Are things really that dire?

[mattb78]

So how many playmakers are you really looking at for a team capable of challenging?

Many ways to chop an onion and that is what makes the NFL great. KC is doing it through the air (or did the last few seasons), Tennessee via the ground, Cardinals and Ravens via mobile QBs, Buffalo has a great defense.

 

[mattb78]

Exactly zero if you have a top 5 NFL QB.

Just draft a top 5 QB and great OL. Got it. No problem. .

 

[Nelly]

Go position by position:

QB: Fields obviously.
RB: Herbert has already shown he's a capable back. Montgomery is a more complete and experienced back and I'd love to retain him but not at a high price.
TE: Kmet is coming on a bit. Still a work in progress. We've seen a bit from Jesse James and Jesper Horsted so maybe we bring those guys back?
WR: Mooney is a keeper, remains to be seen if he can turn into a Tyreek Hill or TY Hilton level player. The cupboard beyond this season is bare otherwise.
OT: Borom/Jenkins has some promise but there's not much to go on.
OG: Do we resign Daniels? And if so, for how much. People like to shit on Whitehair but he's solid and not going anywhere next year anyway, and would hopefully do better with a different...
C: Mustipher is just a backup level guy. Need a new starter here.

DE: Hicks is gone. Nichols is up for extension, How much does he get paid, but he's a mainstay, IMO.
DT: Goldman finally looks like he's rounding back into form. If his head is in the game then he's an above average player. I think you've got a rotational guy in Tonga as well.
OLB: Mack and Quinn are here for another year at least. Remains to be seen how much they fall off due to age. Gipson has shown some promise but hasn't had his name called a whole lot while getting extended run with Quinn and Mack nursing injuries.
ILB: Roquan is a stud and will be extended as such. No one else in the pipeline really. Ogletree has been pretty good but we more so need a guy to keep Roquan clean.
CB: Johnson is a keeper. I think you could keep one of Vildor/Shelley as a nickel corner. We need a #2.
S: Eddie Jackson is shit compared to his contract. Gipson isn't a long-term player and Bush/DHC are backups. We need talent here.

 

[msadows]

Just draft a top 5 QB and great OL. Got it. No problem. .

Thats the point you goober.

If fields develops into an all pro QB, all you need is a great oline and he will have the accuracy to throw those role players open.

 

[dabears70]

This offseason I hope whoever is GM goes hard after every top offensive FA and/or trade target.

Sorround Justin with as much talent as possible. Spend all your cap on it if need be.

I've seen enough of #1 to be certain if he gets a clean pocket we will have a top 10 NFL offense. The next 10-15 years should be super fun.

The two biggest needs on offense will be C and WR, i think we're good everywhere else. We'd have to re-sign James Daniels and of course T.Jenkins will have to stay healthy for us but i'm pretty confident he'll be able to start at one of the tackle spots for us with Borom at the other one.

We got to do some work on defense though or we'll just keep dealing with what happened against Pitt where they pretty easily got themselves in field goal position in those last 2 minutes and that was with a washed up Big Ben.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

Go position by position:

QB: Fields obviously.
RB: Herbert has already shown he's a capable back. Montgomery is a more complete and experienced back and I'd love to retain him but not at a high price.
TE: Kmet is coming on a bit. Still a work in progress. We've seen a bit from Jesse James and Jesper Horsted so maybe we bring those guys back?
WR: Mooney is a keeper, remains to be seen if he can turn into a Tyreek Hill or TY Hilton level player. The cupboard beyond this season is bare otherwise.
OT: Borom/Jenkins has some promise but there's not much to go on.
OG: Do we resign Daniels? And if so, for how much. People like to shit on Whitehair but he's solid and not going anywhere next year anyway, and would hopefully do better with a different...
C: Mustipher is just a backup level guy. Need a new starter here.

DE: Hicks is gone. Nichols is up for extension, How much does he get paid, but he's a mainstay, IMO.
DT: Goldman finally looks like he's rounding back into form. If his head is in the game then he's an above average player. I think you've got a rotational guy in Tonga as well.
OLB: Mack and Quinn are here for another year at least. Remains to be seen how much they fall off due to age. Gipson has shown some promise but hasn't had his name called a whole lot while getting extended run with Quinn and Mack nursing injuries.
ILB: Roquan is a stud and will be extended as such. No one else in the pipeline really. Ogletree has been pretty good but we more so need a guy to keep Roquan clean.
CB: Johnson is a keeper. I think you could keep one of Vildor/Shelley as a nickel corner. We need a #2.
S: Eddie Jackson is shit compared to his contract. Gipson isn't a long-term player and Bush/DHC are backups. We need talent here.

Almost no true difference makers on this list.

Here's an example..... most Bears fans will point to someone like Johnson as a great example of Pace's drafting ability. Starter. Good player. Pace is da man!!!

But then you realize oh shit.... Trevon Diggs was taken with the next pick. Trevon Diggs has 7 INTS's! That's three more than the ENTIRE FUCKING BEAR'S DEFENSE. (and yes I know Diggs has cons and is a gambler.... but still 7 INT's.... the guy is in the running for defensive player of the year right now)

This is my problem with Pace and this is why he needs to be fired. He's not terrible. He's just not GOOD. QB or not, this team is completely void of blue chip difference making talent. Yeah, he's found some starters. Yeah, he's hit on some late round picks. But top 100 NFL talent? It's just not there folks. And he's had seven years.

 

[Nelly]

He's not terrible. He's just not GOOD.

I guess it's just me being realistic. Nothing about this organization since Halas' fingerprints on the team wore off has been anything better than mediocre. So sure, fire Pace and trust one of the worst ownership groups in all of sports to find someone better.

 

[mattb78]

this team is completely void of blue chip difference making talent.

It's a valid point sheep. I have defended Pace but the teams needs high end talent. Misses like white and trubisky hurt.

I am not saying sign Pace to a 10 year deal. But looking at his recent record I think letting him pick one more head coach is not a bad move.

 

[Brit In Chicago]

Almost no true difference makers on this list.

Here's an example..... most Bears fans will point to someone like Johnson as a great example of Pace's drafting ability. Starter. Good player. Pace is da man!!!

But then you realize oh shit.... Trevon Diggs was taken with the next pick. Trevon Diggs has 7 INTS's! That's three more than the ENTIRE FUCKING BEAR'S DEFENSE. (and yes I know Diggs has cons and is a gambler.... but still 7 INT's.... the guy is in the running for defensive player of the year right now)

This is my problem with Pace and this is why he needs to be fired. He's not terrible. He's just not GOOD. QB or not, this team is completely void of blue chip difference making talent. Yeah, he's found some starters. Yeah, he's hit on some late round picks. But top 100 NFL talent? It's just not there folks. And he's had seven years.

Ok so my argument to the drafting picks though (using your example of Diggs and Johnson) is that at the end of the day the draft is ultimately a lottery. You can hedge your bets on who will turn out better but there are no guarantees who will develop quicker or better and come out on top.

Looking at college stats for Diggs and Johnson, they were incredibly similar in their final year with Johnson having better stats in years prior, which is perhaps a suggestion he’d be the better pick.

With that in mind you can argue there wasn’t much to choose between them (as reflected in their eventual picks). Diggs has just happened to develop at a quicker rate.

As for the difference makers part is it not better to have a solid roster where you can bring in a couple of difference makers, then it is to have a couple of playmakers but a dogshit roster around them?

Like I’ve stated I haven’t been around long enough to have a “fall guy” but ultimately I don’t feel that a GM should be judged so strongly on his drafting ability (good or bad) because it can ultimately be a lottery.

Surely a better judgement would be on there FA signings since they’re known commodities and you should know what you’re getting (which I believe the general consensus is that Pace shits the bed in this regard).

Just playing devils advocate here and respect everything you’ve said so far.

 

[CHIBEAR]

Thats the point you goober.

If fields develops into an all pro QB, all you need is a great oline and he will have the accuracy to throw those role players open.

You need more than role players

The Packers have went through

Donald Driver
Javon Walker
Greg Jennings
Jordy Nelson
Randall Cobb
Davante Adams

they are always looking for the next guy and often tend to go no further then the NFC title game so you have to have more than just role players.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

Almost no true difference makers on this list.

Let me test this:

On Offense, Fields is a difference maker. Montgomery is a difference-maker (Anyone who sees the amount of times he drags the opposing defense while still picking up yards and DOESN'T think Monty is a difference maker needs to have the shit kicked out of them and their head repeatedly slammed in a car door, Wilson-Fisk style.) None of the tight ends are there yet, but it takes at least 3 years for most tight ends to come into their own. Going to have to wait and see. Mooney and Borom have potential to make a difference, but I get we aren't talking potential here. Mooney is a top #2 WR, but I'd admit I don't see him as a #1.

On Defense, when healthy, Mack has been a difference maker. Quinn has been as well, but only when paired with Mack. They definitely make a difference, but they are almost a package deal. If one goes down, teams key up on the other.

Roquan Smith and Jaylon Johnson are difference makers. Smith is everywhere, and for idiots who say that they don't even hear Johnson's name being called - THAT'S THE POINT. Teams are rarely even throwing in his direction. They are opting to pick on Vildor instead. He's a difference maker.

Eddie Jackson actually USED to be a difference maker. He got lazy when he got paid.


So minus Eddie Jackson, you have some difference makers on both offense and defense, and still others still showing potential.

In short, a nice core to build around.


I get you hate Pace, but at least make sense.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

Ok so my argument to the drafting picks though (using your example of Diggs and Johnson) is that at the end of the day the draft is ultimately a lottery. You can hedge your bets on who will turn out better but there are no guarantees who will develop quicker or better and come out on top.

Looking at college stats for Diggs and Johnson, they were incredibly similar in their final year with Johnson having better stats in years prior, which is perhaps a suggestion he’d be the better pick.

With that in mind you can argue there wasn’t much to choose between them (as reflected in their eventual picks). Diggs has just happened to develop at a quicker rate.

As for the difference makers part is it not better to have a solid roster where you can bring in a couple of difference makers, then it is to have a couple of playmakers but a dogshit roster around them?

Like I’ve stated I haven’t been around long enough to have a “fall guy” but ultimately I don’t feel that a GM should be judged so strongly on his drafting ability (good or bad) because it can ultimately be a lottery.

Surely a better judgement would be on there FA signings since they’re known commodities and you should know what you’re getting (which I believe the general consensus is that Pace shits the bed in this regard).

Just playing devils advocate here and respect everything you’ve said so far.

I have always said that I think the difference between a true difference making player and an average player is greater than the distance between a "dogshit" player and an average player. I would always always always choose fewer blue chip players over a more balanced average roster. The Tom Brady's of the world make this league run.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

Let me test this:

On Offense, Fields is a difference maker. Montgomery is a difference-maker (Anyone who sees the amount of times he drags the opposing defense while still picking up yards and DOESN'T think Monty is a difference maker needs to have the shit kicked out of them and their head repeatedly slammed in a car door, Wilson-Fisk style.) None of the tight ends are there yet, but it takes at least 3 years for most tight ends to come into their own. Going to have to wait and see. Mooney and Borom have potential to make a difference, but I get we aren't talking potential here. Mooney is a top #2 WR, but I'd admit I don't see him as a #1.

On Defense, when healthy, Mack has been a difference maker. Quinn has been as well, but only when paired with Mack. They definitely make a difference, but they are almost a package deal. If one goes down, teams key up on the other.

Roquan Smith and Jaylon Johnson are difference makers. Smith is everywhere, and for idiots who say that they don't even hear Johnson's name being called - THAT'S THE POINT. Teams are rarely even throwing in his direction. They are opting to pick on Vildor instead. He's a difference maker.

Eddie Jackson actually USED to be a difference maker. He got lazy when he got paid.


So minus Eddie Jackson, you have some difference makers on both offense and defense, and still others still showing potential.

In short, a nice core to build around.


I get you hate Pace, but at least make sense.

Nah, not really. But BE YOU!

Fields may be one. Talent is certainly there for it.

Quan is one.

Mack and Quinn are old and you're spouting the nice core to build around BS? Sure...

Johnson is good. Needs more INT's to be a true difference maker.

Monty is a good back. But not a difference maker. I mean Dallas's BACKUP RB has more yards than him. (Typical Bears fan overrating what they have)

Not sure you really know what a true difference making player is? Maybe watch more non-Bears games?

 

[ThatGuyRyan]

I can’t say I really have a “fall guy” since this is my first season being invested ?‍

Maybe watch them for a few years lol ? wtf

Go position by position:

QB: Fields obviously.
RB: Herbert has already shown he's a capable back. Montgomery is a more complete and experienced back and I'd love to retain him but not at a high price.
TE: Kmet is coming on a bit. Still a work in progress. We've seen a bit from Jesse James and Jesper Horsted so maybe we bring those guys back?
WR: Mooney is a keeper, remains to be seen if he can turn into a Tyreek Hill or TY Hilton level player. The cupboard beyond this season is bare otherwise.
OT: Borom/Jenkins has some promise but there's not much to go on.
OG: Do we resign Daniels? And if so, for how much. People like to shit on Whitehair but he's solid and not going anywhere next year anyway, and would hopefully do better with a different...
C: Mustipher is just a backup level guy. Need a new starter here.

DE: Hicks is gone. Nichols is up for extension, How much does he get paid, but he's a mainstay, IMO.
DT: Goldman finally looks like he's rounding back into form. If his head is in the game then he's an above average player. I think you've got a rotational guy in Tonga as well.
OLB: Mack and Quinn are here for another year at least. Remains to be seen how much they fall off due to age. Gipson has shown some promise but hasn't had his name called a whole lot while getting extended run with Quinn and Mack nursing injuries.
ILB: Roquan is a stud and will be extended as such. No one else in the pipeline really. Ogletree has been pretty good but we more so need a guy to keep Roquan clean.
CB: Johnson is a keeper. I think you could keep one of Vildor/Shelley as a nickel corner. We need a #2.
S: Eddie Jackson is shit compared to his contract. Gipson isn't a long-term player and Bush/DHC are backups. We need talent here.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

Nah, not really. But BE YOU!

Fields may be one. Talent is certainly there for it.

Quan is one.

Mack and Quinn are old and you're spouting the nice core to build around BS? Sure...

Johnson is good. Needs more INT's to be a true difference maker.

Monty is a good back. But not a difference maker. I mean Dallas's BACKUP RB has more yards than him. (Typical Bears fan overrating what they have)

Not sure you really know what a true difference making player is? Maybe watch more non-Bears games?

Like I said, you need the Wison Fisk treatment regarding sleeping on Monty...

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

Like I said, you need the Wison Fisk treatment regarding sleeping on Monty...

News flash..... this isn't the 80's..... the amount of difference making RB's in this league is pretty small.

 

[ijustposthere]

Nah, not really. But BE YOU!

Fields may be one. Talent is certainly there for it.

Quan is one.

Mack and Quinn are old and you're spouting the nice core to build around BS? Sure...

Johnson is good. Needs more INT's to be a true difference maker.

Monty is a good back. But not a difference maker. I mean Dallas's BACKUP RB has more yards than him. (Typical Bears fan overrating what they have)

Not sure you really know what a true difference making player is? Maybe watch more non-Bears games?

LOL at thinking 3 yards and a cloud of dust is a difference maker. Me and you on the same page. I think JJ has the ability to be a difference maker even without the picks. Good corners don't usually get a shit ton of picks because QBs tend to avoid them completely. Diggs, as an example, is getting shredded just as much as he's making plays. Dudes on pace to give up like 1200+ yards this season and is giving up something like 19 ypc IIRC.

 

[Anytime23]

Jesus fucking Christ

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

News flash..... this isn't the 80's..... the amount of difference making RB's in this league is pretty small.

See, that confirms my suspicions. Are you really trying to make difference makers be like "top 3 in the league"? You know how many Superbowls Brady has won without having ANY difference-makers by your characterization?

You'll NEVER be happy looking for a GM who can draft like that BECAUSE THEY DON'T EXIST.

Most NFL TEAMS don't even have ONE difference-maker. And the ones that do, they might only have one difference maker if they contend for playoffs- the QUARTERBACK.

So I think at this point, you really need to clean up what you are saying and be REAL clear what your expectation is.


Because for ME, when I hear difference-maker, can they start on an NFL playoff team seriously contending.

And below, under THAT criteria, looking at today's roster, here's my list of YES. And I will exclude Mack, Quinn and Hicks assuming age for them by the time the core is good:

Fields
Mooney
Smith
Goldman
Johnson
Montgomery
Herbert (not as good as Monty, but good enough to start on a playoff roster)

And here is my list of Maybe, but jury still out:

Kmet
Borom


And beyond that, NOT EVERY PLAYER CAN BE A SUPERSTAR - you still need competent role players who not only can produce, but also fill in to give your starters a rest.

Playoff-caliber role players:

Bilal Nichols
Mario Edwards Jr
Alec Ogletree
Joel Iyiegbuniwe
DeAndre Houston-Carson
Jesse James
Jester Horstead
Alex Bars




17 players who can contribute to the playoff roster.


Stop making excuses. You're allowed to still want Pace fired. I do. But give the devil his due.

 

[BaBaBlacksheep]

Jesus fucking Christ

Super Star.