Chicago Bullseye 105: Loyalty Talk

[Fred]

Kush77 wrote:

houheffna wrote:

2. I believe I said top 5 in the past 20 years. I have him number 6 overall right now:
1. Jordan 2. Pippen 3. Love 4. Rose 5. Walker 6. Gordon. I'm sure you'll disagree.

LOL...you are asking other people's age man...and you put Gordon over Artis Gillmore? Are you serious? You put Gordon over a boderline HOF player? Van Lier should have his number retired after looking at his resume...All League Defensive player how many times? Gordon was all.......what?

As far as accomplishments Gordon is not top 5. As far as skill, even lower...based on this forum he is definitely top 5 overrated...

I looked at Atris Gilmore's stats for the first time. Man, he was pretty damn good. damn good.

I always had the impression that he was on the Bulls later in his career, but that wasn't the case.

It's funny how you can have an impression about something, but when you look at the actual stats, it's completely different.

He shot 67% one year. Whooo.

His NBA career numbers are 17ppg, 10 rebs, 60% shooting and 2 blocks.

I don't know if Fred was talking about his personal top 5. I can agree Gordon is to 5 over the last 20 years. But that's close too. He might not make it actually.

Last 20 years
1) MJ
2) Pippen
3) Grant
4) Rodman
5) Kukoc

So maybe I would say Godon isn't top 5 over the last 20 years.
And in terms of franchise history, it's not close. Gilmore, Van Lier and Sloan, plus the dynasty guys. Gordon might be in the Top 20 possibly. I'd have to make a list.

I loved Kukoc. He's one of my favorite players. But in terms of offensive production, he didn't match up to Gordon's body of work over 5 years.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/leaders_career.html

Gordon's offensive accomplishments are staggering when you consider his total minutes played. He's all over this list, and he's nowhere near the the top 10 in minutes played. Contrast that with Hinrich, who is top 10 in minutes played.

 

[evilhoban]

Fred wrote:


Wade was 16 in 1998. Obviously he was old enough to understand the bullsh*t that the organization pulled at the time. Apparently he was more mature than a certain 22 year old in 1998 who would later cry about an older Wade's comments regarding the treatment of Jordan and Pippen.

Fred, you are the last person I will take a comment on maturity from. Because I disagree with you does not mean I am less mature than you. Cry? Like you whine, piss and moan about Ben Gordon? You act like such a irrational cry baby on your show ...it's half-time funny, half-time pathetic.

The Bulls were 22 years old in 1988. Magic and Bird has been in the league for 8 years, and believe it or not, there were scouts, assistant coaches, marketing departments, and television and radio announcers in 1988. All of these positions were available and able to be filled with former players. The only reason you think the comparison is bullsh#t is because you don't have an legitmate answer for it.

I do think the comparison is bullshit. The NBA was on a larger stage when the Heat started, and for a majority of their existence. It's apples and oranges, man. How is it not more relevant to take both franchises since 2000 and compare? You haven't even come up with a concrete example or point on this topic, but apparently I don't have an answer for it. Nice....

Horace Grant did not show loyalty to the Bulls because they did not show loyalty to him. Loyalty is shown to players by paying them what they deserve. They didn't provide it to Grant. I don't think Horace handled the situation in the best fashion either, but considering that almost every great player of that era had problems with Bulls management, I'll side with Horace.

I was old and mature enough to remember Horace Grant on a half-time NBC show talk about Orlando while he was still a Bull....what an awesome example. You brought him up. I'm just saying he is equally douchey as management...but what a horrible example to support your point.

BTW, I love your fill in the blank game. I'm guessing you were thinking of the word ass. You win, Zinger King. I'm going to invite you once again to come on the show so I can educate you. We'll debate, and the listeners decide who wins. If you win, I'll donate 50 bucks to the charity of your choice, as long as it has nothing to do with saving gerbils. If you lose, I'm changing your screen name, avatar and quote to something more appropriate. What say you, Gorches Jr?

Actually....the fill in the blank was a psyche test. I typed "Fred is a ______ hole." not "Fred is AN _______hole." That means deep down, you really think of yourself as an ***hole. It could have been "black hole" (how you play the game), "pot hole" (an annoying nuisance), "man hole" (I'll leave that one alone actually...), etc...lots of options.

So...you want to make it the Zinger King vs. the Burger King on the Chicago Bullseye so you can yell over me irrationally and have YOUR listeners pick a winner? Well...it just so happens I am driving down to Chicago in a couple of weeks but I would have to see what the schedule would be so nothing guaranteed.

I have a signed basketball card with Noah on one side and Gordon on the other I could put up. My charity would be that you buy some new sound equipment so I can hear Mark and maybe a muzzle or shock collar for you so he can finish a sentence.

I must warn you though...I don't take kindly to people yelling in my face.

 

[houheffna]

Fred,

Didn't Reinsdorf by the team in the mid 1980's? Arthur Wirtz was the original owner of the team...and George Steinbrenner bought into the team also. Why is Reinsdorf responsiblity for the first 20+years of organizational loyalty or disloyalty?

Plus, Sloan coached for the Bulls, Red Kerr and Tom Boerwinkle did broadcasts...what more do you want? The Bulls are no different from any other organization...

Wade is downing the Bulls because he doesn't want Lebron to come to Chicago...that is it...that is all. You can act as if Wade is some jaded Bulls fan with a broken heart...but that is b.s.

And it all will eventually go back to the mouth of his Airness...he will be exposed...

 

[houheffna]

I always had the impression that he was on the Bulls later in his career, but that wasn't the case.

He did come back briefly in the late 1980's

 

[turdburglar]

So... Wade chose to spout out about Bulls' loyalty in 1998? now and throw in a cheap plug for his own team at the height of Lebron-mania in Chicago because he is such a big Bulls fan? Why is it Fred is the only one who fails to call this one what it is? Players can say what they want and tampering rules don't apply. That's why Wade can call his free-agent summit and surround his buddies with Miami beach-ho's in a lame-a** attempt to get them to go to his lame-a** team and it won't be considered tampering by the league. He knows it's him and Supa Cool Beas next year and he can't compete with Chicago! What is so hard to figure out here? He really didn't seem to need much prompting when answering the question... Bulls ARE a loyal organization not (in spite of Gordon), sad but true. They tried to keep their team together- they locked up Noc, they locked up Hinrich, they locked up Deng, BUUUUT when it came time to commit the remainder of their money (and their flexibility for the next 5-6 years) they balked at giving it to BG because that team was not championship caliber. AND they had offered Gordon a contract the year before which HE declined... oh well. I'd rather have BG with Lebron too, but oh well- if we have Lebron I will forget all about BG (and so will the rest of Bulls fandom). Miami sucks and I wish nothing more than D-Wade to wallow in mediocrity down there- he is officially out of my five!

 

[evilhoban]

Nice Avatar with the "Floor Gordon".

 

[Fred]

evilhoban wrote:

Fred wrote:


Wade was 16 in 1998. Obviously he was old enough to understand the bullsh*t that the organization pulled at the time. Apparently he was more mature than a certain 22 year old in 1998 who would later cry about an older Wade's comments regarding the treatment of Jordan and Pippen.

Fred, you are the last person I will take a comment on maturity from. Because I disagree with you does not mean I am less mature than you. Cry? Like you whine, piss and moan about Ben Gordon? You act like such a irrational cry baby on your show ...it's half-time funny, half-time pathetic.

The Bulls were 22 years old in 1988. Magic and Bird has been in the league for 8 years, and believe it or not, there were scouts, assistant coaches, marketing departments, and television and radio announcers in 1988. All of these positions were available and able to be filled with former players. The only reason you think the comparison is bullsh#t is because you don't have an legitmate answer for it.

I do think the comparison is bullshit. The NBA was on a larger stage when the Heat started, and for a majority of their existence. It's apples and oranges, man. How is it not more relevant to take both franchises since 2000 and compare? You haven't even come up with a concrete example or point on this topic, but apparently I don't have an answer for it. Nice....

Horace Grant did not show loyalty to the Bulls because they did not show loyalty to him. Loyalty is shown to players by paying them what they deserve. They didn't provide it to Grant. I don't think Horace handled the situation in the best fashion either, but considering that almost every great player of that era had problems with Bulls management, I'll side with Horace.

I was old and mature enough to remember Horace Grant on a half-time NBC show talk about Orlando while he was still a Bull....what an awesome example. You brought him up. I'm just saying he is equally douchey as management...but what a horrible example to support your point.

BTW, I love your fill in the blank game. I'm guessing you were thinking of the word ass. You win, Zinger King. I'm going to invite you once again to come on the show so I can educate you. We'll debate, and the listeners decide who wins. If you win, I'll donate 50 bucks to the charity of your choice, as long as it has nothing to do with saving gerbils. If you lose, I'm changing your screen name, avatar and quote to something more appropriate. What say you, Gorches Jr?

Actually....the fill in the blank was a psyche test. I typed "Fred is a ______ hole." not "Fred is AN _______hole." That means deep down, you really think of yourself as an ***hole. It could have been "black hole" (how you play the game), "pot hole" (an annoying nuisance), "man hole" (I'll leave that one alone actually...), etc...lots of options.

So...you want to make it the Zinger King vs. the Burger King on the Chicago Bullseye so you can yell over me irrationally and have YOUR listeners pick a winner? Well...it just so happens I am driving down to Chicago in a couple of weeks but I would have to see what the schedule would be so nothing guaranteed.

I have a signed basketball card with Noah on one side and Gordon on the other I could put up. My charity would be that you buy some new sound equipment so I can hear Mark and maybe a muzzle or shock collar for you so he can finish a sentence.

I must warn you though...I don't take kindly to people yelling in my face.

You do realize that Mark lives in California and we are still able to record shows. I think we'll be able to handle recording your thoughts from a phone in Minn. You can talk for 2 minutes then I'll get a chance to counter and so it goes. It usually makes for an interesting listen.

 

[evilhoban]

I do realize that. I just prefer debating people to their face. You are more than welcome to record it though.....

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

I always had the impression that he was on the Bulls later in his career, but that wasn't the case.

He did come back briefly in the late 1980's

That's what I was remembering, that was the first year I watched the Bulls, 87-88. I looked at the stats and he played half the year with the Bulls and half with Boston. I assume he was in the Sam Vincent trade?

 

[Kush77]

I haven't read every thread in the fred vs. Evil battle here, but I keep seeing Horace Grant's name so I'll throw in my 2 cents.

When it comes to Horace Grant, he should have been resigned with the Bulls. It was a no-brainer. The best inside scorer/defender and rebounder on your 3-time title team should be resigned. Even if it meant overpaying him a bit. He deserved it. It's an absolute no-brainer to me.

Now what happened? Why wasn't he given a new deal after the 92-93 season? You'd just won the third title, why would Grant not be locked up at that point?

Maybe it had to do with Grant playing poorly in Game's 5 and 6 vs Phoenix? I have no idea. Maybe this is something I'll research.

But lets just say for the sake of argument the Bulls were willing to gamble to see how Horace would do in 93/94 before giving him a new deal. He ended up being an all-star for the first time and the Bulls had a good year without Jordan.

So the Bulls lost that gamble and would have to pay more than they would have after his poor series vs. Phoenix. JR wasn't willing to pay more for Horace. I don't think Orlando's offer blew the Bulls out of the water. It was probably bad feeling from not getting a deal sooner.

There's also JR's side of the story where he says him and Grant had a handshake deal. No agent involved i guess? I don't know.

At the same time, Horace was a complete ass during the stretch run of the 93/94 season. His missed game from what JR called "the blue flu" probably cost the Bulls a #1 seed in the East - besides Pippen choking on those FT at home vs. Boston the night Richard Nixon died, then Robert Parrish proceeded to turn back the clock vs. Will Purdue and light him up in overtime.

Anyway, in addition to the blue flu, Grant also had this NBA halftime interview where he was lobbying the Magic, and Shaq in particular. All this while the Bulls were getting ready for the playoffs. That really pissed me off as a fan.

So Horace handled it poorly. He was no saint. But the point I always made was - Grant should have been locked up before any of the nonsense that took place in 1994. I just never understood that.

 

[evilhoban]

Kush-

I agree completely ...I remember that interview. I also remember his reaction after Nick Anderson stole the ball from Jordan and they beat us in Chicago. Karma's a ***** though....swept in the finals and then swept by Chicago the next year. Eat it, goggles...


Look....any Bulls fan remembers selfish stupid stuff said and done by both players and management leading to the break up of the dynasty. My original point is this is NOT why D-Wade made those comments AND it has little to do with anything today and he's a ****** for saying that stuff.

Good points on Grant.

-Peace-

 

[Shakes]

Top 5 of the last 20 years is interesting, because after Jordan and Pippen I can see a case for quite a few guys to fill the last 3 spots. It probably depends on whether we're talking entire Bulls career or just their peak. If we're talking entire Bulls career then probably he's 4th after Grant. But I'd also have Rodman, Brand, Chandler, Deng, Rose and Noah ahead of him for peak (yeah some people will hate on some of those, but we've been over why I'm a fan of 04-05 Chandler and 06-07 Deng before). He does beat out Kukoc for either measure though I think.

So I can see him being anywhere from 4th to 10th depending on how you judge it.

 

[emvp1970]

I'm a longtime Chicago Bullseye listener who sometimes loves what Fred has to say sometimes hates what he has to say since I'm a Hinrich fan, but either way, I'll always listen. I usually read the boards, and this is the first time I've felt the need to jump in because I actually agree with him on this one. Are the Bulls loyal? Well, it depends on who the former player was. Did Grant act like a ******? Sure but only after the Bulls didn't pay him. They were too cheap. someone said on the board loyalty is best shown with cash. Getting upset with Wade's comments is stupid. Really think James will care what Wade thinks about loyalty if he wants to win. I don't think this was some sort of master plan on his part either. He answered a question and that is probably what he really thinks. He wants his extra 30 million with the Heat and he did the Bulls a favor because we can now focus on other players. I think he said what he felt. a lot of bulls fans have thought that in regards to Pippen and Jordan including me back in 90's. It doesn't really matter anyhow. Lebron shouldnt care either way.

 

[Kush77]

emvp1970 wrote:

I'm a longtime Chicago Bullseye listener who sometimes loves what Fred has to say sometimes hates what he has to say since I'm a Hinrich fan, but either way, I'll always listen. I usually read the boards, and this is the first time I've felt the need to jump in because I actually agree with him on this one. Are the Bulls loyal? Well, it depends on who the former player was. Did Grant act like a ******? Sure but only after the Bulls didn't pay him. They were too cheap. someone said on the board loyalty is best shown with cash. Getting upset with Wade's comments is stupid. Really think James will care what Wade thinks about loyalty if he wants to win. I don't think this was some sort of master plan on his part either. He answered a question and that is probably what he really thinks. He wants his extra 30 million with the Heat and he did the Bulls a favor because we can now focus on other players. I think he said what he felt. a lot of bulls fans have thought that in regards to Pippen and Jordan including me back in 90's. It doesn't really matter anyhow. Lebron shouldnt care either way.

Welcome to the boards emvp.

And I agree with that entire statement.

There are far greater factors at play, when it comes to LeBron actually leaving Cleveland, than Wade's view on the Bulls' loyalty.

The biggest thing that needed to happen for LBJ to get frustrated and leave (Cavs getting upset again) happened.

 

[Kush77]

Shakes wrote:

Top 5 of the last 20 years is interesting, because after Jordan and Pippen I can see a case for quite a few guys to fill the last 3 spots. It probably depends on whether we're talking entire Bulls career or just their peak. If we're talking entire Bulls career then probably he's 4th after Grant. But I'd also have Rodman, Brand, Chandler, Deng, Rose and Noah ahead of him for peak (yeah some people will hate on some of those, but we've been over why I'm a fan of 04-05 Chandler and 06-07 Deng before). He does beat out Kukoc for either measure though I think.

So I can see him being anywhere from 4th to 10th depending on how you judge it.

I don't know, I thought the Kukoc/Gordon would close. And I'm Gordon guy. I guess it's how much weight you give to the titles, etc.

I'm might actually lean toward Kukoc. He did lead the team in scoring in 1999. And I think was leading them in scoring in 2000 before he got traded. Not that it meant much because the teams were terrible.

 

[Shakes]

Kush77 wrote:

I'm might actually lean toward Kukoc. He did lead the team in scoring in 1999. And I think was leading them in scoring in 2000 before he got traded. Not that it meant much because the teams were terrible.

Kukoc's percentages went to hell when he was asked to be the leading scorer. I don't think Gordon or Kukoc are ideal number one options, but Gordon can at least work in that role, Kukoc clearly couldn't.

 

[houheffna]

The Kukoc/Gordon debate is not that difficult, neither were good defensively. Kukoc was a better ballhandler and passer and just as good if not better in crunchtime than Gordon. I also think Kukoc was a smarter player because of his years as a playmaker in Europe. People look at stats but don't analyze the game. When I say Lamar Odom is a better player than Ben Gordon, I mean that Odom is a more skilled player. I feel the same about Kukoc...

 

[Shakes]

I don't get what the point of a player being "more skilled" is if it doesn't translate to them doing something on the court to help the team win. For all Kukoc's skill, when he was asked to play the role Gordon did on the team, he shot percentages that Hinrich would be ashamed to put up.

 

[houheffna]

Gordon is top 5 in the last 20 years. Gilmore was better than Gordon. Sloan was better than Gordon. Van Lier had career averages around 11 points per game, 7 assists, and 3 rebounds. If Van Lier wasn't such a great guy off the court, and he wasn't such a big presence on Bulls television during the title era, no one would be talking about putting his banner up anywhere. I hate to say it, but it's true. He was a great defender, true. By that logic, Van Lier is better than Derrick Rose. Who is going to say that?

Norm 3 All star games/BG....
Norm 1x All-NBA/BG...
Norm 8x All-League Defensive Team/BG...

BG has one 6th man award...

This shows who were the more dominant in their time. Van Lier went to more allstar games and was All NBA and All Leagued Defensive Team more times than Sloan...that said Reggie Theus was also a better player...

Just more reason why Gordon should not be included in any arguments concerning Bulls loyalty.

And how can you bring up disloyalty to Gordon and not bring up loyalty to his teammates? Why did they pick on poor BG?

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

The Kukoc/Gordon debate is not that difficult, neither were good defensively. Kukoc was a better ballhandler and passer and just as good if not better in crunchtime than Gordon. I also think Kukoc was a smarter player because of his years as a playmaker in Europe. People look at stats but don't analyze the game. When I say Lamar Odom is a better player than Ben Gordon, I mean that Odom is a more skilled player. I feel the same about Kukoc...

Sure. Looking at it from that aspect, yes. Toni at 6'11 handled it like a point and was superior passer. But was a poor rebounder for his height. Both were not good defensively.

If we are just looking at skills, than Toni wins that hands down. But this coming from an - impact on the franchise - perspective. And in that case I would probably still lean toward Kukoc because he was a key member of title team.

Personally I'll give you more bump for being part of the title teams.

Bulls over the last 20 years, I think I would have BG 6th.