Chicago Bullseye 105: Loyalty Talk

[pinkizdead]

loyalty to his teammates? who was picking on bg? i think erryone on this team had nothing but praise for bg.

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

Gordon is top 5 in the last 20 years. Gilmore was better than Gordon. Sloan was better than Gordon. Van Lier had career averages around 11 points per game, 7 assists, and 3 rebounds. If Van Lier wasn't such a great guy off the court, and he wasn't such a big presence on Bulls television during the title era, no one would be talking about putting his banner up anywhere. I hate to say it, but it's true. He was a great defender, true. By that logic, Van Lier is better than Derrick Rose. Who is going to say that?

Norm 3 All star games/BG....
Norm 1x All-NBA/BG...
Norm 8x All-League Defensive Team/BG...

BG has one 6th man award...

This shows who were the more dominant in their time. Van Lier went to more allstar games and was All NBA and All Leagued Defensive Team more times than Sloan...that said Reggie Theus was also a better player...

Just more reason why Gordon should not be included in any arguments concerning Bulls loyalty.

And how can you bring up disloyalty to Gordon and not bring up loyalty to his teammates? Why did they pick on poor BG?

There were 22 teams in the league when Norm played. And there was also this thing called the ABA. It's a little easier to make an All-Star team when there are less players to chose from, and the talent is diluted because of another solid professional league.

 

[Shakes]

Kush77 wrote:

Personally I'll give you more bump for being part of the title teams.

Finally you're coming around to the fact that Craig Hodges > Ben Gordon.

 

[Fred]

emvp1970 wrote:

I'm a longtime Chicago Bullseye listener who sometimes loves what Fred has to say sometimes hates what he has to say since I'm a Hinrich fan, but either way, I'll always listen. I usually read the boards, and this is the first time I've felt the need to jump in because I actually agree with him on this one. Are the Bulls loyal? Well, it depends on who the former player was. Did Grant act like a ******? Sure but only after the Bulls didn't pay him. They were too cheap. someone said on the board loyalty is best shown with cash. Getting upset with Wade's comments is stupid. Really think James will care what Wade thinks about loyalty if he wants to win. I don't think this was some sort of master plan on his part either. He answered a question and that is probably what he really thinks. He wants his extra 30 million with the Heat and he did the Bulls a favor because we can now focus on other players. I think he said what he felt. a lot of bulls fans have thought that in regards to Pippen and Jordan including me back in 90's. It doesn't really matter anyhow. Lebron shouldnt care either way.

Well I kind of love/hate what you say too, because I can imagine your hatred flows from my comments on the Captain. That said, you made a great point about Wade doing us a favor in that we can now focus on only LeBron and Bosh. I received an email from a listener about one week before the Wade comments saying something like, "We should forget Lebron and focus on Wade", primarily because he doesn't like how he disrespects the opponent with his little dances. Glad that kind of talk is now behind us.

 

[houheffna]

loyalty to his teammates? who was picking on bg? i think erryone on this team had nothing but praise for bg.

Reinsdorf showed loyalty to all of those players, including Gordon...Gordon voluntarily became a dumbass...and Reinsdorf wanted nothing to do with him...how is that disloyal? Hinrich, Deng, got big contracts that offered security...Just as Reinsdorf did with Pippen years ago. Reinsdorf even demanded that Krause renegotiate with Pippen...yet he is disloyal because he didn't kiss any more ass than he had to?

There were 22 teams in the league when Norm played. And there was also this thing called the ABA. It's a little easier to make an All-Star team when there are less players to chose from, and the talent is diluted because of another solid professional league.

So did Sloan, yet Van Lier's resume was just as impressive...
Yet according to your argument, because of the ABA...Gordon is better than Van Lier, maybe Sloan, and Walt Frazier? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Fred]

Just curious, Has anyone here ever heard of Don Buse? I honestly believe that today is the first time I've ever heard his name.

NBA ALL-Defense:

1977-78
FIRST TEAM
Bobby Jones, Denver
Maurice Lucas, Portland
Bill Walton, Portland
Lionel Hollins, Portland
Don Buse, Phoenix

1976-77
FIRST TEAM
Bobby Jones, Denver
E. C. Coleman, New Orleans
Bill Walton, Portland
Don Buse, Indiana
Norm Van Lier, Chicago

 

[Shakes]

Never heard of him, but seems he's the only player ever to average 4 steal a game for a season, impressive even if it was in the ABA.

 

[Fred]

Shakes wrote:

Never heard of him, but seems he's the only player ever to average 4 steal a game for a season, impressive even if it was in the ABA.

This was the NBA list. I think the ABA folded around 76 and Indiana was one of the few teams brought into the NBA.

 

[Shakes]

Well apparently he wasn't a flash in the pan: "Buse was an All-Defensive Team member every season from the 1974-75 season through the 1979-80 season. The first two were in the ABA and the final four were in the NBA."

 

[Fred]

Shakes wrote:

Well apparently he wasn't a flash in the pan: "Buse was an All-Defensive Team member every season from the 1974-75 season through the 1979-80 season. The first two were in the ABA and the final four were in the NBA."

Honestly never heard of him before today.

 

[Kush77]

Shakes wrote:

I don't get what the point of a player being "more skilled" is if it doesn't translate to them doing something on the court to help the team win. For all Kukoc's skill, when he was asked to play the role Gordon did on the team, he shot percentages that Hinrich would be ashamed to put up.

I looked at his FG% for the first time, and you're right Shakes.

During the title years, playing with NJ and Pip, his FG% was solid. But when he became the #1 option (1999 and 2000) his FG percentage was terrible.

I can understand the more skilled debate, but that's a separate argument. What really matters are results right?

I always said Tim Duncan was a better basketball player than Shaq (he could actually make a shot from outside the paint) but they both got results. It two different arguments.

If we went by that logic than Toni Kukoc is more skilled than Rodman. But Rodman was more important during those years. So that's my 2 cents.

 

[TheStig]

Kukoc was a good player off the bench that probably could have started at sf for other teams but he isn't as good as BG. BG is a good and efficent scorer. I think some of you guys underrate BG as a one trick pony, he isn't Jason Kopono.

 

[Fred]

Kush77 wrote:

Shakes wrote:

I don't get what the point of a player being "more skilled" is if it doesn't translate to them doing something on the court to help the team win. For all Kukoc's skill, when he was asked to play the role Gordon did on the team, he shot percentages that Hinrich would be ashamed to put up.

I looked at his FG% for the first time, and you're right Shakes.

During the title years, playing with NJ and Pip, his FG% was solid. But when he became the #1 option (1999 and 2000) his FG percentage was terrible.

I can understand the more skilled debate, but that's a separate argument. What really matters are results right?

I always said Tim Duncan was a better basketball player than Shaq (he could actually make a shot from outside the paint) but they both got results. It two different arguments.

If we went by that logic than Toni Kukoc is more skilled than Rodman. But Rodman was more important during those years. So that's my 2 cents.

In fairness to Toni, an aged Ron Harper was the 2nd leading scorer on the 99 Bulls, and he shot 37% from the field that year. Brent Barry was the 3rd leading scorer, and he was a major disappointment. Small hands Simpkins was 4th. In other words, I think you can make an argument that the roster surrounding Toni Kukoc that year was the worst roster in NBA history. Really, Toni and Barry were probably the only NBA-quality players (Harper, Wennington and Randy Brown were old and they sucked), and Barry barely. Your FG% is going to come down when you are surrounded by a sea of crap.

 

[Fred]

TheStig wrote:

Kukoc was a good player off the bench that probably could have started at sf for other teams but he isn't as good as BG. BG is a good and efficent scorer. I think some of you guys underrate BG as a one trick pony, he isn't Jason Kopono.

Amen Stig. BG is top 10 in Bulls history for Free Throws Made. You don't get to that point in limited minutes over 5 seasons by shooting 3-pointers all day. He got to the line much better than any current Bull, and you only do that by taking the ball to the rack aggressively.

 

[TheStig]

Fred wrote:

houheffna wrote:

Gordon is top 5 in the last 20 years. Gilmore was better than Gordon. Sloan was better than Gordon. Van Lier had career averages around 11 points per game, 7 assists, and 3 rebounds. If Van Lier wasn't such a great guy off the court, and he wasn't such a big presence on Bulls television during the title era, no one would be talking about putting his banner up anywhere. I hate to say it, but it's true. He was a great defender, true. By that logic, Van Lier is better than Derrick Rose. Who is going to say that?

Norm 3 All star games/BG....
Norm 1x All-NBA/BG...
Norm 8x All-League Defensive Team/BG...

BG has one 6th man award...

This shows who were the more dominant in their time. Van Lier went to more allstar games and was All NBA and All Leagued Defensive Team more times than Sloan...that said Reggie Theus was also a better player...

Just more reason why Gordon should not be included in any arguments concerning Bulls loyalty.

And how can you bring up disloyalty to Gordon and not bring up loyalty to his teammates? Why did they pick on poor BG?

There were 22 teams in the league when Norm played. And there was also this thing called the ABA. It's a little easier to make an All-Star team when there are less players to chose from, and the talent is diluted because of another solid professional league.

Thats nearly a third less players between 8 less teams and 12 man active rosters. And as Fred said, the ABA is a bit more talented than the nbdl.

 

[houheffna]

Van Lier went to an allstar game and was all league defense twice after the merger, he only played 3 seasons after the merger...I don't think the merger slowed him down...and the NBA was a superior league.

 

[TheStig]

22 teams is still 8 less, not to mention a player less on the active roster and the fact that international players weren't as big of a part of the league as they are now. Van Lier was a good player but the competion was not nearly as strong as it is today.

 

[houheffna]

22 teams is still 8 less, not to mention a player less on the active roster and the fact that international players weren't as big of a part of the league as they are now. Van Lier was a good player but the competion was not nearly as strong as it is today.

The rules were different. The point is in his time he was recognized league wide in a league that had a lot of dominant players...and again how is Sloan considered better than Gordon and not Van Lier...

Ben Gordon is not a new phenomenon. While people on this forum want to compare Gordon to Dumars...I compare him to players like World B. Free and The Boston Strangler, though not quite on their levels...there were guys that played like Gordon in the past...it is not a new phenomenon.

Van Lier was considered one of the best at his position in the league at that time. Can't say the same for Gordon

 

[Shakes]

Comparing Gordon to World B Free is a pretty big compliment. World B Free was second in the league in scoring twice. Heck, he was top 5 in FTA five times. If Gordon was actually that good I'd be on the "we made a huge mistake not resigning that guy" bandwagon.

 

[Diddy1122]

houheffna wrote:

..and the NBA was a superior league.

I wouldn't call NBA superior back then. They were loads of great players, HOFers, in the ABA at that time. Dr. J., Moses, the Iceman, Connie Hawkins, Skywalker, Gilmore, Issel, & Rick Barry. All of them killed when they got to the "big leagues".

Plus the ABA destroyed the NBA in their exhibition games during the 70's. Their record from 73-75, just before the merger, was 62-34 vs. NBA teams. The ABA champion beat the NBA champion every timed they played. In fact, the argument can be made that the ABA was the better league. The game was faster, with more trapping defenses, not to mention the 3pt shot. Honestly if the league wasn't so bankrupt by the time the fans eventually came around it could've given the NBA a serious run for it's money.