All Things Carlos Zambrano Discussion Thread

[dabynsky]

I can make the same argument and say "The Cubs would be 17 games back if a poodle owned the team", but that doesn't mean a poodle would be a more effective owner than Ricketts.

If Selig had allowed Cuban to purchase the Cubs, I'm pretty sure three things would be different: 1) Cuban's first move wouldn't have been to ask the State for $300 million for stadium renovations and neighborhood improvement...come on. 2) Cuban most likely would have gotten rid of Hendry. He would have had a person in place to take over when he purchased the team. That Ricketts didn't do his homework before buying the team is inexcusable. 3) Cuban probably would have had a different manager. Maybe I'm being unfair, but Quade has been ineffective. His hiring was mind-boggling. Our farm system is has been one of the worst in the majors for several years, so lets hire our manager from one of our farm teams. Great.

Yes the argument isn't that Ricketts is a great owner. The point is that unless the person owning this team was willing to spend his way out of the past few years it was going to end up bad these years. Your points 2 and 3 are things that I've acknowledged would have been good moves likely made by Cuban at this point and failure of Tom Ricketts at this point. Number 1 might not have been Cuban's first move, but public financing of stadiums is how business is done. It probably would have been handled better, but Wrigley either needs major renovations or a new stadium would be built. Whoever owned this team was going to ask for public money to do either.

 

[dabynsky]

I'm contending Ricketts doesn't have enough resources to get the Cubs competitive.

And that might be true, but as of right now he is providing the resources to be competitive.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Yes the argument isn't that Ricketts is a great owner. The point is that unless the person owning this team was willing to spend his way out of the past few years it was going to end up bad these years. Your points 2 and 3 are things that I've acknowledged would have been good moves likely made by Cuban at this point and failure of Tom Ricketts at this point. Number 1 might not have been Cuban's first move, but public financing of stadiums is how business is done. It probably would have been handled better, but Wrigley either needs major renovations or a new stadium would be built. Whoever owned this team was going to ask for public money to do either.

I'm not arguing that Ricketts is a terrible owner either, honestly at this point im still a little ambivalent

but:

A). I wouldnt say he needs to clean house, but keeping hendry was a pretty bad move. In return this means that quade will most likely stay on the team as well. You can blame Hendry and Quade and the rest of the personnel besides the owner for development issues and bringing and overpaying players, but at the end of the day its Ricketts that decides the personnel and has the money..and the situation is not as different as you think on the south side

B). I think it has been addressed before, but Rickett's doesnt have necessarily a high net worth....i.e. the cubs may have to take a payroll cut because of a financial hole they are kind of in and decreasing revenue from this year(atleast so far IIRC)

C). This doesnt really follow the same argument direction the other two did, but i do like that ricketts is investing in the prospects market,especially international

cant stress how important it is to make those long term investments to build a team(thats partly why i am not 100% against ricketts right now...some of these investments dont pay off until later...)

 

[brett05]

I think the only difference between Cuban and Ricketts at this point would have been changes made to the front office. That would be an improvement, but I don't think that would have changed the results on the field up to this point any.

And everything Cuban has said about acquiring a baseball team has been along the lines of that he wouldn't spend like the Yankees, and that you have to build a strong organization. etc. Sound familar?

Cuban had to say that otherwise the owners wouldn't vote him in. Spending tons makes it harder for the small/mid market teams to compete.

 

[dabynsky]

Code you and I have basically being saying the same thing a different way for quite a while on the topic. I don't think Ricketts is a great owner. I don't even think he is a good owner. The payroll may very well drop a significant amount next year. If that does then my opinion changes drastically. However, I don't see the moves they've made that look like this team is in dire financial straits at the moment such investing in the draft and international free agents with basically an open checkbook and when choosing to pay the majority of salaries of two players to get back a couple of prospects instead of just dumping their salaries.

 

[dabynsky]

Cuban had to say that otherwise the owners wouldn't vote him in. Spending tons makes it harder for the small/mid market teams to compete.

That may very well be the case, but whatever you think of Cuban he is a businessman. I don't think he would take a loss on the Cubs, and given some of the limiting constraints of Wrigley I don't think the payroll could go much higher and still make a profit. I don't know all the numbers and I don't know how much Cuban was willing to take a loss. So the discussion is rather moot. It is possible that Cuban would spend like the Yankees , and if he did this team could have been competitive this season.

 

[dabynsky]

No, it was a public relations disaster of mammoth proportions. I have never seen anything like it.

The State of Illinois is in its worst financial shape in history, and some billionaire's son purchases the Chicago Cubs and the very first public move he makes is to sneak $300 million of taxpayer money from under their noses. The way Ricketts went about it was sickening. He said he was going to match the State dollar for dollar for neighborhood improvements...after the State gave him the $300 million that it had originally earmarked for neighborhood improvements so that Ricketts could instead use that money on stadium renovation.

Slimeball.

I agree that he handled it in the worst possible way, and that he has been inept at public relations to say the least. I was just disputing the idea that another owner wouldn't have asked for public money in some form at some point to either fix Wrigley or build a new stadium.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Code you and I have basically being saying the same thing a different way for quite a while on the topic. I don't think Ricketts is a great owner. I don't even think he is a good owner. The payroll may very well drop a significant amount next year. If that does then my opinion changes drastically. However, I don't see the moves they've made that look like this team is in dire financial straits at the moment such investing in the draft and international free agents with basically an open checkbook and when choosing to pay the majority of salaries of two players to get back a couple of prospects instead of just dumping their salaries.

maybe ricketts makes prospecting his top priority?:shrug:

frankly im not 100% sure about the payroll cuts either..although i've heard that the situation might turn into that because of the cubs' debt

although i thought this article was interesting(but it is dated a couple of months ago)

Debt Won't Stop Chicago Cubs, Ricketts Says

despite the article, i still cant be sure that ricketts is really looking to get fielder or another high profile guy until i actually see the personnel doing so..

i think the biggest tell will be how ricketts and the personnel deal with some of the really big contracts(like zambrano and soriano)

another thing, the cuban comparison is very hypothetical...i wonder if lack of baseball ownership experience would be in a issue(i'm sure he has a general idea of how to direct a team..but its not the same as the NBA regarding the market and player salary policies, as well as the prospect system...i guess no salary cap may be the biggest difference)

i would think/hope, though, that cuban may be a better owner than ricketts strictly judging on the fact that he would most likely not flirt with debt problems(though ricketts MAY spend despite that..cant really expand on that too much) and would most likely have a more competent personnel in place...i think the real question mark for cuban is what exactly will he be investing in? prospects? free agents? both in some moderation?

 

[Jntg4]

????

One, Cuban never owned an NBA team until he purchased the Mavs. And he immediately made them competitive. Two, how does one acquire "baseball ownership experience"? If the MLB limited its new owners to those who previously owned MLB baseball teams, then they wouldn't have enough owners to have a league.

Cuban isn't an idiot. Owning a baseball team isn't rocket science.

Tell that to this guy...

Spoiler

 

[Captain Obvious]

stupidity? I guess you celebrated a regular season 97 win team right? dope.hey as long as they win the regular season, thats all the matters. stop trying to be like poodski, he is intelligent, and you..........well you are pretty dumb. poser.

Cubans net worth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ricketts 500 million dollar hole moron. god you are worthless as a poster.

Yes, I am jumping for joy at the whole 97 win season. I am just so excited that we went 3 and out in the playoffs.

Trying to be like Poodski? How have I "tried to be like Poodski?"

I'm not disputing Cuban's net worth, but that doesn't automatically equal that he would be doing a better job than Ricketts. I agree with Dabs that he would probably have gotten rid of Hendry sooner, although I think Hendry is out the door after this season. However, I don't see any way that he would have put as much importance on the development of players and isn't that what we want to see?

Anyone who hangs their hat on a regular season 97 win team is flat out idiotic. Atleast poodski wanted the championship. but CO, 2008 was a title/banner year for the cubs. Sorry, crap shoot (at times) or not, the WS title is the most important, not the regular season standings......especially when comparing the AL of that year with the angels and rays and other AL teams who had a MUCH harder schedule than the cubs. w/l is so face value, you have to look at the schedule, who they played, when they played them to make any sort of judgement on a team.

Yes, I didn't want a championship. That's exactly it.

I concur, the WS title is most important. But to say that 08 was worthless is just not true. We were the best team that year and that is something, albeit not a WS title, it's still a positive sign.

I agree, W-L is so face value, which is why I was not using it to say that the Cubs were the best team in 08. Pythagorean W-L, our outstanding run differential, & the actual W-L-pythagorean W-L differential all point to us being the best team.

dude..cmon just because his opinion is a little different than yours doesnt mean he's stupid

Double Standard much?

the playoffs arent totally a crapshoot...but even in a 7 game series..literally any team can win it in the right situation due to the streaky nature of the game..not to mention which teams have good pitching

that's exactly what i'm saying. The Cubs didn't even get a 7 game series, we got a 5 game series. It's such a toss up in such a short series.

i still think its a disappointment that we went out like that after such a great year..and that was pretty much the window of opportunity(atleast when you look at some of these declining vets) closing on us




no one said he should clean house first thing..and he hasnt...that doesnt mean changes shouldnt be made though

i'm not really attacking ricketts..but overall i am not a fan...i especially dont like keeping hendry

cuban has a higher worth and would have not caused the cubs to be in the financial hole they are in..

Nothing that Ricketts has done has led us to believe that money is a problem. I see this as irrelevant.

but there's a good possibility that the cub's hands will be tied come this offseason because of ricketts

None of Ricketts' actions have led us to think this is true, I don't see why it would become an issue now.l

Wow, does CO honestly think Ricketts is doing better than Mark Cuban could have

Do you really think that we would be that much better??

Cuban took the laughing stock Mavericks to an NBA title in a decade. Should have had 2, but he made the Mavericks relevant, not only with his antics, which the Cubs could use, and the money he spent.

I would be willing to bet that in a decade the Cubs will have a WS title of their own.

Antics are irrelevant. And Ricketts has definitely been providing the funding for this team. I don't see what Cuban would have done(other than maybe the front office shuffle) that would make this team better. And I really don't think that a change in the front office would do much in such a short time frame.

Cuban>>>>>>>>>>>Ricketts.

Cuban turned the Mavs around right away. Mavs were

Through antics, and deals, he made the Mavs relevant again right away. The Cubs have gone down the crapper since Ricketts bought the team, because they don't have money to spend to keep people away. Cuban does. I'd be more happier to support Cuban's Cubs than Ricketts.

Cuban acts like a Cubs fan, Ricketts claims he does. :rolling::rolling::rolling:

You're really comparing the MLB to the NBA? Apples and Oranges.

The Cubs were headed down the crapper anyway, that's not Ricketts' fault. They don't have the money to spend? Are you kidding me? Have you not seen how much money they are spending on this team?

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

????

One, Cuban never owned an NBA team until he purchased the Mavs. And he immediately made them competitive. Two, how does one acquire "baseball ownership experience"? If the MLB limited its new owners to those who previously owned MLB baseball teams, then they wouldn't have enough owners to have a league.

Cuban isn't an idiot. Owning a baseball team isn't rocket science.

never said it was, thus my little note in the parenthesis saying that he probably has a good idea of how to run an MLB team

just a thought regarding the transition from the NBA to MLB

either way i do think that cuban would be a good baseball owner..would be interesting to see how he would manage a team like the cubs

 

[Jntg4]

Yes, I am jumping for joy at the whole 97 win season. I am just so excited that we went 3 and out in the playoffs.

Trying to be like Poodski? How have I "tried to be like Poodski?"

I'm not disputing Cuban's net worth, but that doesn't automatically equal that he would be doing a better job than Ricketts. I agree with Dabs that he would probably have gotten rid of Hendry sooner, although I think Hendry is out the door after this season. However, I don't see any way that he would have put as much importance on the development of players and isn't that what we want to see?


Yes, I didn't want a championship. That's exactly it.

I concur, the WS title is most important. But to say that 08 was worthless is just not true. We were the best team that year and that is something, albeit not a WS title, it's still a positive sign.

I agree, W-L is so face value, which is why I was not using it to say that the Cubs were the best team in 08. Pythagorean W-L, our outstanding run differential, & the actual W-L-pythagorean W-L differential all point to us being the best team.



Double Standard much?



that's exactly what i'm saying. The Cubs didn't even get a 7 game series, we got a 5 game series. It's such a toss up in such a short series.

i still think its a disappointment that we went out like that after such a great year..and that was pretty much the window of opportunity(atleast when you look at some of these declining vets) closing on us




no one said he should clean house first thing..and he hasnt...that doesnt mean changes shouldnt be made though

i'm not really attacking ricketts..but overall i am not a fan...i especially dont like keeping hendry





Nothing that Ricketts has done has led us to believe that money is a problem. I see this as irrelevant.



None of Ricketts' actions have led us to think this is true, I don't see why it would become an issue now.l


Do you really think that we would be that much better??



I would be willing to bet that in a decade the Cubs will have a WS title of their own.

Antics are irrelevant. And Ricketts has definitely been providing the funding for this team. I don't see what Cuban would have done(other than maybe the front office shuffle) that would make this team better. And I really don't think that a change in the front office would do much in such a short time frame.



You're really comparing the MLB to the NBA? Apples and Oranges.

The Cubs were headed down the crapper anyway, that's not Ricketts' fault. They don't have the money to spend? Are you kidding me? Have you not seen how much money they are spending on this team?

Still weren't the best team, I'd take both the Angels, the Rays and maybe the Red Sox over us that year.

 

[Rice Cube]

Still weren't the best team, I'd take both the Angels, the Rays and maybe the Red Sox over us that year.

I think they were the best team over the regular season, but the postseason is a whole new bag. They crapped out in the three most important games of the year. That's baseball, unfortunately.

 

[Jntg4]

I think they were the best team over the regular season, but the postseason is a whole new bag. They crapped out in the three most important games of the year. That's baseball, unfortunately.

I was just talking regular season as well...

 

[Rice Cube]

I was just talking regular season as well...

Ah. I was only talking NL. I don't think they rocked interleague in 2008 anyway.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Double Standard much?



that's exactly what i'm saying. The Cubs didn't even get a 7 game series, we got a 5 game series. It's such a toss up in such a short series.

i still think its a disappointment that we went out like that after such a great year..and that was pretty much the window of opportunity(atleast when you look at some of these declining vets) closing on us




no one said he should clean house first thing..and he hasnt...that doesnt mean changes shouldnt be made though

i'm not really attacking ricketts..but overall i am not a fan...i especially dont like keeping hendry





Nothing that Ricketts has done has led us to believe that money is a problem. I see this as irrelevant.



None of Ricketts' actions have led us to think this is true, I don't see why it would become an issue now.l


Do you really think that we would be that much better??



I would be willing to bet that in a decade the Cubs will have a WS title of their own.

Antics are irrelevant. And Ricketts has definitely been providing the funding for this team. I don't see what Cuban would have done(other than maybe the front office shuffle) that would make this team better. And I really don't think that a change in the front office would do much in such a short time frame.



You're really comparing the MLB to the NBA? Apples and Oranges.

The Cubs were headed down the crapper anyway, that's not Ricketts' fault. They don't have the money to spend? Are you kidding me? Have you not seen how much money they are spending on this team?

I'm not arguing that Ricketts is a terrible owner either, honestly at this point im still a little ambivalent

but:

A). I wouldnt say he needs to clean house, but keeping hendry was a pretty bad move. In return this means that quade will most likely stay on the team as well. You can blame Hendry and Quade and the rest of the personnel besides the owner for development issues and bringing and overpaying players, but at the end of the day its Ricketts that decides the personnel and has the money..and the situation is not as different as you think on the south side

B). I think it has been addressed before, but Rickett's doesnt have necessarily a high net worth....i.e. the cubs may have to take a payroll cut because of a financial hole they are kind of in and decreasing revenue from this year(atleast so far IIRC)... although ricketts is spending like there is no debt...i wouldnt say this is irrelevant if this debt issue lingers on because of a high payroll and overspending

C). This doesnt really follow the same argument direction the other two did, but i do like that ricketts is investing in the prospects market,especially international

cant stress how important it is to make those long term investments to build a team(thats partly why i am not 100% against ricketts right now...some of these investments dont pay off until later...)

if you noticed..its basically the same post i made earlier just made some modifications to it

:yeah:

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Yes, I am jumping for joy at the whole 97 win season. I am just so excited that we went 3 and out in the playoffs.


I'm not disputing Cuban's net worth, but that doesn't automatically equal that he would be doing a better job than Ricketts. I agree with Dabs that he would probably have gotten rid of Hendry sooner, although I think Hendry is out the door after this season. However, I don't see any way that he would have put as much importance on the development of players and isn't that what we want to see?

why do you say that? isnt part of the development of the players dependent on the personnel the owner hires?

I concur, the WS title is most important. But to say that 08 was worthless is just not true. We were the best team that year and that is something, albeit not a WS title, it's still a positive sign.

not arguing it wasnt a good season, but how is it a positive sign when from 08 until down we were on a downward spiral

I agree, W-L is so face value, which is why I was not using it to say that the Cubs were the best team in 08. Pythagorean W-L, our outstanding run differential, & the actual W-L-pythagorean W-L differential all point to us being the best team.

Arguably the Cubs were one of the best teams in the league along with the Angels and Rays(still argue they probably had a little better competition in the AL)...anyway...being the best team in the league only makes it more of a disappointment that we got swept in the first round

not saying it wasnt a good season..but the ending was a big disappointment

Double Standard much?

not really...i dont like name calling in general in an argument unless someone really pisses me off or is completely offbase or is Lex L

 

[Jntg4]

Ah. I was only talking NL. I don't think they rocked interleague in 2008 anyway.

Well if you want to use interleague to measure how good we were then the Rays were way better than us (swept us), and the White Sox equaled us. And we lost a series to either Baltimore or Toronto IIRC.

 

[Rice Cube]

Well if you want to use interleague to measure how good we were then the Rays were way better than us (swept us), and the White Sox equaled us. And we lost a series to either Baltimore or Toronto IIRC.

I don't think the Cubs were better than their AL counterparts. But they did have the best record in the NL which was pretty cool. They just sucked in the playoffs. It happens. That's baseball. They could just as probably gone to the World Series and won it all. But that would just make them still the best team in the NL, not in all of baseball. The World Series champion has a claim to being the best team that year, but that's sort of subjective; more accurately, the World Series champion is the team that got hot at the right time and won the 11 games necessary to hoist the trophy. Sometimes they happen to also be the best team. Sometimes they just got lucky, but even the best team needs a bit of luck.

 

[Uman85]

zambrano's First Comments Since Friday Night Fiasco

CSN EXCLUSIVE: Big Z on Friday's events, future

Zambrano talks about the events leading up to his ejection:

"Why would I be hitting Chipper [Jones] that night? Chipper is the main guy on the Braves, and a I threw some curves inside because I wanted to get them to extend their arms because they were too comfortable. I have to pitch inside, and the pitch was a cutter. If I want to hit someone I hit him.I think I have good target when I want to hit someone. And [Jim] Edmonds can talk about that."

Did he really say he wanted to retire?

"I did want to retire, I feel bad with myself, not with the Cubs, not with the organization. I feel bad with me, with the performance, with what I am doing or I was doing in the season it’s frustrating. It's frustrating every time I go to the mound and I give up eight runs. It's not me, and I want to do my best."


And about wanting to pitch for the Cubs:

"Of course man, hey the Cubs have been to me like my family. The organization is my family. I've seen people go and come and I'm still there.

"I want to keep pitching for the Cubs. It was a moment of frustration Friday night, and I pitched so bad I wanted to retire, you know, I don't want to be making $18 million and pitch like crap."