Adam Wainwright probably out for the season

[Parade_Rain]

I never said it refuted all of it. Nice try

 

[Diehardfan]

IMOP the DH at it's worst takes away the advantage a smart, solid manager has over his opponent. It dummies down the game.

 

[Parade_Rain]

IMOP the DH at it's worst takes away the advantage a smart, solid manager has over his opponent. It dummies down the game.

Exactly. Once the lineup is set, the only question is "when do I take out the pitcher".

 

[brett05]

IMOP the DH at it's worst takes away the advantage a smart, solid manager has over his opponent. It dummies down the game.

At worst and that's only theoretical.

 

[brett05]

Exactly. Once the lineup is set, the only question is "when do I take out the pitcher".

:lol:

 

[beckdawg]

Not a lot of decision making when you got an auto out in the lineup and potentially one or two more guys you can pitch around because of that auto out.

Disagree entirely. If you are the team batting and you have a starter at 85 pitches with a guy on first and 1 out do you leave him in? Let's say he's throwing a shut out and looked good but you're not hitting the opposing pitcher and this might be one of your few shots at a run. To me that's an interesting decision. If you have a DH hitting 9th there's no decision there. I'd also argue pitching around players to get to the pitcher is also interesting because if the pitcher hits then it's obviously a blunder. Also, no one double switches in the AL. That is an interesting situation because you're having to use your bench to shuffle around the pitchers spot.

Either way, I don't really see how it benefits the game personally to have a DH. As I said before, more runs to me at least doesn't make a better game. The people complaining about them being auto-outs are probably the same people complaining about the lengths of games in large part. You start scoring 5-7 runs a game and that game length gets even longer.

Also, I'd say that philosophically something bothers me about promoting players who are crap defensively which is what tends to happen with DH's. I'm fine with those players in LF because you have to play around their inadequacies. DH's don't make you do that.

 

[Parade_Rain]

:lol:

Hey, changing out the pitcher is really tough stuff. Did you read your larussa article? I mean geez, that's some real nail-biting strategy there.

 

[Diehardfan]

The DH kills a ton of spontaneity in the game as well. How cool is it when a pitcher comes through with a hit or a home run. Some of the best games I've ever been at featured a pitcher do big things with a bat and not just his arm. I saw Lindy McDaniel get out of a bases loaded, nobody out situation back in 1963 by throwing one pitch...no triple play...before he threw the pitch, he wheeled around and picked off Willie Mays at second then Bailly hit into a DP. But the corker was that he hit a home run to win it in the next inning. 1989 playoffs...the only playoff game I've ever been to....Mike Bielicki caps off a 6 run first inning by driving in two runs with a 2 out base hit. The great thing about it was it was the first hit he had all year. Great stuff you miss out on with the DH.

 

[2323]

None of that regards the DH. It regards when to pinch hit. It mentions nothing of a double switch, etc.

Not to mention when you sacrifice bunt. You wouldn't sacrifice bunt in front of the pitcher. Brett is a dumbass and unworthy of a response. It's generous saying he's here to troll. It's also possible he's simply dumb.

 

[CSF77]

Keep it status que. NL doesn't need it and the AL would lose a bunch of jobs by losing the DH. Players Union would be for as it creates a new need for more hitters. NL ownership against it.

To me, taking on a DH just to create a job for Vogelbach is dumb. Rather trade him to the AL in a package.

 

[2323]

Keep it status que. NL doesn't need it and the AL would lose a bunch of jobs by losing the DH. Players Union would be for as it creates a new need for more hitters. NL ownership against it.

To me, taking on a DH just to create a job for Vogelbach is dumb. Rather trade him to the AL in a package.

What makes you so sure Vbach isn't going to be a better hitter than Rizzo?

 

[CSF77]

What makes you so sure Vbach isn't going to be a better hitter than Rizzo?

His glove will never be better.

 

[2323]

His glove will never be better.

Swinging the bat is more important for 1B.

 

[CSF77]

Swinging the bat is more important for 1B.

Not really. But the fact that Rizzo is running a .477 OBA is not hurting him either. Or that he hit 30 HR's last year.... or that he was a all star... can we go on here?

How about you are putting a AA player over him? amazing.

 

[CSF77]

If you look at the numbers Bryant is the only guy to even keep up with Rizzo right now. And we know how good Bryant is all ready. Just OBA alone. Rizzo .477, Bryant .471 then Castro .342. That is how far behind the rest are to those 2. Just watch when the weather warms up and the power on those 2 starts picking up.....

 

[brett05]

The DH kills a ton of spontaneity in the game as well. How cool is it when a pitcher comes through with a hit or a home run. Some of the best games I've ever been at featured a pitcher do big things with a bat and not just his arm. I saw Lindy McDaniel get out of a bases loaded, nobody out situation back in 1963 by throwing one pitch...no triple play...before he threw the pitch, he wheeled around and picked off Willie Mays at second then Bailly hit into a DP. But the corker was that he hit a home run to win it in the next inning. 1989 playoffs...the only playoff game I've ever been to....Mike Bielicki caps off a 6 run first inning by driving in two runs with a 2 out base hit. The great thing about it was it was the first hit he had all year. Great stuff you miss out on with the DH.

Those sites are so rare you don't game for them IMO.

 

[brett05]

Disagree entirely. If you are the team batting and you have a starter at 85 pitches with a guy on first and 1 out do you leave him in? Let's say he's throwing a shut out and looked good but you're not hitting the opposing pitcher and this might be one of your few shots at a run. To me that's an interesting decision. If you have a DH hitting 9th there's no decision there.

If your DH is hitting ninth he's not much of a DH. There are other factors to consider on whether I pull the pitcher or not for a hitter off the bench.

I'd also argue pitching around players to get to the pitcher is also interesting because if the pitcher hits then it's obviously a blunder.

True in any situation where folks are pitched around. Put when it's done for the pitcher 9 out of ten times it works fine. Not much interest there at 10%.

Also, no one double switches in the AL. That is an interesting situation because you're having to use your bench to shuffle around the pitchers spot.

Double switching is so overrated. It's not rocket science. Heck it's not even long division.

Either way, I don't really see how it benefits the game personally to have a DH. As I said before, more runs to me at least doesn't make a better game.

We agree.

Also, I'd say that philosophically something bothers me about promoting players who are crap defensively which is what tends to happen with DH's. I'm fine with those players in LF because you have to play around their inadequacies. DH's don't make you do that.

Thankfully that doesn't really ever happen. So are you saying it would start in the NL???

 

[2323]

Not really. But the fact that Rizzo is running a .477 OBA is not hurting him either. Or that he hit 30 HR's last year.... or that he was a all star... can we go on here?

How about you are putting a AA player over him? amazing.

I'm not putting him over Rizzo. But if Vbach makes it, it will be because of his bat. If he turns into the better hitter, he's the one they should keep. Will it happen? Not likely. Rizzo is a Theo guy. I think V was drafted by hendry. On that basis alone, I'm quite certain Thoyer will trade V and keep Rizzo, even if it's becoming a greater certainty that V will be the better hitter.

None of that is terribly relevant now. And it may never be. But I was talking about a scenario referenced above.

And yes, 1B is a position where there's a premium on offense.

 

[CSF77]

I'm not putting him over Rizzo. But if Vbach makes it, it will be because of his bat. If he turns into the better hitter, he's the one they should keep. Will it happen? Not likely. Rizzo is a Theo guy. I think V was drafted by hendry. On that basis alone, I'm quite certain Thoyer will trade V and keep Rizzo, even if it's becoming a greater certainty that V will be the better hitter.

None of that is terribly relevant now. And it may never be. But I was talking about a scenario referenced above.

And yes, 1B is a position where there's a premium on offense.

Goldschmidt won a gold glove. D is not to be pushed aside for O. Pujos won gold gloves. again. Vogelbach has a strong OBA but we are talking about a hitter dominating AA vs MLB pitching. But it is his glove that keeps him from being a top 100 ranked prospect. He has never been a ranked prospect so yes that has diminished his value in the eyes of those who view him.

I've said he is the best prospect that Hendry picked in a draft. But Hendry picked tool's guys vs picking the best ball players. Even Shark at best is a 3 and Cashner who has a power arm has not taken on the role of staff ace or for that matter kept healthy. Another tools guy. Baez tools guy. Theo;s drafts has been by far been better quality picks and we are seeing the pitching depth starting to upwell.

 

[CSF77]

Take that back: He drafted Josh Donaldson as a catcher and tossed him aside as a add in player in 2008 for Rich Harden. So he did pick 1 superstar but miss evaluated his worth.:facepalm: