rose off the hook and no one here argued that he shouldn't have been punished. You keep stating the same thing over and over,as if someone disagrees that Rose shouldn't have been punished. You are so stuck on Pete Rose that you missed the Neyer article being about Amphetamines and Steroids. And you and your buddy Brett claim that I've lost it. :rolleyes:
 
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Parade_Rain

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Why ? Because you believe a baseball player works harder during a 7 month season then the average working guy does for 12 months ?

Tell me what most of these ballplayers been doing these last 4 months beside working out to stay in shape while the Avg joe been getting up at 5 AM putting in a full day of work etc...
Let us know when your entire living is based upon being able to hit a 95 mph fastball.
 

SilenceS

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Hockey, basketball and football, I see your point. Baseball not so much.
Comparing amphetamines and steroids is like weed to heroin.
Steroids are on a different level of cheating. Players used to drink shitloads of coffee to get a greenie buzz.

:crazydance:
 

chibears55

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Let us know when your entire living is based upon being able to hit a 95 mph fastball.
Got nothing to do with anything discussed..

Let me know when their living is based upon hours of hard physical labor 40+ hours a week for 12 months and 30 yrs before they could consider retiring. ...

Im not minimizing the work these guys have to do to prepare themselves for a baseball season and career..
I just dont find it as an excuse to feel like they need to take drugs to make it through a game or season because there are thousands of people who work 100 times harder then they do every day and don't feel the need to take drugs to get through the day...
 

Parade_Rain

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Got nothing to do with anything discussed..
It has everything to do with what's being discussed. It's not the forum's problem that you think a 20 something athlete earning a living swinging at 95 mph fastballs equals a working stiff or a desk jockey. The jobs aren't remotely similar.

Let me know when their living is based upon hours of hard physical labor 40+ hours a week for 12 months and 30 yrs before they could consider retiring. ...
Since a human being's physical performance begins to fade in their early 30's that isn't going to happen. Your comparison is illogical.

Im not minimizing the work these guys have to do to prepare themselves for a baseball season and career..
Yet that appears to be what you are doing.

I just dont find it as an excuse to feel like they need to take drugs to make it through a game or season
What do you know! We agree.
 

chibears55

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It has everything to do with what's being discussed. It's not the forum's problem that you think a 20 something athlete earning a living swinging at 95 mph fastballs equals a working stiff or a desk jockey. The jobs aren't remotely similar.

well you obviously didn't read all the posts before jumping into the conversation... I had already mentioned that I wasnt comparing them to a suit n tie guy working behind the desk but to the tons of other jobs that are actual hard labor...

I mean seriously.. standing at home plate taking a swing at a 95 mph fastball is not hard labor.. takes skill to hit it, but not labor


Since a human being's physical performance begins to fade in their early 30's that isn't going to happen. Your comparison is illogical.

seriously ? maybe that you if your over 30, or your 20 and really have no idea..
people are still actively working hard into their 30s and 40s, not by choice but because they need to make a living..


Yet that appears to be what you are doing.

nope... but I think your confusing Skill ( hitting a fastball ) with actual labor
 

Parade_Rain

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well you obviously didn't read all the posts before jumping into the conversation... I had already mentioned that I wasnt comparing them to a suit n tie guy working behind the desk but to the tons of other jobs that are actual hard labor...
Do you know what a working stiff is? Obviously not. I used both terms so it was essentially inclusive of most of the 40 hour/wk workforce
I mean seriously.. standing at home plate taking a swing at a 95 mph fastball is not hard labor.. takes skill to hit it, but not labor
You don't understand how skill is attained. Skill is different than talent.
seriously ? maybe that you if your over 30, or your 20 and really have no idea..
This is plain dumb. I was born in the 60's. This is the best argument you have? Physical human performance begins to decline in the early 30's (32/33). That is a fact.
people are still actively working hard into their 30s and 40s, not by choice but because they need to make a living..
I work 60+ hours a week between both of my professions, sometimes more depending upon the season. Do you want a cookie because you need to make a living?
nope... but I think your confusing Skill ( hitting a fastball ) with actual labor
Um. No. I think I know the hard work and dedication that has to occur in order to have that skill work in a game at the highest level possible.
 

SilenceS

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http://www.princetonreview.com/Careers.aspx?cid=22

Career: Baseball Player

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A Day in the life of a Baseball Player

A baseball player plays baseball. Bet you could have guessed that. Although very few people actually get to do this for a living, we've included it in this book because it is a dream job for so many. This internationally played sport attracts millions of viewers worldwide who admire, trust and respect the men who play the game. A baseball player's career has two distinct and very different stages: the minor leagues and the major leagues. At the beginning of the overwhelming majority of players' careers, they are ushered into the three-tier system of minor-league professional baseball: Single-A baseball (the lowest minor league level), double-A baseball (the middle minor league level) and triple-A baseball (the highest minor league level). Working in such exotic locations as Toledo, Norwalk, and Columbus, baseball players follow the instructions of their coaches and work on specific baseball skills, general conditioning, and emotional maturity. The last is the most underrated portion of the profession, but it is a significant factor in making it to the major leagues. Hours are long. Players pack and carry their own luggage for long bus trips to games. Many hold additional jobs in the off-season to make ends meet, which can be hard to do on a salary of about $180/week. Satisfaction is low in the minors, but players enjoy a strong sense of camaraderie with other aspiring major leaguers. Many remain late after practices and games to work on skills, weight training, and conditioning. Major league players have the advantage of a strong union, and the minimum salary for entry-level players is $109,000 per season, which lasts roughly eight months, from March through October. They do not carry their own luggage. Practices are plentiful in the spring, but do not take place during the season. Players are required to show up at least one hour before game time prepared to play, to be in reasonable condition, and to obey the direction of the manager and coaches. Baseball players are under a great deal of pressure to perform during games. They lack job security; one significant injury, such as a torn ligament or an eye disorder, that prevents a player from playing at his best level could mean the end of a career. On an even less dramatic level, playing inconsistently and losing the trust of your manager can lead to the same result.
Paying Your Dues

It takes skill, luck, and hard work to have a shot at becoming a baseball player, and even then, your chances are slim. No academic requirements exist for baseball players; in fact, many are drafted immediately out of high school. First, you need talent--excellent hand-eye coordination, the right body-type, and specific baseball skills. Then, you need good coaching and training, so that you stand out from the other millions of young people who play baseball. This can be accomplished through hard work and dedication, in addition to your incredible skill. Then you need luck to play in a game where a scout or a college recruiter can observe you, and you need to play well on that day. If you make it to the minor leagues, you find that everyone else is as young, talented, and highly thought of as you are. Around 700 players participate in the major leagues each year. Once there, the average career lasts 2.7 years.
Associated Careers

Many players enter businesses where their high level of dedication and performance is appreciated. Those who are very successful need not have another career after baseball, but many become entrepreneurs, commentators, or coaches. A significant few make solid livings from memorabilia shows, autographs, and product endorsements.
 

SilenceS

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From Ask the Baseball Pro:
Kevin wrote:
What is the average amount of hours a professional baseball player works in a year?

From the Baseball Pro:
Kevin,
This is a hard question to answer because we do not have normal work schedules. Also we must work out at the gym so I guess you must count that as work also. On most day games you spend a minimum of 8 hours at the park. You get there at 2 for some early hitting or throwing, batting practice starts at 3:30 and the game is not over til 10 or so. Spring training days tend to be a minimum of 8 hours as well. So 140 something games a year plus 30 days of spring training bring us to 170 days. 170 days times 8 hours a day comes to 1360 hours. Add in 1 hour of gym time every other day during the season and you get 85 more hours. So from spring training through the last game you have close to 1500 hours of work. That is only in a six month span and does not include offseason workouts which usually are 5 days a week for 2 hours, as well as baseball ativity which begins in January and that takes a minimum of 1 hour a day until spring training starts.
Your Baseball Pro, Steve Holm

P.S. Welllll, my observation is that baseball pretty much occupies a player 24/7 from the time they go to spring training camp in March through the end of the season in September/October. A player is either at the game, getting ready for the game several hours in advance, or doing his own personal conditioning at a local gym. There are also some team meetings, and promotional activities. A player is at the game every day, even if not playing, except the 2 or 3 days the team does not play during the month.

There isn’t much personal time, even for doing laundry or taking care of bills. Travel also takes a lot of time, particularly the bus rides in the minor leagues. Keep in mind that half of the baseball games are on the road, so the player is at the home city only half the time.

After the season is over, players get temporary jobs, preferably in something related to baseball. But most importantly, they need to have time to continue their conditioning and practice in the off-season, so they are ready for spring training.

Baseball is a passion, and the hours are demanding!
Host Mom, Jean

http://www.baseballextra.com/minor-...8/how-many-hours-does-a-baseball-player-work/
 

chibears55

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Do you know what a working stiff is? Obviously not. I used both terms so it was essentially inclusive of most of the 40 hour/wk workforce

my bad , I missed those words

You don't understand how skill is attained. Skill is different than talent.

id must rather spend a couple hours a day with a bat in my hand then 8+ hours with a working tool....

This is plain dumb. I was born in the 60's. This is the best argument you have? Physical human performance begins to decline in the early 30's (32/33). That is a fact.

it may decline but your still physically working... how many ballplayers are still physically working into their late 30s on up ? very few to none


Um. No. I think I know the hard work and dedication that has to occur in order to have that skill work in a game at the highest level possible.

again .. would much rather do what they do over a 12 month period then doing what a ton of hard working laborers do in that time frame...



im going to end this conversation with this because obviously were not going to agree..

I don't consider working out, running, taking batting and fielding practice, playing a game of baseball, or flying on a team plane even at 3 AM over a 7 month period more physically draining then of a 40 + hour a week for 12 months laborer...
 

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I like how someone was trying to bang the hypocrisy drum. Steroids and gambling couldn't be more different. With steroids, regardless of how one feels about them, people are taking them to in order to be successful--in other words, to try to help their team win. Betting on baseball isn't that way. Even if it is believed that someone has been betting on his team, the fear exists that, at some point in time, a scenario might exist where someone is eventually throwing games.

If you want to talk about hypocrisy involving steroids, look at how people view its usage in the NFL vs Major League Baseball. It's far more tolerated by casual observers in the NFL' when it should be the opposite. Baseball isn't a contact sport--football is. In football someone can get injured by a player who is on steroids because that player is on steroids. The change in size and body mass can make the difference how badly another player gets hurt from impact. But this reality gets ignored.

Does this all tie back to sports writers having an axe to grind against Barry Bonds because they didn't like how he treated them? As petty as that sounds, this steroid stuff could be more about Bonds being a "jerk" than it is about actually using steroids. When steroids became connected to Bonds, does seem to sync up with the shift in how the media viewed it. If not for Barry Bonds, one wonders if steroids would have ever been stigmatized the way it has. So, is this really about steroids or is it about how the sports writers feel Bonds is a jerk and steroids is the most convenient vehicle to vilify him? If so, my question is, why does anyone feel a need to pick sides between Bonds and the sports writers? And isn't it kind of an abuse of the sports writers position to carry out grudges this way? It certainly lacks integrity. And isn't it almost the ultimate in hypocrisy to lack integrity while calling out someone else former the same?

And if you think this isn't true, try explaining how Clemens as more hall of fame votes than Bonds? If you look at their careers before its believed by most that they started using, Bonds has the better resume. And it's often said Bonds was a HOFer before but not really so much with Clemens. From 1993 to 1995, Clemens' innings pitched were clearly on the decline. Steroids helps you recover and this is why it's used just as prominently with pitchers, if not more.
 

SilenceS

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Betting could affect the outcome of the game. Steroids does affect the outcome of the game. It is hypocritical. The rest of your post I mostly agree with.
 

Parade_Rain

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I like how someone was trying to bang the hypocrisy drum. Steroids and gambling couldn't be more different. With steroids, regardless of how one feels about them, people are taking them to in order to be successful--in other words, to try to help their team win. Betting on baseball isn't that way. Even if it is believed that someone has been betting on his team, the fear exists that, at some point in time, a scenario might exist where someone is eventually throwing games.
As SilenceS has stated repeatedly, betting may affect the outcome of the game. PEDS do affect the outcome of a game. I referenced Braun earlier in the thread.

If you want to talk about hypocrisy involving steroids, look at how people view its usage in the NFL vs Major League Baseball. It's far more tolerated by casual observers in the NFL' when it should be the opposite. Baseball isn't a contact sport--football is. In football someone can get injured by a player who is on steroids because that player is on steroids. The change in size and body mass can make the difference how badly another player gets hurt from impact. But this reality gets ignored.
I dislike it's usage in football and have a general dislike for unnatural athletes as an on-the-field product.

Does this all tie back to sports writers having an axe to grind against Barry Bonds because they didn't like how he treated them? As petty as that sounds, this steroid stuff could be more about Bonds being a "jerk" than it is about actually using steroids. When steroids became connected to Bonds, does seem to sync up with the shift in how the media viewed it. If not for Barry Bonds, one wonders if steroids would have ever been stigmatized the way it has. So, is this really about steroids or is it about how the sports writers feel Bonds is a jerk and steroids is the most convenient vehicle to vilify him? If so, my question is, why does anyone feel a need to pick sides between Bonds and the sports writers? And isn't it kind of an abuse of the sports writers position to carry out grudges this way? It certainly lacks integrity. And isn't it almost the ultimate in hypocrisy to lack integrity while calling out someone else former the same?
Doubtful. It goes back to andro being seen in Mac's locker and the sheer ease at which roid monsters were destroying offensive records, not jut Sosa, McGuire and Bonds. You had a lead-off hitter in Baltimore who never hit for power pull out a 50+ HR season. Fans got sick of it quickly.

And if you think this isn't true, try explaining how Clemens as more hall of fame votes than Bonds? If you look at their careers before its believed by most that they started using, Bonds has the better resume. And it's often said Bonds was a HOFer before but not really so much with Clemens. From 1993 to 1995, Clemens' innings pitched were clearly on the decline. Steroids helps you recover and this is why it's used just as prominently with pitchers, if not more.
Voters want to punish Bonds more than they do Clemens.
 

brett05

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Telling you that a ball player dont need to take pick me up pills or whatever they need illigally to make it through a day if a regular joe who actually works for a living dont need to...
Fwiw Cal Ripken agrees with you
 

brett05

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Let us know when your entire living is based upon being able to hit a 95 mph fastball.
Their living is based on avoiding the couple of kids each leg of a commute avoiding them when they are driving 80-100 mph
 

brett05

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Watching rose now and he said two things. 1) he bet every game as an edge. 2) buy my book if you want answers
 

JZsportsfan

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Depends on what type of athlete you are comparing. The great ones obviously put in more work. On the field and off. Even in baseball you have guys doing film work and preparation. Not really going to go read the entire debate going on here, so I'll just leave it at that
 

brett05

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3) only regret in life is betting. Does not regret lying
 

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