Caron Butler vocal about wanting to join Bulls

[Utahbullsfan]

From Sam Smith

" I know the Bulls have talked internally about Luol Deng as a shooting guard as he did guard about everyone last season. But he had such a good season you’d hate to move him around. "

 

[Anytime23]

Plz keep Deng at the 3 where he belongs

 

[FirstTimer]

Deng moving to the 2 doesn't change a hell of a lot in the Bulls sets. The Bulls don't have a guy like Ray Allen on the wing to run Boston's sets and they were using Krover to run some of that shit last years anyways and he played the 3 a lot. Having Deng and Butler on the floor on the wings is really a wash in Thibs system and it's not a huge issue because Rose handles the ball so much.

Butler or Deng can play either.

In most offensive sets, outside of multiple post offenses, the wings are interchangable. Each do different things in the set but both is within a pretty comparable skills set and job on the offensive end.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Luol Deng offensively is not a very good SG. He just doesn't have the ball-handling skills to get it done. I mean, in Keith Bogans' role offensively, Deng would be stellar. If Deng's job out there was the 4th offensive option (behind Rose, Boozer, and Butler) then his entire job would to be to stand in the corner, wait for the ball, and shoot. Butler would then have the job of being the secondary play-maker from the wing/high-post. Boozer would mirror Butler in the low-post and Noah/Asik would stand at the top of the key setting screens for Rose.

 

[FirstTimer]

Thibs' flex sets could work with either guy playing the position. The ISO stuff maybe not a ton but that's not a huge issue as that's a directive call to what player so you just flip flop as a player on the floor knowing time/score/situation and who the coach wants to have the ball. The base flex is pretty interchangable(part of the reason I love teaching it at the lower levels), especially with Rose handling as much as he does. Watson on the floor you most likely want Caron seeing a bit more action at the 2 but frankly if you played 100 hundred games with Rose as the PG and Butler and Deng on the wings in these flex sets you'd be hard pressed to tell who was playing the 2 and who was playing the 3.

 

[Anytime23]

So this is all assuming Butler signs with us?

 

[FirstTimer]

So this is all assuming Butler signs with us?

Correct.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Doug says that he cant play the 2.

What makes a 2 a 2 and a 3 a 3? I know sf are usually bigger but there are some 2 guards that are bigger than 3's?

Offensively, there's not much difference. It's defensively where it really makes the difference. Deng guarded the best opposing perimeter player anyway, so it doesn't really matter. You can say "oh Deng doesn't have the ball handling to be a SG" and from a technical point, they're right, but within the Bulls offense, you don't really need your SG to handle a ton (especially since our SGs all have that problem).

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

SGs generally are much better ball-handlers than SFs while SFs are generally much better rebounders and weak-side defensive players than SGs. SGs need to generally have some PG skills (like the ability to create off of the dribble for others), but SGs need to have the ability to create for themselves off of the dribble as well. SFs ideally can create for themselves off of the dribble. But if they cannot, it would be ideal that the SF would at least be able to provide back-to-the-basket/post-up offense.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

If Deng played Bogans' role for the Bulls then Butler would immediately become a SF who can create for himself/others off of the dribble and score in the low-post. Butler also is nearly as good of a rebounder/defensive player as Deng (and way better than Bogans) so you are essentially losing nothing in terms of reb./def. either.

 

[clonetrooper264]

SGs generally are much better ball-handlers than SFs while SFs are generally much better rebounders and weak-side defensive players than SGs. SGs need to generally have some PG skills (like the ability to create off of the dribble for others), but SGs need to have the ability to create for themselves off of the dribble as well. SFs ideally can create for themselves off of the dribble. But if they cannot, it would be ideal that the SF would at least be able to provide back-to-the-basket/post-up offense.

In general, you're right. But within the context of the Bulls (and really, why do we consider anything else?) the difference between SG and SF isn't that big. We would like our SG to have some ball handling ability to create offense, yes, but in the case of having Deng and Butler at the wing, it really doesn't matter who you call the SG or SF so long as one of them is doing the SG's "job." Technically, your SG doesn't need those ball handling skills if your SF can take them instead.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

A line-up of Rose-Butler-Deng-Boozer-Noah is flawed offensively but absolutely beastly on the boards and very good-great defensively. The only thing the Bulls really do not have in that line-up is a well-above average three-point shooter. Butler is not a great slasher so they would be missing out on somebody besides Rose would could do that. However, the transition offense would be better than having Bogans or Korver out there easily.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

In general, you're right. But within the context of the Bulls (and really, why do we consider anything else?) the difference between SG and SF isn't that big. We would like our SG to have some ball handling ability to create offense, yes, but in the case of having Deng and Butler at the wing, it really doesn't matter who you call the SG or SF so long as one of them is doing the SG's "job." Technically, your SG doesn't need those ball handling skills if your SF can take them instead.

Yeah. Like I said in the post above this one, the Bulls really do have a flawed offense if they do not get another wing to go alongside Deng who can slash and be a better than average three-point shooter. But Butler would do everything Korver/Brewer/Bogans can do marginally-much better. Plus, he is a better rebounder and ball-handler than any of them by far.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

The ideal SG for the Bulls would have the off-the-ball ability of Ronnie Brewer on the baseline and Rip Hamilton on the perimeter with Korver's leaning jump-shot ability. He would have Shane Battier's on-ball defense with Ronnie Brewer's speed to chase around guys like Wade/Ray Allen along the perimeter. He would have the ability to spot-up shoot like Arron Afflalo/Kyle Korver and shoot off of the dribble like Michael Redd of old and score in transition like J.R. Smith as well. He would also need the ability to slash like Nick Young and dish off like Tracy McGrady.

Caron Butler is far from that ideal player. But he does have a nice post-up game and rebounds exceptionally.

 

[FirstTimer]

The ideal SG for the Bulls would have the off-the-ball ability of Ronnie Brewer on the baseline and Rip Hamilton on the perimeter with Korver's leaning jump-shot ability. He would have Shane Battier's on-ball defense with Ronnie Brewer's speed to chase around guys like Wade/Ray Allen along the perimeter. He would have the ability to spot-up shoot like Arron Afflalo/Kyle Korver and shoot off of the dribble like Michael Redd of old and score in transition like J.R. Smith as well. He would also need the ability to slash like Nick Young and dish off like Tracy McGrady.

I think that's everyone's ideal shooting guard.

You basically described Kobe Bryant in his prime.


.......................

That being said I think Butler is a better off the bounce player/slasher than you're giving him credit for..at least he was before his knee injury. He wasn't the prototypical slasher but he can/could go off the dribble pretty well. Solidly above average IMO and an upgrade over anyone the Bulls had last year for sure.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I think that's everyone's ideal shooting guard.

You basically described Kobe Bryant in his prime.


.......................

That being said I think Butler is a better off the bounce player/slasher than you're giving him credit for..at least he was before his knee injury. He wasn't the prototypical slasher but he can/could go off the dribble pretty well. Solidly above average IMO and an upgrade over anyone the Bulls had last year for sure.

Fair enough. Let me emphasize the importance of a secondary slasher, secondary play-maker, and well-above average spot-up shooter then.

I hope Butler still has that explosive first step.

I also hope that he pulled a Grant Hill/Jason Kidd and improved his three-point shooting. He was shooting 43% from beyond the arc before his injury last year.

Speaking of Grant Hill, I would definitely take him on the Bulls, as well.

 

[FirstTimer]

Fair enough. Let me emphasize the importance of a secondary slasher, secondary play-maker, and well-above average spot-up shooter then.

I think if Butler can come back to pre-injury form he fits the bill of all those.

It's an "if" but that's why you have works outs etc.

Speaking of Grant Hill, I would definitely take him on the Bulls, as well.

Thought the same thing yesterday when I saw his name floating around. Sadly the Bulls don't have enough free money to make it happen(Thanks Deng, Boozer, Noah contracts!)...because they need a guy like Butler more than they need a guy like Grant.

Grant would be a gigantic lucuxury as a secondary ball handler behind Rose and you could make sure Watson slide sover to a back up wing. But alas............

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Grant Hill coming to the Bulls is my dream. He is my favorite 90's non-Bull basketball player. And current second favorite basketball player only to Rose.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

Grant Hill is one of my favorites rght behind Pippen.

If not for an injury plagued career, grant Hill might have been the best small forward of his era..
I remeber when he first came into the league and the talk as that he was going to be the next jordan..
It didn't work out for him, but I have the upmost respect for someone to come back from an injury like his and make the best of his situation...Even in his late 30s, he is a very effective player and he still has the heart of a lion...I would love for him to come to the Bulls.
He could provide experiance and leadership.......
Most importantly he can teach Boozer about heart and staying tough even when injured.


Did I forget to mention that his favorite player of all time is Scottie Pippen?
How can I not like this guy.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I think an addition of Battier or Hill would really help Rose blossom into a disciplined player. Both are high character guys. And Battier would teach Rose how to play great defense by example.