Are bears fans overrating pace?

[BearFanJohn]

Look at his terrible record

Factually, impossible to argue big picture that he hasn’t gotten the job done. Whether or not one wants to take into consideration what talent he had to work with and J. Fox is up to them. But even that, too, is to some degree is Pace’s fault, too.

But looking forward, not back, one might conclude he has the ship pointed in the right direction. He has done well in the last two drafts and this year’s FA period was likely one of the best in the league. But record wise, yep, he’s sucked. As a fan I’d like to think things are going in the right direction. MT works out and in the long run he’ll look pretty good. Of course, if MT busts, Pace’s fate is sealed.

 

[Bear Pride]

Look at his terrible record

Not buying it. Doesn't tell whole story. High School offense and most injuries in last two years. Pace underrated. Dicklicker.

 

[nc0gnet0]

My take on Pace is still incomplete, but I like his approach. When he took over this team, it was a complete mess we all know that. It was an old roster filled with ageing vets with bloated contracts, and Jay Cutler. He could have done what previous GM's did which was try to keep the roster in tact bringing in overvalued FA's and maintaining 6-10 or 7-9 records for the foreseeable future, or do what he did which was blow it up and start over. This meant getting rid of some players that were beloved by fans. That doesn't always sit well with meatballs. Sure keeping Forte and Marshall could have meant 1-2 more wins a season, but it also means no Howard, no Cohen most likely.

you do realize, doing so would not have hurt the bears one iota in terms of building "through the draft". I'm not aware of any of these old vets that were traded away for any significant draft pick. And the overpaying FA's argument is thrown right out the window as soon as you make mention of Mike Glennon.

While his FA signings have not been great, they have not hurt the long term development and growth of the roster. Each FA signing was made with a way to get out of the contract after 1-2 years without much damage. If he brought in 10 FA's with question marks and hit on 1-2 (Akiem Hicks, Prince Amukamaura) that is success. Lets be honest, did anyone here really think Glennon was the QB of the future for the Bears? Did he overpay for him...Of Course, but it was a one year flier. If Glennon surprised everyone, you let him play out the contract, if not, bye bye. The point is, typically FA's are FA's for a reason. Teams did not see value for what a player is asking. It is EXTREMELY rare to find an undervalued player in FA.

Is it? I can think of several, and you already named one right in this thread....Akeem Hicks. Do you think Pace was purposely tanking? Why is paying MG 20 mil not a bad thing, yet signing any other big ticket FA bad? this argument makes no sense.

As far as the draft goes, I feel he has had some solid draft picks for the most part mixing team need and BPA. He has his share of hits with players like Howard, Cohen, Goldman, Whitehair, Jackson...etc. Kevin White has been the big glaring exception and to me, it is hard to blame Pace when it has been injury that has made him a bust thus far. You can make the argument that there were players at other positions of need on the board at that point in the draft and Pace created the hole at WR by sending Marshall packing and not resigning Jeffery. Those are fair arguments, but this was not going to be turned around overnight and I feel Pace saw White with more athleticism and upside potential than anyone available in that draft.

White is a bust, Floyd, at least they get some very good play out of him, but those that criticized the pick questioned his durability. If this continues to be an issue, then I am not sure I know I grade that pick. Trubisky is a great unknown, but I wonder how those that are fawning all over him would rate him had he gone to another team, and had the same stat line, say, if the Browns had taken him? Shaheen is another great unknown. I cannot call either of these a bust, but I can't call them a hit yet either, so paces pass or fail grade depends a lot on these two. Yes, pace has hit on some gems in later rounds, but is that enough to make up for the fact if the 2017 class doen't pan out as everyone hopes?

Overall, I feel this team is light years better than when he took over and pointed in the right direction. Would I have liked to have seen more wins along the way, sure, who wouldn't, but not at the expense of building a strong foundation and deep roster.

So many unknowns, not all of these will be hits, so time will tell. You just can't call Pace a success as of yet, but he could turn things around.

 

[nc0gnet0]

The fact of the matter is Pace stumbled out of the gate.

 

[xer0h0ur]

Thank you impartial Lions fan. Said no one ever.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Thank you impartial Lions fan. Said no one ever.

Yawn. Sorry I don't wear rose colored glass's like you, butt hurt Bears fan.

 

[Starion]

The fact of the matter is Pace stumbled out of the gate.

It's called a rebuild. Do you dispute they were effectively tanking directly or indirectly by unloading older players and big contracts right out of the gate?

As luck would have it, Fox's history of league-leading injuries followed him to CHI and contributed further.


I love when Negs trash Pace for hiring Fox when he ended up being the perfect lame-duck bridge coach for a rebuild. There were never any real expectations of success "out of the gate". Played it uber safe and cleaned up the locker room while losing gracefully. Fox brought good assistants in at least, but did suck. No sense ruining an up & comer like Nagy by throwing a guy into a shit roster.

 

[Alpha Male]

It's called a rebuild. Do you dispute they were effectively tanking directly or indirectly by unloading older players and big contracts right out of the gate?

As luck would have it, Fox's history of league-leading injuries followed him to CHI and contributed further.


I love when Negs trash Pace for hiring Fox when he ended up being the perfect lame-duck bridge coach for a rebuild. There were never any real expectations of success "out of the gate". Played it uber safe and cleaned up the locker room while losing gracefully. Fox brought good assistants in at least, but did suck. No sense ruining an up & comer like Nagy by throwing a guy into a shit roster.

That's not what the expectation was last year. They were supposed to field a competitive team heading into this season. and its pace's fault for not firing fox a year earlier when he had a perfect opportunity instead of wasting one year.

 

[SugarWalls]

That's not what the expectation was last year. They were supposed to field a competitive team heading into this season. and its pace's fault for not firing fox a year earlier when he had a perfect opportunity instead of wasting one year.

I don’t think those were really the expectations for last year. I certainly didn’t have those expectations last year. People will point to pace or the media saying this has ‘taken longer than expected.’ What are they supposed to come out and say the truth? This is a rebuild and the bears are going to suck for some time.

Trubisky didn’t even start the season, and he hypothetically wasn’t supposed to start at all. When your franchise QB is on the bench what exactly does that tell you about expectations for the season? It certainly doesn’t scream ‘competitive’ to me.......

Fox came in and bridged the gap for Nagy. Fox was conservative and played to not get blown out more so than playing to win. He did his job. Now it’s Nagy’s job to go and win games.

 

[nc0gnet0]

I don’t think those were really the expectations for last year. I certainly didn’t have those expectations last year. People will point to pace or the media saying this has ‘taken longer than expected.’ What are they supposed to come out and say the truth? This is a rebuild and the bears are going to suck for some time.

Trubisky didn’t even start the season, and he hypothetically wasn’t supposed to start at all. When your franchise QB is on the bench what exactly does that tell you about expectations for the season? It certainly doesn’t scream ‘competitive’ to me.......

Fox came in and bridged the gap for Nagy. Fox was conservative and played to not get blown out more so than playing to win. He did his job. Now it’s Nagy’s job to go and win games.

Pace's first draft was an aberration, his FA class was even worse. If you don't call that stumbling out of the gate, I don't know what to tell you. Shedding veteran talent, just for the sake of shedding talent makes zero sense. Had they picked up any significant draft value in the process, that would have been one thing, but they didn't. He woefully neglected the O-line in 2016, but had his A$$ saved when Sitton fell into his lap. He did the same last year with the WR core, letting Alshon leave. If shedding veteran talent and doing a "rebuild" (and secretly tanking) as you say was his goal all along, why didn't he trade AJ the year before, and get something in return? But hey, you can always remedy the situation by doubling down on the injury bug and picking up a WR coming off an Achilles injury, for more money than it would have cost you to keep your own talent. You can spin-doctor it all you want, but those are the facts. And then there was the Mike Glennon fiasco. Sure, you can try to explain away each blunder individually, but when you look at the collective whole, this is a guy that was learning on the job, the proverbial GM with training wheels. The Bears will now be fielding 4 top ten draft picks, all from consecutive years. To date, the biggest contributor of those 4 has been Leonard Floyd, who himself has still missed at least 4 games in each of his seasons. A wide receiver who has managed to play a whopping 5 games in three years, and has managed to find himself on the IR every single effing year, A QB who started 12 games and managed just 7 TD's on 7 interceptions, and cost the Bears a two third round pics, plus a 4th just to move up one spot. Hopefully Smith will turn the tide this year. So yeah, maybe a magic fairy will fly over the Bears and sprinkle a little fairy dust, and Kevin White will magically manage to stay on the field this year, and at least be a serviceable WR, and Floyd (who to date is still the best of the bunch) manages to stay healthy and has a breakout year, Mitch tuns out the franchise QB everyone on this board already claims him to be, and Smith performs at rookie of the year levels. It could happen (cough cough). It is every bit as likely however, that White gets hurt again, or is so far down the depth list that he doesn't see much action, Floyd continues to struggle with his own injury issues, Mitch struggles with the new offense (a year wasted with Fox, this to is on Pace), and Smith, well, Smith just plays as a rookie LB plays, flashes of brilliance sprinkled with rookie mistakes. At best this is a C grade GM for the time being. Yes, he has the potential to turn things around, but he has the equal possibility for it to blow up in his face.

 

[SugarWalls]

Pace's first draft was an aberration, his FA class was even worse. If you don't call that stumbling out of the gate, I don't know what to tell you. Shedding veteran talent, just for the sake of shedding talent makes zero sense. Had they picked up any significant draft value in the process, that would have been one thing, but they didn't. He woefully neglected the O-line in 2016, but had his A$$ saved when Sitton fell into his lap. He did the same last year with the WR core, letting Alshon leave. If shedding veteran talent and doing a "rebuild" (and secretly tanking) as you say was his goal all along, why didn't he trade AJ the year before, and get something in return? You can spin-doctor it all you want, but those are the facts. And then there was the Mike Glennon fiasco. Sure, you can try to explain away each blunder individually, but when you look at the collective whole, this is a guy that was learning on the job, the proverbial GM with training wheels. The Bears will now be fielding 4 top ten draft picks, all from consecutive years. To date, the biggest contributor of those 4 has been Leonard Floyd, who himself has still missed at least 4 games in each of his seasons. A wide receiver who has managed to play a whopping 5 games in three years, and has managed to find himself on the IR every single effing year, A QB who started 12 games and managed just 7 TD's on 7 interceptions. Hopefully Smith will turn the tide this year. So yeah, maybe a magic fairy will fly over the Bears and sprinkle a little fairy dust, and Kevin White will magically manage to stay on the field this year, and at least be a serviceable WR, and Floyd (who to date is still the best of the bunch) manages to stay healthy and has a breakout year, Mitch tuns out the franchise QB everyone on this board already claims him to be, and Smith performs at rookie of the year levels. It could happen (cough cough). It is every bit as likely however, that White gets hurt again, or is so far down the depth list that he doesn't see much action, Floyd continues to struggle with his own injury issues, Mitch struggles with the new offense (a year wasted with Fox, this to is on Pace), and Smith, well, Smith just plays as a rookie LB plays, flashes of brilliance sprinkled with rookie mistakes. At best this is a C grade GM for the time being. Yes, he has the potential to turn things around, but he has the equal possibility for it to blow up in his face.

Who the hell was going to trade for an unhappy player on the franchise tag??? We saw very similar scenarios this off season with multiple players (WR's specifically), with the most pertinent player being Jarvis Landry. No trades got worked out. This just isn't really a likely scenario at all. Teams know you would be against the ropes trying to get rid of a guy that wanted out, and why would any team risk signing a player that could very easily walk the next year. Look at Kirk Cousins. This argument is bad.

Aside from each individual point you made about Pace, my point is that the expectations were low for last year. At least for me they were. People want to point to the time in years that Pace has been GM and tha'ts fine. It's better to sit and look at the roster and the coaching staff and make your own judgments on how the team will perform. Seems pretty damn blind to me to say "well its Pace's 3rd year so i expect a playoff team." Look at the roster the Bears have had. I have had 0 expectations for this team since the Trestman Year 2 debacle. Anyone that had any semblance of hope for a team with Jay Cutler as the QB was just being a blind homer. Obviously Glennon was not the solution at all since a QB was drafted with the #2 pick overall, and last year it would have taken an absolute miracle for a rookie QB to succeed in that position.

I can't point to a single reason that anyone would have thought the Bears were going to be a successful team over the last 3 years. Not a single fucking one. And that is the point that I was trying to make from the post you quoted.

This is the first year in quite some time that I have felt the Bears will be a competitive team.

 

[Spunky Porkstacker]

Yawn. Sorry I don't wear rose colored glass's like you, butt hurt Bears fan.

Why is your chirping done here, you should be on Lions board drinking the playoff koolaid. New coach, wonderful city wonderful tradition:trollbisky:, might even have a running game this year.

By the way you're killing it in that Westworld thread.

 

[ijustposthere]

Don't most people basically hate him? He doesn't seem to get that much love from what I've seen. Most people have given him credit for his moves the last two years, and rightfully so, but it's not like people are calling him the greatest GM of all time.

 

[Alpha Male]

Don't most people basically hate him? He doesn't seem to get that much love from what I've seen. Most people have given him credit for his moves the last two years, and rightfully so, but it's not like people are calling him the greatest GM of all time.

Playthrough has.

 

[Bearly]

That's Bear fan and not fans then.

How is that the norm? Many are simply willing to let this play out and understand his QB and HC selections need to deliver. Not wanting him gone yet is very different than over rating him. Team under-performed last year by a couple games but that can be directly attributed to the coaching staff. Injuries have been a factor but we had a couple/few games that were very winnable. It was difficult signing WRs and TEs to team that had shitty QBs and didn't like to throw until everyone knew they were going to. Pace shares that responsibility but it's obvious that there's a big change at how O FAs look at this team.


Hopefully it's a blessing in disguise and the earlier draft spots benefit us long term. He's averaged signing 3 new viable starters per FA period, possibly more this year. We could have used more with the team being so shitty, old and injured but if you plan to be sustainable with the draft, you don't want to give too many long term high dollar deals and FA need to want to be here. That's finally changed with our QG and HC. The roster has turned over 95% since Pace got here. If you don't believe it was an intentional rebuild, you're just not paying attention.

The team did under-perform last year and it's directly related to Fox and the QB position which Pace has some responsibility for but I don't think anyone believed Fox was Pace's long term solution to this. Dude is retirement age and hired to eat losses without losing the team. Obviously, not this many but really, that part is immaterial to what comes next.

 

[fatkid73]

you do realize, doing so would not have hurt the bears one iota in terms of building "through the draft". I'm not aware of any of these old vets that were traded away for any significant draft pick. And the overpaying FA's argument is thrown right out the window as soon as you make mention of Mike Glennon.

Simply not true. If you keep players that are not going to be part of your long term plan it makes it difficult to move on from those players. Having Forte on the roster and drafting Howard really means Howard does not get the reps and development. Keeping Marshall and drafting White, means White does not get his reps. Keeping Sitton and drafting Whitehair means limited reps for Whitehair. For each of the big name players Pace has cut, he had a plan in place to replace them. They have not all panned out, but he did make an honest attempt.


Is it? I can think of several, and you already named one right in this thread....Akeem Hicks. Do you think Pace was purposely tanking? Why is paying MG 20 mil not a bad thing, yet signing any other big ticket FA bad? this argument makes no sense.

These are the exception not the rule. I would guess if you looked at hits and misses in Free Agency, 2 out of 10 is about average.




White is a bust, Floyd, at least they get some very good play out of him, but those that criticized the pick questioned his durability. If this continues to be an issue, then I am not sure I know I grade that pick. Trubisky is a great unknown, but I wonder how those that are fawning all over him would rate him had he gone to another team, and had the same stat line, say, if the Browns had taken him? Shaheen is another great unknown. I cannot call either of these a bust, but I can't call them a hit yet either, so paces pass or fail grade depends a lot on these two. Yes, pace has hit on some gems in later rounds, but is that enough to make up for the fact if the 2017 class doen't pan out as everyone hopes?

I don't blame Pace for White's injuries. There was no injury history with him coming out.

Same goes for Floyd. No injury history at Georgia. The only concern I heard when he was drafted was his slight frame and some felt he would be a liability in the run game. He would only be a pass rusher because of his size.

Trubisky at this point is still an unknown. It is hard to evaluate him in Fox's offense. How much of his lack of numbers was Fox?

Finally Shaheen. Again, yes his numbers are pedestrian, but he did show flashes. Historically TE's don't come out and put up huge numbers in their rookie year especially ones that come from Ashland College. Heck, Greg Olsen only had 391yds and 2TD's his rookie year. And once again, John Fox

So many unknowns, not all of these will be hits, so time will tell. You just can't call Pace a success as of yet, but he could turn things around.

This I agree with. Time will write the rest of the story. My point is, the current roster is younger and has more potential than the one he inherited when he got here.

 

[Hawkeye OG]

Don't most people basically hate him? He doesn't seem to get that much love from what I've seen. Most people have given him credit for his moves the last two years, and rightfully so, but it's not like people are calling him the greatest GM of all time.

If you criticize Pace, you're labeled a Pace hater and if you praise him you are labeled a Pace fanboy. There is no in between here on this board. It's like people don't realize you can be critical of some of his moves/draft picks, etc and still understand what he is trying to accomplish. He took over in a very tough spot after a decade of poor draft choices and head coaching hires so he probably receives some unfair criticism, but that comes with the job. Bears also haven't seen very good on field results since his hire so that just adds fuel to the fire.

After 4 years, team seems to be moving in the right direction finally.

 

[ijustposthere]

Playthrough has.

Who?

 

[ijustposthere]

If you criticize Pace, you're labeled a Pace hater and if you praise him you are labeled a Pace fanboy. There is no in between here on this board. It's like people don't realize you can be critical of some of his moves/draft picks, etc and still understand what he is trying to accomplish. He took over in a very tough spot after a decade of poor draft choices and head coaching hires so he probably receives some unfair criticism, but that comes with the job. Bears also haven't seen very good on field results since his hire so that just adds fuel to the fire.

After 4 years, team seems to be moving in the right direction finally.

Seems like that is life in general. Everybody only wants to see in black and white instead of all the colors in between.

 

[nc0gnet0]

Who the hell was going to trade for an unhappy player on the franchise tag??? We saw very similar scenarios this off season with multiple players (WR's specifically), with the most pertinent player being Jarvis Landry. No trades got worked out. This just isn't really a likely scenario at all. Teams know you would be against the ropes trying to get rid of a guy that wanted out, and why would any team risk signing a player that could very easily walk the next year. Look at Kirk Cousins. This argument is bad.

Aside from each individual point you made about Pace, my point is that the expectations were low for last year. At least for me they were. People want to point to the time in years that Pace has been GM and tha'ts fine. It's better to sit and look at the roster and the coaching staff and make your own judgments on how the team will perform. Seems pretty damn blind to me to say "well its Pace's 3rd year so i expect a playoff team." Look at the roster the Bears have had. I have had 0 expectations for this team since the Trestman Year 2 debacle. Anyone that had any semblance of hope for a team with Jay Cutler as the QB was just being a blind homer. Obviously Glennon was not the solution at all since a QB was drafted with the #2 pick overall, and last year it would have taken an absolute miracle for a rookie QB to succeed in that position.

I can't point to a single reason that anyone would have thought the Bears were going to be a successful team over the last 3 years. Not a single fucking one. And that is the point that I was trying to make from the post you quoted.

This is the first year in quite some time that I have felt the Bears will be a competitive team.

And the fact still remains, he stumbled out of the gate.