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brett05

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CHi,
The question is like this:

Would you take $10 million dollars but the Cubs are contracted and replaced with a team elsewhere?
 

chibears55

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CHi,
The question is like this:

Would you take $10 million dollars but the Cubs are contracted and replaced with a team elsewhere?
Sorry don't understand your question...

I don't understand why my original question was so difficult

It was a simple yes or no question

Would you be OK if they traded Arrieta for Trout



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DanTown

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Sorry don't understand your question...

I don't understand why my original question was so difficult

It was a simple yes or no question

Would you be OK if they traded Arrieta for Trout



Sent from my LG-V495 using Tapatalk

I don't mind trading Arrieta but there has to be someone coming back who is a perennial 5+ WAR pitcher either via FA or trade. Seeing as the only FA pitcher who fit that (Strasburg) is off the market, I don't see how one year of Jake brings that back.

Arrieta for Trout is a completely illogical deal for both sides: if the Angels trade Trout then they obviously want as many good players as they can get with as many controllable years as they can get where as the Cubs would only trade Arrieta for a better long term SP.
 

brett05

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Sorry don't understand your question...

I don't understand why my original question was so difficult

It was a simple yes or no question

Would you be OK if they traded Arrieta for Trout



Sent from my LG-V495 using Tapatalk

The question from me is the same.
Do you want $10 million dolalrs and no Cubs team in baseball or do you want the Cubs to still be a team and have no $10 million dollars.
 

chibears55

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The question from me is the same.
Do you want $10 million dolalrs and no Cubs team in baseball or do you want the Cubs to still be a team and have no $10 million dollars.
Ummm..I'll take the 10 mil and root for another team

Now explain the reasoning of the question or should we wait til everyone turns your question into something else totally different then it is ?

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brett05

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Ummm..I'll take the 10 mil and root for another team

Now explain the reasoning of the question or should we wait til everyone turns your question into something else totally different then it is ��

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Of course you take the $10 million. And the opposite is true, of course you take Mike Trout for Jake in a trade.
 

TC in Mississippi

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Braves fire Fredi Gonzales and bench coach Carlos Tosca. Gonzales got jobbed. No way is he responsible for that mess, and how could their FO expect any different? You lose on purpose and fire your guy midseason? Low rent, sorry. Oh, and I love what they're doing there btw this is just an unfortunate misstep IMO.

\
 

TC in Mississippi

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It's often said that pitching wins championships. In some ways that's very true but pitching is volatile to say the least. Clayton Kershaw and David Price have never been great playoff pitchers and yet you'd want either one leading you into the playoffs. Kansas City won the WS last year with mediocre starters and a great bullpen. Madison Bumgarner stood on his head (all due respects to hockey) and won the WS single handedly for SF in 2014. We've seen mediocre starters become great in the playoffs and entire staffs of good, but not remarkable pitchers look like the best in the game to win it it all as exampled by the 2005 White Sox. Pitching is important but undpredictable.

As we close in on the quarter way mark in 2016 the Mets have, as expected, the best overall staff in baseball by WAR, FIP and xFIP while the Cubs are second in those categories and first in ERA. If you look at individuals, particularly starters around the league, you get some odd numbers. Matt Harvey's K/9 is the lowest of his career while his other numbers are right in line with his career numbers and yet he doesn't look quite right. His ERA seems to indicate that at 4.93 and yet his FIP and xFIP are still quite good at 3.35 and 3.77 respectively. Chances are he'll find his groove and get back to being their staff ace but in the meantime that's Noah Syndergaard who's putting up Cy Young type numbers. Shelby Miller was traded to Arizona for one of the biggest hauls in history and is putting up awful numbers across the board, 6.64 ERA, 6.56 FIP and 5.62 xFIP with terrible peripherals and the lowest K/9 of his career after breaking out as a TOR starter with the Braves in 2015. David Price has struggled, the Dodgers who were thought to have awful pitching behind Kershaw with no bullpen are 4th in baseball bunched up with the Cubs and Nationals. Oh and the White Sox and Phillies aren't far behind and while there were signs that the Sox had that kind of talent the young Philly starters are a huge surprise. The Cubs have only 1 pitcher in Jake Arrieta in teh top 10 but all 5 starters in the top 35. The Phillies have 2 in the top 35 and 3 in the top 50. In other randomness Dallas Kuechel, the reigning AL CY young winner, is absolutely awful while Rich Hill, out of baseball for a few years, is 16th in the game with better than respectable numbers. Tim Sale is predictably on his way to a Cy Young type year, but if you close Jose Quintana, always extremely underrated, is actually better. Go figure.

My point in all of this is that you really never know how pitching is going to shake out so the only thing organizations can do is put together the best collection of arms they can, build the best depth they can, rely on their coaching and training staffs and trust that they made the right decisions. Every day I hear people say that the Mets are going to the World Series because they have the best staff since the 90's Braves. Washington had one of those last year and won nothing, lost Jordan Zimmerman and now have a better staff. When we talk pitching we have to realize we're talking about the most difficult thing to predict in the game. Hitters slump and have outlier years good and bad, but they're more predictable and with less injury and attrition rates than pitchers. That rarely gets talked about, well Theo Epstein talks about it and a few others, but fans, including myself, usually concentrate on pitching. We're not wrong but my whole point here is pitching isn't easy and it defies expectations more often than not.
 

brett05

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I liked the write up, but I don't see your point in that pitching is harder to predict than hitting. Not saying it isn't true, but one could go thru that with hitters for the current year too.
 

TC in Mississippi

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I liked the write up, but I don't see your point in that pitching is harder to predict than hitting. Not saying it isn't true, but one could go thru that with hitters for the current year too.

You could but I've seen numbers that show hitting to have less volatility than pitching and regresses to the mean more reliably. We know the injury risk to be less. I'll try to dig some of those up.
 

brett05

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You could but I've seen numbers that show hitting to have less volatility than pitching and regresses to the mean more reliably. We know the injury risk to be less. I'll try to dig some of those up.

I agree the injury is greater with pitchers than hitters. Pitchers are a way bigger part of the game then a batter. The pitchers motions are more violent than a hitters motions as well. But great pitchers are great pitchers pretty consistently as they are with hitters. Now crowning someone too early as a great is another issue.
 

TC in Mississippi

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I agree the injury is greater with pitchers than hitters. Pitchers are a way bigger part of the game then a batter. The pitchers motions are more violent than a hitters motions as well. But great pitchers are great pitchers pretty consistently as they are with hitters. Now crowning someone too early as a great is another issue.

Pitching vs. hitting is a pretty big debate even if once upon a time what you have stated was considered an axiom. In this piece from Roger Weber http://baseballjudgments.tripod.com/id80.html he cites Bill James conclusions "on average and a very unstable average, 45% hitting, 36% pitching, 16% fielding and 3% baserunning. These are the percentages by which each aspect of the game affect the outcomes of games. So according to James, who has indisputably done the research, hitting affects the game more than does pitching." If you continue to dive deep into it that's fairly close to a consensus though among analytics folks around baseball. Afain you can go digging but you'll find a host of pieces that come to similar conclusions. That said I read something last year (I tried to find it without success, pretty sure it was on Fangraphs) where while that thinking is common if front offices and their analytics departments around baseball when managers were polled it was more like 75% pitching. So once again you run into old school vs. new school but the numbers folks back it up to varying degrees while the managers are repeating what they've been taught and anecdotal evidence. I tend to veer to that end but I do think it's open to debate.
 

brett05

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I agree it is open to debate. And I don't think anyone can truly quantify it exactly. My anecdotal evidence is that to a hitter they all say if a pitcher is on, he's unhittable.
 

SilenceS

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I agree it is open to debate. And I don't think anyone can truly quantify it exactly. My anecdotal evidence is that to a hitter they all say if a pitcher is on, he's unhittable.

They say the same about a batter like Trout and Cabrera.
 

brett05

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They say the same about a batter like Trout and Cabrera.

I would say that if asked to them, they would say when a pitcher is on, the advantage is all pitcher.

EDIT: The numbers kind of bear this out too. You are a successful hitter if you succeed 3/10 times.
 

TC in Mississippi

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I would say that if asked to them, they would say when a pitcher is on, the advantage is all pitcher.

EDIT: The numbers kind of bear this out too. You are a successful hitter if you succeed 3/10 times.

I don't disagree but that's not the overall picture and even the very best pitchers can be gotten to once in a while. It's a pretty complex question overall. If I was retired I'd dig up all the data I could and study it, just because I'm wired that way, but retirement is at least a decade and a half off so that will have to wait. Even if you go by James' numbers I posted above though when you add up pitching and defense run prevention is more important than run creation, but while there have been very competitive "no hit wonders" type teams it's really tough to win without scoring your share of runs.
 

brett05

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TC,

It very well could be a chicken and the egg argument.
 

beckdawg

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Mets assistant GM John Ricco suggested today that the club is in the market for a first baseman with Lucas Duda suffering a stress fracture in his lower back, David Lennon of Newsday reports on Twitter. “We’re not going to be able to replace Lucas Duda internally,” said Ricco.

This is interesting to me because while not an ideal defensive guy the cubs do have Vogelbach who's crushing AAA right now(.319/.421/.526 with 7 HRs in 159 PAs) and presumably is MLB ready from a bat standpoint. Now to be clear you're probably unlikely to build a trade around Vogelbach himself but the Mets were 24th in runs scored with Duda. And likely could use some more help.

There's long been speculation of a Cubs/Mets trade for pitching/hitting and with Zach Wheeler having a ETA of July for a return, a trade would seem to make a lot of sense. I see no way they are trading Syndergaard and de Grom as they seem to be their top 2 guys. I would sort of expect Harvey to be in there but there's been a some what contentious relationship there before and he's not having an amazing season from an ERA standpoint though the underlying numbers look better. Matz features a sinker which the cubs seem to like with 3 starters having one(Hendricks, Arrieta and Lester) but is pitching well. You then have Colon who's old but still performing. For what it's worth, Duda is also 30 so not a long term solution really. They do have Dominic Smith who's well regarded but probably 2ish years away from the majors.

I'm not entirely convinced the pieces are there for each side to make a deal because let's be honest here... one hasn't happened yet. But it's definitely worth keeping an eye on because presumably if the Mets are going to add both offense and a 1B it's going to be with pitching. Looking around the league there doesn't appear to be many 1B who'll be marketed. Chris Carter on the Brewers might make sense for them. Ditto for Mark Reynolds and the Rockies.
 

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