Bullsman24
Mr Metta World Peace
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it depends on the positional matchup. obviously yao ming doesn't deserve to go but he did because he's a center.
it depends on the positional matchup. obviously yao ming doesn't deserve to go but he did because he's a center.
houheffna
Ignoring Idiots
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There are a lot of things that enter into the equation. My point is that if you say a player is more deserving based on the fact that he is a better player, is not JJ the best player on the team? So how are Horford and Josh Smith more deserving than the best player on their own team? The formula doesn't work. That is my point...
Shakes
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Obviously I agree that they're not interchangeable. If you put Allen in Atlanta he's probably not going to do as well as Johnson (in his prime though he may well have). If you put Johnson in Ray Allen's role I don't think he'd be as good at it as Ray Allen either.
The Hawks are kind of like the Nuggets though in that they have a bit of an every man for himself offense. What did the Nuggets call it, something like chaos offense? It's an offense that relies on creation shots by the player on the ball. The Celtics rely on creating shots by freeing themselves off the ball. Given more teams seem to lean towards the Celtics style offense than the Hawks, I tend to think people probably under value guys like Allen's skills.
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You're off-base here. I already stated that Allen has much more offense created for him than Johnson does. That doesn't mean that they aren't somewhat interchangeable players. There are teams like the Bulls who could use a guy like Ray Allen much more than Joe Johnson. But I already said that I was wrong on that 1st or 2nd page, and I should have given Johnson the edge overall over Allen.
Wade, Bryant, Ginobili... and uhh.. Eric Gordon and Monta Ellis? Those are the only players you could put in front of either Johnson or Allen at that position. Allen isn't exactly chopped liver when it comes to defense or passing or ball-handling, and he is faster on ball-screens than Johnson though that isn't really Johnson's game. And I didn't say that I don't watch Johnson play. This year I have been concentrating a lot on the Bulls and haven't watched as many games of other teams THIS year, but I am still very familiar with guys the caliber of Joe Johnson.
I respect where you're coming from with your argument, but that doesn't change that I feel Duncan deserves it because I believe that head-to-head he would still consistently outplay Love and contain his awesome numbers. Look at guys like Chris Bosh when he was on the Raptors and Al Jefferson when he was on the T-Wolves... these are examples of two guys who owe a lot of their productivity to the fact that they played with teammates who were terrible players by NBA standards. The same holds true with Kevin Love; he is a great player, but he is still not as great as some of the other PFs in the league.
I will concede that Love's individual stats are more efficient than Duncan's this year, but I still know that Duncan is the better player because of the extra dimensions on offense and defense that he gives his teammates which Love doesn't. You can see Duncan's impact in the efficiency of guys like Parker, Ginobili, Hill, Jefferson, Bonner, and Blair. But I am extremely impressed with Love's three-point shooting and rebounding. He is definitely having an All-Star worthy year.
I'm not one of those people who would believe that. KG is definitely the best player of any of those guys mentioned right now and I would prefer him over any of them.
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Look, you can't deny that Al Horford is the most valuable player on Atlanta. Granted- that in itself doesn't make him the best player on the team. But look what the 76ers did to the Hawks last night in Atlanta because Al Horford wasn't there... anything they wanted on offense and contained Johnson as a direct result of that.
Horford is a very underrated player in the NBA and I do think he's the best player on ATL. He's been the most stable of all of the players, and he and Josh Smith both are better defenders/defensive players than Johnson. Both guys are good passers and decent mid-range shooters (like Johnson; not saying they're better in that regard). And they are better rebounders and shoot at the higher percentage.
I wouldn't have said it in 2009, but I think Johnson is the 3rd best player on that Hawks' team now.
houheffna
Ignoring Idiots
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Why are you bringing up western conference guards? What does that have to do with anything???
And what are you basing your Johnson/Horford/Smith argument on??? I rest my case...this year's performance. Duncan is the third best player on his team...Allen is the fourth best player on his team. Has nothing to do with the talent relative to that position in the conference when considering who is allstar worthy. That said, no...hell no, Johnson is not the third best player on that team. And if that is what you are saying, you are not watching the games. That said, you trot out rebounding and field goal percentages to explain why two power forwards are better than a shooting guard, but you don't use the same to point out how a power forward is having a better year than...another power forward? Makes no sense to me at all.
You said head to head Duncan would outplay Love? Wrong!!! Let me help you out with this one now.
Game 1 Duncan 9pts 13rebs Love 32pts 22rebs
Game 2 Duncan 22pts 10 rebs 4blks Love 25pts 18rebs
Game 3 Duncan 8pts 8rebs Love 18pts 17rebs
Game 4 Duncan 16pts 8 rebs Love 20pts 20 rebs
Avg Duncan 13.8ppg 9.8rebs Love 23.8ppg 19.3 rebs
Yeah, Duncan is doing a great job, along with the rest of the Spurs frontline of stopping Love...fantastic.
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You were the one talking about how Allen 'isn't nearly in the top 5 SG discussion'... not me. I was just showing you why I disagree with that assertion.
I've seen plenty of Josh Smith and Al Horford last year and I was starting to see them as the most important pieces on the Hawks' team. Joe Johnson also plays horrendously for whatever reasons in the Playoffs... I base that into my consideration as well. I don't think anybody would find it tooo absurd to say Horford is the best player on that team.
As for the head-to-head meetings between Love and Duncan... it is very easy to manipulate stats from a boxscore to make your case. I can undermimd those stats pretty easily here:
Game 1: Spurs Win
Duncan +1; Love 0
Duncan 9-13-3-0-0 in 30 min; Love 32-22-3-0-0 in 46 min (16 more min)
_____
Game 2: Spurs win again
Duncan +19; Love -4
Duncan 22-10-5-3-4 in 35 min; Love 25-18-3-0-1 in 43 min
_________
Game 3: Spurs win again
Duncan -1; Love +9
Duncan 8-8-5-2-2 in 33 min; 18-17-1-0-0 in 35 min
__________________
Game 4: Spurs win again and sweep season series 4-0
Duncan +16; Love -14
Duncan 16-8-2-2-3 in 30 min; Love 20-20-2-2-0 in 42 min (12 more minutes)
I've seen plenty of Josh Smith and Al Horford last year and I was starting to see them as the most important pieces on the Hawks' team. Joe Johnson also plays horrendously for whatever reasons in the Playoffs... I base that into my consideration as well. I don't think anybody would find it tooo absurd to say Horford is the best player on that team.
As for the head-to-head meetings between Love and Duncan... it is very easy to manipulate stats from a boxscore to make your case. I can undermimd those stats pretty easily here:
Game 1: Spurs Win
Duncan +1; Love 0
Duncan 9-13-3-0-0 in 30 min; Love 32-22-3-0-0 in 46 min (16 more min)
_____
Game 2: Spurs win again
Duncan +19; Love -4
Duncan 22-10-5-3-4 in 35 min; Love 25-18-3-0-1 in 43 min
_________
Game 3: Spurs win again
Duncan -1; Love +9
Duncan 8-8-5-2-2 in 33 min; 18-17-1-0-0 in 35 min
__________________
Game 4: Spurs win again and sweep season series 4-0
Duncan +16; Love -14
Duncan 16-8-2-2-3 in 30 min; Love 20-20-2-2-0 in 42 min (12 more minutes)
Shakes
Iconoclast
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Of course Duncan has better plus/minus, he's playing with players who don't suck, Love is on the Timberwolves.
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My main point is this:
Kevin Love is having a more productive and efficient season statistically than Tim Duncan.
But, all of my arguements about how TD is the better player put aside, that doesn't mean Love is necessarily the better player.
Love definitely hasn't put himself in a tier of big men higher than the 35 year-old hurting Duncan.
Is Love or Duncan in the Howard tier? No.
Is either of them in the Griffin/Nowitzki/Gasol/Stoudemire/Garnett tier? No.
Would Love also be the 3rd best player on his own team if he was on the Spurs? Yes.
Would Duncan also be the best player on his own team if he was on the Timberwolves? Yes.
But you give the benefit of the doubt to winning. Both are the same tier players and one is on the team with the league's best record and the other is on a team with a bottom 5 record.
Sure, in my opinion, the 35 year-old gimpy-legged Duncan is still easily the "better" player (as argumentative as the word "better" is) than Kevin Love. But cases can be made for both sides as to who is better, even though I don't agree with any argument with the conclusion "Love > Duncan, overall." But the benefit of the doubt goes to winning, and I don't think that should be debatable.
Kevin Love is having a more productive and efficient season statistically than Tim Duncan.
But, all of my arguements about how TD is the better player put aside, that doesn't mean Love is necessarily the better player.
Love definitely hasn't put himself in a tier of big men higher than the 35 year-old hurting Duncan.
Is Love or Duncan in the Howard tier? No.
Is either of them in the Griffin/Nowitzki/Gasol/Stoudemire/Garnett tier? No.
Would Love also be the 3rd best player on his own team if he was on the Spurs? Yes.
Would Duncan also be the best player on his own team if he was on the Timberwolves? Yes.
But you give the benefit of the doubt to winning. Both are the same tier players and one is on the team with the league's best record and the other is on a team with a bottom 5 record.
Sure, in my opinion, the 35 year-old gimpy-legged Duncan is still easily the "better" player (as argumentative as the word "better" is) than Kevin Love. But cases can be made for both sides as to who is better, even though I don't agree with any argument with the conclusion "Love > Duncan, overall." But the benefit of the doubt goes to winning, and I don't think that should be debatable.
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That's a fair point. Though if you look at those game logs quarter-by-quarter, you will see a trend of the Timberwolves actually outscoring the Spurs while Duncan is on the bench. It is very possible that MIN could have won 3 or 4 of these games against SAS if Tim Duncan did not play in any of them.
Also, it is fair to say that Duncan makes his teammates better much more than Kevin Love is capable of making his teammates better (as good or bad as they may be). And... Love is playing a good share of minutes on the floor when Duncan is not. That explains why (A) Love's per-game stats mostly trump Duncan's, and (B) how Love manages to pad his stats even more matched-up against Bonner/McDyess, and how his teammates kept the games somewhat close.
I'm not suggesting that being able to play more minutes during most regular season games isn't upside for Love over Duncan. I just feel that Duncan is the better player despite that particular disadvantage.
houheffna
Ignoring Idiots
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You are all over the place man. Love is a better player this year...based on performance. That is what is important. Love averaged 20-20 against the Spurs damn near. Spin that shit if you want, you know you are wrong and very wrong. If you had said originally, Duncan went because the Spurs deserved to have another allstar in the game...that is a different issue that has nothing to do with Love. To say that Duncan is a better player than Love this season is just crazy, to say that Duncan outplayed Love is crazy, no matter what hockey stats you want to throw in there.
Also, putting Griffin on the same level...based on this year's performance with Amare, Dirk and Gasol, based on performance...and not put Love on that level, when Love has actually performed as well or better than Griffin is over the top. Griffin is more exciting, but he is not better than Dirk who is arguably league MVP or Gasol based on skills. But most importantly, how do you include Griffin and exclude Love? Love is having a better year than Griffin and Duncan...makes no sense...
Here is a comparison of their stats...
Player Comparison Finder | Basketball-Reference.com
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Look, I respect your opinion and all but I have mine, too. And God... how can you even suggest that Love is right there with Griffin..........
houheffna
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LOOK AT THE STATS!!! How can you suggest Griffin is with Nowitzki and Amare, they are clearly playing at a higher level, an MVP level! Griffin is not...you are all over the map man...you can have your opinion...I just don't understand where you are coming from, and I don't think you know either...
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Man, that is the truth. Blake Griffin is so much better than Kevin Love... let's just concentrate on that.
houheffna
Ignoring Idiots
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Man, that is the truth. Blake Griffin is so much better than Kevin Love... let's just concentrate on that.
Who cares...I laid waste to your argument continuously...no need to take up another argument. My point has been made...
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Except that is only in your mind. You can't just add Pts+rebs+asts to figure out who the better player is.
Griffin>Love. If you don't believe that then you are out of your mind.
houheffna
Ignoring Idiots
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The only thing I don't believe is your analysis. I never said one way or the other, I said Love was having a better season statistically. Please don't tell me how I evaluate who is better, I never said who is better, I said that there is no clear cut level that Griffin is at right now above Love. Plain and simple. I don't think Griffin is better than Dirk nor do I think at this time he is on level with Amare. Your reasoning is messed up, and you are confusing yourself. I have consistently said that allstar appearances should be based on what has been done this year. I still believe that...you believe...hell, YOU don't know what you believe at this point....
