All-Star Reserves Obtained, No Boozer

[houheffna]

Again, like I said before, your definition of "better" seems to be off. Playing more minutes and getting more per-game stats does not make you a better player. In some aspects, Love is having a better season than Duncan- yes. But, to me, the one who deserves to make the team is that better player.

Duncan is a better player than Love. No question.

(And to Frank: even by the logic of just going by 'the All-Star game is a popularity contest anyway so who cares' I will say that stereotypically the All-Star game is about the guys who can bring the house down with the best dunks or blocked shots or flashy plays. So, if we bring that into the equation here, Duncan still beats a guy who is only a great player because of his REBOUNDING and spot-up SHOOTING.)



Whoa whoa whoa... time out. Being an MVP candidate in and of itself does not make you a better player than somebody who is not in the discussion. You seem to agree with the consensus that Rose is the MVP. Yet, you say and continue to say that LeBron James is the best player in the world.

Speaking of LeBron James... Kobe Bryant is more skilled than he is. Does that mean that Kobe Bryant deserves to be an All-Star more than LeBron James?

Answer:

No.

And you know that :smh:

So when I say that Dirk Nowitzki isn't as good of a player as Blake Griffin, I am saying that DESPITE the fact that he is more skilled than Griffin. Griffin is simply an athletic freak/juggernaut.

You need to stop with these cherry-picked analogies of references. Start taking things on a case-by-case basis.

LeBron James > the more skilled Kobe Bryant

Blake Griffin > the more skilled Dirk Nowitzki

and finally Tim Duncan > the better rebounding, better shooting, and defensive liability Kevin Love



Well, I could same the same to you. But the difference is when I say things they seem to actually be true.

And once again... your use of loaded words like "better" are less than sponged with basketball knowledge. And I don't even agree with your interpretation of the word "best/better/sucks" to begin with.



Let's put it this way:


Team A: The San Antonio Spurs w/ Love in Duncan's place
vs.
Team B: The San Antonio Spurs the way they are set up now

Winner:

This is too obvious to even dignify that with an answer

Now another example:

Team A: The Minnesota Timberwolves w/ Duncan in Love's place
vs.
Team B: The Minnesota Timberwolves the way they are now

Now, I will grant you that this one is a little more tricky. If this was a meaningless exhibition then it is possible that Duncan would rest for about 7-10 minutes longer than Love. But nevertheless, during the times they are both on the floor together, both would nearly pull down the same number of rebounds for the fact that neither guy traditionally gives up many offensive rebounds to whomever they are matched up against. And you also must remember that Duncan is a guy who makes others (say Brewer, Ridnour, and even Milicic) better with his great passing and post-up presence. And his defensive presence is astonomically more beneficial than that of Kevin Love. I will grant you that Duncan would have a hard time playing 25 minutes with the pace of the T-Wolves.

But on the other hand, if this was a playoff game (and not a meaningless exhibition), I am fairly confident that given the need-being that Duncan will be able to play a solid 35 minutes or maybe even more (as he has on 5 other occassions this season for example). And who do I trust more in a must-win game situation? Duncan.

So if Duncan should go in ahead of Love...shouldn't Joe Johnson be in the allstar game?
Fair analogy, because what is good for Duncan is good for everyone else in the league.

You said that Duncan could do pretty much the same thing Love is doing if he was on the Wolves. Wrong! Duncan is physically incapable of doing night in and night out what Love has done this year, which is my point.

And how many times do I have to say "better season"? How many times? Duncan is not having a better season than Love, so he doesn't deserve to go in ahead of Love. What is so hard about that concept? Love is having a GREAT season, Duncan is having nothing close to that. Good grief...

As far as comparing Lebron to Kobe...learn more about Lebron's game before making that statement. You said Lebron had no post game...wrong! You said Lebron doesn't use the give and go play...wrong. So you shouldn't use any analogies until you gain the proper knowledge concerning these players and their abilities.

Now as to your hypothetical, players fit better in some systems than in others. Players adjust to what is needed. The Spurs are a good team because of Manu and Parker moreso than Duncan. So putting Love on the Spurs doesn't make a difference. The point is...this year it is very likely Love would still grab the same percentage of shots he is now, he leads the league in rebound percentage and defensive rebound percentage. he would still shoot threes and he would still score 21 points a game, because very few of those plays he scores on are set up for him. And I don't know if you know it yet...we haven't had any playoffs yet. This is the first half of the season. So what Duncan would do in the playoffs has no bearings. He wouldn't make the playoffs with the Wolves anyway. But lets not fool ourselves. Duncan is incapable of doing what Love has done this season...let there be no doubt about that.

 

[Steve Breakfast Styleham]

First of all, Frank, you are insulting all of our intelligence to say you aren't creating aliases for this site. Do what you want, but you're making an ass of yourself.

First of all, Rami, I don't care what you perceive I'm doing. It just makes me laugh to be honest with you!

And you would also know that Tim Duncan had plenty of seasons upward of 12 rebounds per-game (not that it matters now, but it goes to show you are wrong and you don't know what you are talking about).

I said to talk to me when Duncan came anywhere near 15 rebounds a game. 12 isn't 15. And at the moment Duncan only has 8 or 9 rebounds a game to Love's 15. Even when he was TIM DUNCAN he didn't come anywhere near 15 (I would accept 14 and even 13.7777777 but not 12). Where exactly was I wrong and that I don't know what I'm talking about. Walk me through this.

Respect to you and to your opinions. Unlike some people I don't resort to attacking people or name-calling. World would be a better place if we all did.

 

[Steve Breakfast Styleham]

(And to Frank: even by the logic of just going by 'the All-Star game is a popularity contest anyway so who cares' I will say that stereotypically the All-Star game is about the guys who can bring the house down with the best dunks or blocked shots or flashy plays.


Then let's start calling it the "Guys Who can bring the House Down with the Best Dunks or Blocked Shots or Flashy Plays Game."

"Blake Griffin, how do you feel about being chosen to play in the Bring the House Down with the Best Dunks or Blocked Shots or Flashy Plays Game in your rookie year?"

And furthermore, if they're going to give Chris Paul's MVP to Kobe Bryant (as they did 3 or 4 years ago) just because Kobe never won it before, don't call it the MVP. Call it The NBA Lifetime Achievement Award.

 

[houheffna]

(And to Frank: even by the logic of just going by 'the All-Star game is a popularity contest anyway so who cares' I will say that stereotypically the All-Star game is about the guys who can bring the house down with the best dunks or blocked shots or flashy plays.


Then let's start calling it the "Guys Who can bring the House Down with the Best Dunks or Blocked Shots or Flashy Plays Game."

"Blake Griffin, how do you feel about being chosen to play in the Bring the House Down with the Best Dunks or Blocked Shots or Flashy Plays Game in your rookie year?"

And furthermore, if they're going to give Chris Paul's MVP to Kobe Bryant (as they did 3 or 4 years ago) just because Kobe never won it before, don't call it the MVP. Call it The NBA Lifetime Achievement Award.

I was kind of with you until the Kobe MVP thingy...Kobe won the MVP that year because he was robbed by the media who was biased against him a few years before...

But here is the question I want answered from dude...

You say...Duncan should get in before Love because he is a better player...

You also say...Allen should get in before Joe Johnson...why???

Johnson > Allen...so...explain that please...why do you have Allen in and Johnson out???

 

[TheStig]

Bosh shouldn't have made it. He can't even shoot 50% when getting fed open shots. Boozer is shooting great and putting up 20 and 10. He should have gotten in. He deserves to be in. We are what, 1 or 2 games behind the heat?

 

[houheffna]

I'm still waiting on Ramithebullsfan to answer the question I asked...

Explain Johnson/Allen in relation to Duncan/Love...want to see this...the full question is in my last post above this...

 

[Anytime23]

Bosh made it? But...but...He doesnt play defense! This is bullshit!
/sarcasm

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I'm still waiting on Ramithebullsfan to answer the question I asked...

Explain Johnson/Allen in relation to Duncan/Love...want to see this...the full question is in my last post above this...

Both are pretty interchangeable... but you are right, Joe Johnson deserves it more. I haven't paid the Hawks much attention since earlier in the year when JJ got off to a bad start.

But that doesn't change that Duncan>Love. You ignore every aspect of Duncan's game that completely trumps what Love brings to the table... I don't even see the point of continuing on with the whole Duncan/Love conversation. You probably think Roy Hibbert is better than Duncan.

 

[pinkizdead]

ray allen is shooting a crazy good percentage 50% fg shooting and 45.7 from 3. Also he's not shooting a low volume of shots either.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

ray allen is shooting a crazy good percentage 50% fg shooting and 45.7 from 3. Also he's not shooting a low volume of shots either.

Yeah the guy is scoring amazingly efficiently. But I also have to credit that with Rondo and Pierce's court vision and passing ability. You just can't leave a guy like Pierce or Garnett alone either. It sets up easy looks for Ray Allen. And mid-range jump shots are not much more difficult than lay-ups for this guy.

 

[pinkizdead]

i think it's the other way around. rondo is racking up assists because allen is knocking down his shots. allen is having a pretty good year in terms of efficient scoring. Deng is left more than wide open on half his shots, he's not knocking them down like this. Getting a good look is half the battle. The other is knocking it down. Give credit where it's due. Allen's shooting ridiculously well.

 

[houheffna]

Both are pretty interchangeable... but you are right, Joe Johnson deserves it more. I haven't paid the Hawks much attention since earlier in the year when JJ got off to a bad start.

But that doesn't change that Duncan>Love. You ignore every aspect of Duncan's game that completely trumps what Love brings to the table... I don't even see the point of continuing on with the whole Duncan/Love conversation. You probably think Roy Hibbert is better than Duncan.

I NEVER said that Johnson deserved it more, I was using your flawed reasoning. I corrected myself, after saying that JJ should have gone, I recanted that statement because I feel that Allen has played at a high level over a longer period of time...DURING THE SEASON. Sentiments you shared. YOU CHANGED your opinion to suit the Duncan/Love debate, because you were faced with the choice of either denouncing your opinion on Duncan or on Johnson. You chose Johnson and called Allen and Johnson "interchangeable". Which is laughable. You were adamant that Johnson had no business being in LA for the game.

Of course, you don't see the reason to continue a conversation that shouldn't have been had. And you just exposed yourself as a hypocrite. Let me explain to you why...

Initially you said Allen deserved in more than Johnson who "absolutely" shouldn't go....
You based that on what???? IN SEASON PERFORMANCE...namely your perception that Johnson has not played up to an allstar level based on his poor start, no regard to the rest of the year (I believe you looked at a spreadsheet to come to your conclusion personally...).

Then you say Johnson deserves it more, but give no credible reason why he deserves to be there...none

So why is Johnson more deserving than Allen? Is it because he is a better player? Johnson was a better player before the season started. So why did you use Johnson's bad start to say that he is "absolutely not" deserving of an allstar bid. He is better than any shooting guard in the East not named Wade right???

Why critique Johnson's performance and not Duncan's? Allen is having a better season than Johnson, at least offensively. Love is having a MUCH better season than Duncan, not even close. You were only ready to correct your inconsistency when I pointed out that you were not using the same criteria across the board. Point being you actually used PERFORMANCE to make the decision with everybody but Duncan. Now when shown that...you flip flopped...lol. By the way, Johnson and Allen are NOT interchangeable. Johnson is clearly the better player when both are at their best.

So yeah, no need to continue the conversation, just showing your inconsistencies, and your hypocrisies. The whole purpose was to show you that you are wrong in how you analyzed Duncan and Love. If you want to analyze the whole damn league that way, go ahead, you are going to look awfully foolish picking your allstars based on positional rankings over actual performance, but hey...do your thang bruh...

Case dismissed...

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I NEVER said that Johnson deserved it more, I was using your flawed reasoning. I corrected myself, after saying that JJ should have gone, I recanted that statement because I feel that Allen has played at a high level over a longer period of time...DURING THE SEASON. Sentiments you shared. YOU CHANGED your opinion to suit the Duncan/Love debate, because you were faced with the choice of either denouncing your opinion on Duncan or on Johnson. You chose Johnson and called Allen and Johnson "interchangeable". Which is laughable. You were adamant that Johnson had no business being in LA for the game.

Of course, you don't see the reason to continue a conversation that shouldn't have been had. And you just exposed yourself as a hypocrite. Let me explain to you why...

Initially you said Allen deserved in more than Johnson who "absolutely" shouldn't go....
You based that on what???? IN SEASON PERFORMANCE...namely your perception that Johnson has not played up to an allstar level based on his poor start, no regard to the rest of the year (I believe you looked at a spreadsheet to come to your conclusion personally...).

Then you say Johnson deserves it more, but give no credible reason why he deserves to be there...none

So why is Johnson more deserving than Allen? Is it because he is a better player? Johnson was a better player before the season started. So why did you use Johnson's bad start to say that he is "absolutely not" deserving of an allstar bid. He is better than any shooting guard in the East not named Wade right???

Why critique Johnson's performance and not Duncan's? Allen is having a better season than Johnson, at least offensively. Love is having a MUCH better season than Duncan, not even close. You were only ready to correct your inconsistency when I pointed out that you were not using the same criteria across the board. Point being you actually used PERFORMANCE to make the decision with everybody but Duncan. Now when shown that...you flip flopped...lol. By the way, Johnson and Allen are NOT interchangeable. Johnson is clearly the better player when both are at their best.

So yeah, no need to continue the conversation, just showing your inconsistencies, and your hypocrisies. The whole purpose was to show you that you are wrong in how you analyzed Duncan and Love. If you want to analyze the whole damn league that way, go ahead, you are going to look awfully foolish picking your allstars based on positional rankings over actual performance, but hey...do your thang bruh...

Case dismissed...

Love vs. Duncan is not Johnson vs. Allen. By the way, neither Allen or Johnson deserve to go in my opinion. I feel as though both Horford and Smith deserve to go more. But it's fair to say that if I would have to pick the better player right now between Johnson and Allen that I would give a tiny edge to Johnson (though they are interchangeable, indeed).

And I did critique Duncan's performance. He really can't move laterally and lacks any kind of explosiveness. Yet he is still a more viable offensive player and is one of the league's best defenders, while Love is below average in that category. Duncan would have the capability of scoring about 20 points per-game even in less minutes than Love in that Minnesota system, and would be close to 10 rebounds. Head-to-head, this is not a contest. Despite age. Duncan>Love just like he's a better player than Roy Hibbert.

We are talking about a guy putting up decent stats on a 1st place team vs. a guy putting up better stats on a bottom 3 team in the NBA. But the stats have a story behind them, which I have already explained.

Hell, head-to-head, LaMarcus Aldridge is a better player than Kevin Love.

I like what Duncan likes more on a performance basis more than Love; with Allen and Johnson- both guys benefit from their teammates to get most of their offense. Johnson started the year shooting a horrible percentage and Jamal Crawford was their best perimeter player. But now I'll give it to Johnson because he is hitting more shots and creates for others better than Allen can for his team. Still, I say Duncan definitely deserves it over either of those guys because of the fact that he is still a great defensive player and rebounder. Love pretty much falls in the Johnson/Allen category for me.

You are yet to refutiate that Duncan is better than Love because it's impossible. The per-game stats route doesn't really work.

Your mistake is assuming that my reasoning is based on simple one-dimensional analysis when it's not. You're actually the one guilty of that.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

In my opinion, here's who deserved to go the most in the Eastern Conference:

1. LeBron James
2. Dwight Howard
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Derrick Rose
5. Amare Stoudemire
6. Paul Pierce
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Rajon Rondo
9. Al Horford
10. Chris Bosh
11. Carlos Boozer
12. Josh Smith
----
13. Joe Johnson
14. Ray Allen
15. Andre Iguodala
16. Danny Granger
17-20. (gets pretty hazy)

 

[houheffna]

Love vs. Duncan is not Johnson vs. Allen. By the way, neither Allen or Johnson deserve to go in my opinion. I feel as though both Horford and Smith deserve to go more. But it's fair to say that if I would have to pick the better player right now between Johnson and Allen that I would give a tiny edge to Johnson (though they are interchangeable, indeed).

And I did critique Duncan's performance. He really can't move laterally and lacks any kind of explosiveness. Yet he is still a more viable offensive player and is one of the league's best defenders, while Love is below average in that category. Duncan would have the capability of scoring about 20 points per-game even in less minutes than Love in that Minnesota system, and would be close to 10 rebounds. Head-to-head, this is not a contest. Despite age. Duncan>Love just like he's a better player than Roy Hibbert.

We are talking about a guy putting up decent stats on a 1st place team vs. a guy putting up better stats on a bottom 3 team in the NBA. But the stats have a story behind them, which I have already explained.

Hell, head-to-head, LaMarcus Aldridge is a better player than Kevin Love.

I like what Duncan likes more on a performance basis more than Love; with Allen and Johnson- both guys benefit from their teammates to get most of their offense. Johnson started the year shooting a horrible percentage and Jamal Crawford was their best perimeter player. But now I'll give it to Johnson because he is hitting more shots and creates for others better than Allen can for his team. Still, I say Duncan definitely deserves it over either of those guys because of the fact that he is still a great defensive player and rebounder. Love pretty much falls in the Johnson/Allen category for me.

You are yet to refutiate that Duncan is better than Love because it's impossible. The per-game stats route doesn't really work.

Your mistake is assuming that my reasoning is based on simple one-dimensional analysis when it's not. You're actually the one guilty of that.

You said that both Johnson and Allen are interchangeable. You are wrong and let me show you why...

Allen's offense consist of 81% jumpshots of which 77% are assisted...
Johnson's offense consist of 82% jumpshots of which 45% are assisted...

You can draw whatever conclusions you want as to how their games are similar...good luck with that...but I will help you a little...Johnson gets a lot of his points from isos. Always have since he has been a Hawk. That is his game, he creates off the dribble. He can do what Ray Allen does, though not as well. He is a better defender and ball handler than Ray Allen. Ray Allen cannot do what Johnson does therefore they are NOT interchangeable. Johnson is a top 5 shooting guard in the league, Allen is nowhere near that. You said you don't watch Johnson play...and based on what you stated about Johnson, I believe you.

That said, why do you continue to bring up Johnson's poor start at the beginning of the season? Duncan has played poorly himself at times this season, he is not the main guy like Johnson so it is not noticed.

I have said that Duncan is the better skilled player,...however, based on what has been done this season, Love is having a much better year...much better, its not close.
You can look at each player, game by game and Love has had 3 TIMES as many outstanding games as Duncan...that is ridiculous. Its not an argument. So who is the better player in the 2010-2011 season? Love...hands down. The difference in actual performance is great. Offensively? Its not close. Love is shooting more shots at a similar percentage, plus 40+% from 3pt, plus 87% from the line. Those numbers dwarf Duncan's numbers. So in the words of Stacey King "STOP IT". Duncan can play better defense than Love, so what? Love destroys him in every other category. Love is offensively more productive than Duncan this season. I have used "this season" so many times, but you summarily dismiss it.

If Love had done the same thing for the Bulls, people would be crying bloody murder if Garnett got in ahead of him. And Garnett is having a better year than Duncan. And I believe you broke down each player's abilities, and it seemed that

 

[houheffna]

In my opinion, here's who deserved to go the most in the Eastern Conference:

1. LeBron James
2. Dwight Howard
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Derrick Rose
5. Amare Stoudemire
6. Paul Pierce
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Rajon Rondo
9. Al Horford
10. Chris Bosh
11. Carlos Boozer
12. Josh Smith
----
13. Joe Johnson
14. Ray Allen
15. Andre Iguodala
16. Danny Granger
17-20. (gets pretty hazy)

So Al Horford and Josh Smith are better players than Joe Johnson? GTFOH!!! If you haven't watch the team play, how can you make that assessment. And by the way, you are dead wrong. Which further shits on your argument.

 

[Shakes]

Ray Allen creates his own offense, it's just because he does it by running around screens rather than by dribbling the ball it shows up as an assist to Rondo.

 

[houheffna]

Ray Allen creates his own offense, it's just because he does it by running around screens rather than by dribbling the ball it shows up as an assist to Rondo.

Those screens are set by teammates, and Rondo adeptly getting Allen the ball where he is most comfortable. So I wouldn't say Allen creates his own offense. Those are set plays. Isolations means one guy improvising, one on one. Rose does it a lot.

 

[Shakes]

I'm not saying Ray Allen is an isolation player, but I do think he creates the shot, or at least should get a lot of credit for it. It's not a thing everyone can do. Look at the lack of success that Korver had when the Bulls tried it.

 

[houheffna]

I'm not saying Ray Allen is an isolation player, but I do think he creates the shot, or at least should get a lot of credit for it. It's not a thing everyone can do. Look at the lack of success that Korver had when the Bulls tried it.

Korver still does it. He doesn't do it as much as he did in Utah...but again, those are plays that are constructed at times also, it is dependent upon other players' movement and even then, somebody has to get the player the ball. Allen doesn't go and get the ball, but my point is that Allen and Johnson don't play the same way, don't have the same skills, and are definitely not interchangeable. Allen depends on Rondo much more than Johnson depends on Bibby, Crawford or Teague. If anything, those guys play off of him.