Chicago Bullseye 114 - Talk amongst yourselves

[mlewinth]

New Bullseye is up. Sorry in advance to Evilhoban and EMVP. Fred is in Vegas and we had to discuss what he was seeing down there. We will get you on a show soon.

This weeks topics. Do you agree with the current odds in Vegas, for who will win this years NBA crown? Just a refresher. Here are the current Vegas odds in one casino. Also, can we entertain a discussion about who you would rather have, Derrick Rose or Kevin Durant? Fred thinks you can.

Atlanta Hawks
28/1

Boston Celtics
12/1

Charlotte Bobcats
50/1

Chicago Bulls
15/1

Cleveland Cavaliers
60/1

Dallas Mavericks
18/1

Denver Nuggets
18/1

Detroit Pistons
100/1

Golden State Warriors
75/1

Houston Rockets
35/1

Indiana Pacers
100/1

Los Angeles Clippers
100/1

Los Angeles Lakers
11/4

Memphis Grizzlies
50/1

Miami Heat
7/4

Milwaukee Bucks
40/1

Minnesota Timberwolves
150/1

New Jersey Nets
150/1

New Orleans Hornets
40/1

New York Knicks
35/1

Oklahoma City Thunder
18/1

Orlando Magic
11/1

Philadelphia 76ers
100/1

Phoenix Suns
35/1

Portland Trailblazers
35/1

Sacramento Kings
150/1

San Antonio Spurs
28/1

Toronto Raptors
150/1

Utah Jazz
30/1

Washington Wizards
50/1

 

[pinkizdead]

rose isn't going to be the scoring champ in his 3rd year in the nba. durant is better at drawing fouls. if rose can do that, he'll be in the convo.

 

[Diddy1122]

As much as I love Durant & he's an amazing scorer, high scoring wings come along more often than PG's of Rose's ability. In fact I don't believe there has ever been a PG like Rose in the NBA. There have been many a Kevin Durant. I'd stick with Rose.

 

[houheffna]

As much as I love Durant & he's an amazing scorer, high scoring wings come along more often than PG's of Rose's ability. In fact I don't believe there has ever been a PG like Rose in the NBA. There have been many a Kevin Durant. I'd stick with Rose.

I don't think so dude! There has been many a Durant??? Name them!

A 7 Foot shooting guard? Where were they? I didn't see them!

Rose is a very good player, nobody is projecting him to be the best in the game. Durant is already making that push. Rose has to work on his game. Durant? Can't be guarded. You totally underestimate Durant's abilities. Ron Artest just stated that Durant is the most difficult player to guard in the league, including Lebron and Kobe. I don't think he is off at all.



You might be guilty of drinking to much hometown kool aid man...lol

 

[Kush77]

Durant vs. Rose, Durant takes this one running away.

 

[Diddy1122]

houheffna wrote:
I don't think so dude! There has been many a Durant??? Name them!

A 7 Foot shooting guard? Where were they? I didn't see them!

Rose is a very good player, nobody is projecting him to be the best in the game. Durant is already making that push. Rose has to work on his game. Durant? Can't be guarded. You totally underestimate Durant's abilities. Ron Artest just stated that Durant is the most difficult player to guard in the league, including Lebron and Kobe. I don't think he is off at all.



You might be guilty of drinking to much hometown kool aid man...lol[/quote]

First off, Durant is not 7 feet tall. What kool aid have you been drinking? He's 6-9. You want a names off the top of my head? How about Jerry West (And he was only 6-2!)? Bryant? MJ? The Iceman? All dominant players at the wing positions who no one could guard. Hell even T-Mac just 7 years ago was Durant (though not as good of a shooter).

I think you underestimate Rose. The guy is Lebron James at the point. He's just scratching the surface right now. You have not seen the best of Rose, believe me. I think Durant is already a great player & may go down as one of the greats at the 2 guard but you're making it out like there's never been a player like Durant ever & it's simply not true. Dominant wing scorers have been in the NBA since the NBA began. There's never been a player at the PG position with Rose's combination of skills. And PG is the most important position in bball imho & that's the reason I take Rose. Call me a homer if you want to but I'm sticking by it.

 

[houheffna]

First off, Durant is not 7 feet tall. What kool aid have you been drinking? He's 6-9. You want a names off the top of my head? How about Jerry West (And he was only 6-2!)? Bryant? MJ? The Iceman? All dominant players at the wing positions who no one could guard. Hell even T-Mac just 7 years ago was Durant (though not as good of a shooter).

I think you underestimate Rose. The guy is Lebron James at the point. He's just scratching the surface right now. You have not seen the best of Rose, believe me. I think Durant is already a great player & may go down as one of the greats at the 2 guard but you're making it out like there's never been a player like Durant ever & it's simply not true. Dominant wing scorers have been in the NBA since the NBA began. There's never been a player at the PG position with Rose's combination of skills. And PG is the most important position in bball imho & that's the reason I take Rose. Call me a homer if you want to but I'm sticking by it.

Dude, watch Durant play...you obviously never watched him.

You compare Durant to Jerry West? Are you serious??? Rose is still working on his jumpshot. And Durant is taller than 6-9...

I will call you a homer...thanks...you compare Durant to Jordan and say Rose can be better? What kind of sense does that make?

Secondly...you compare Rose to Lebron...sorry, Lebron is a half a foot taller. And 75 pounds bigger. You must be watching that commercial with Little Lebron in it.

Finally. Durant IS NOT a shooting guard. I take it from what you have stated that you haven't watched him much. Durant is a forward, he has shooting guard skills on the perimeter. That is what I was referring to. You pissed all over your own argument.

Jordan was a "dominant wing scorer" and you compared Durant to him. Rose is trying to be Isiah Thomas right now. The team is experimenting with whether Rose is even worthy of franchise player status. That remains to be seen. And Durant is 23 years old? He can still improve...a lot.

I think you overestimate Rose...waaaaaaaaaay to much...

 

[Diddy1122]

houheffna wrote:

Dude, watch Durant play...you obviously never watched him.

Another award-winning retort. A+ for originality.

I've watched Durant play since he was a Freshman at Texas. I can't watch every single play of every single game on the planet but believe me I know what Durant can do on the court. Hell I argued with Mark last season that he was the 2nd best player in the league. But I digress.

You compare Durant to Jerry West? Are you serious??? Rose is still working on his jumpshot. And Durant is taller than 6-9...

In the context of my argument, Yes, I compared West to Durant because I was talking about dominant wing scorers. If Durant is taller than 6-9 he maybe, maaaybe 6-10 tops. I don't even think that. NBA players in general are almost never their listed height (usually 1-2inches taller than real life) & Durant is not 7 ft, believe that.

I will call you a homer...thanks...you compare Durant to Jordan and say Rose can be better? What kind of sense does that make?

Misquoting, man you are so good at that. Jordan was a dominant wing. The best ever. Never once stated Rose was better or even remotely as good. Or that even Durant was as good. This was in the context of there being dominant scorers similar to Durant at the wings before.

Secondly...you compare Rose to Lebron...sorry, Lebron is a half a foot taller. And 75 pounds bigger. You must be watching that commercial with Little Lebron in it.

I'm scared now Hou. Do you have a camera on my house? How do you know what I'm watching all the time? I better start closing my shades more. Ok I'll sort of give you this one. I should've said he's Lebron at the point. He's bigger, stronger, more athletic & faster than almost anyone at his position.

Finally. Durant IS NOT a shooting guard. I take it from what you have stated that you haven't watched him much. Durant is a forward, he has shooting guard skills on the perimeter. That is what I was referring to. You pissed all over your own argument.

Ok I have to take back the A+ for originality now since you used the same insult twice in one post. I'll say B+ now. I did slip with the 2 guard, I was doing other things at work forgot to edit that. Anyway my argument was about dominant wing players. Hmmm I seem to remember that Durant plays on the wing. But then again I never watch any NBA games, I only come on here and comment like I do.

I'll state this out again & maybe it sinks in this time. I take Rose because there's never been a player like Rose at the PG spot. There have been players like Durant before, some better, some not as good, but Rose is a one of a kind player at his position. And the Bulls toying with calling him a franchise player? You must not watch alot of Bulls basketball to be making that statement.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Diddy1122 wrote:

You must not watch alot of Bulls basketball to be making that statement.

Zing :laugh:

 

[houheffna]

Ok I have to take back the A+ for originality now since you used the same insult twice in one post. I'll say B+ now. I did slip with the 2 guard, I was doing other things at work forgot to edit that. Anyway my argument was about dominant wing players. Hmmm I seem to remember that Durant plays on the wing. But then again I never watch any NBA games, I only come on here and comment like I do.

I'll state this out again & maybe it sinks in this time. I take Rose because there's never been a player like Rose at the PG spot. There have been players like Durant before, some better, some not as good, but Rose is a one of a kind player at his position. And the Bulls toying with calling him a franchise player? You must not watch alot of Bulls basketball to be making that statement.

Of the players you named comparable to Durant, none of them could do what he could do with his height and wingspan...none of them. That was my point. I asked you to name a player who is essentially a 7 foot shooting guard...the height of a power forward and the abilities of a shooting guard. None of those names fit the bill...and then you say Jerry West? Give me a break! West is more comparable to Rose than Durant.

You see the uniqueness in Rose's talents but not in Durant's talent? Makes no sense to me.

What does Alvin Gentry say?

"He's almost a 7-foot guy. That's the bottom line."

"I don't think you care who you put on him. What you can't do is you can't duplicate what he is, and that's a 6-11 guy with length and speed and shooting ability and ball-handling skills and things like that," Gentry said. "The closest guy is probably George Gervin, and he wasn't anywhere close to being as athletic or big as Durant is."

Gentry recalled seeing Durant standing next to the Suns' 6-foot-10 center, Amare Stoudemire, during the All-Star game and noticed that Durant was actually taller. Combine that with Durant's wingspan and it's hard to find anyone who can get a hand in the way of his jump shot.

Okay, there you have it...a 6-11 guard who can do damn near everything Rose can do...and a hell of a lot more. AND, they are only a week apart in age? C'mon son! You gotta open your eyes...Durant in a landslide here...there is no debate...

Durant is a better player right now than Gervin was...again, let's hope Rose can come close to being Isiah Thomas...which he is nowhere near at this time.

 

[Fred]

Maybe I should clarify my stance on this whole issue.

#1. I'm not saying that Rose is better than Durant. Obviously, Durant has been better in the regular season.
#2. But a HUGE part of how we judge great players is how they play in the playoffs. In fact, it's more important than the regular season. It's why there are people who think Kobe is better than LeBron, because LeBron was clearly better in the regular season. So when factoring in playoffs alone, Rose has clearly been better. There's no comparison.

I don't think enough has been made of how bad Durant was in that Lakers series. I think OK city could have pulled off an upset if he would have shown up. The rest of his team played great. In those 6 games, he didn't come close to showing up.

Kevin Durant
6 playoff games
38 mpg
35% shooting
28% from 3-point line
3.67 turnovers per game
Those numbers are absolutely terrible. Neither player is good defensively.

Derrick Rose
12 Playoff Games
43.8 MPG
47.3% shooting!!! 47.3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5.1 rebounds, 6.8 assists

So, Derrick has clearly been the better playoff performer. We'll see. I can completely understand why you would rather have Durant. But I didn't understand why someone would act like it's crazy to make the comparison. It's crazy to compare Kobe to MJ...it's not crazy to make an argument for Derrick Rose over Durant.

 

[theCHI_Life84]

KD could be an equivalent to lebron, minus the freak strength, but adding a ca$h jumper WITH RANGE. if he could learn to pass the ball like lebron, hed easily surpass him.

rose has a disadvantage against KD that will never change: size. however, POUND FOR POUND rose is a better athlete than KD - the reality is, KD has the height and length combined with the footwork that can pick apart ANY defender. quick defenders will be outsized and shot over. taller defenders will be left in the dust. tall and quick defenders will foul out. there is no way to guard this kid. he will reach lebron's level very soon.

calling rose "the pg version of lebron" is just wrong and physically impossible. lebron's size is what makes him special. rose will never be as tall or big as lebron, and will never be able to plow through a wall of kg and kendrick perkins for a slam. but, as we have seen, lebron can and does pass the ball as good as rose. KD STILL has potential to reach this level.

 

[theCHI_Life84]

Fred wrote:

Maybe I should clarify my stance on this whole issue.

#1. I'm not saying that Rose is better than Durant. Obviously, Durant has been better in the regular season.
#2. But a HUGE part of how we judge great players is how they play in the playoffs. In fact, it's more important than the regular season. It's why there are people who think Kobe is better than LeBron, because LeBron was clearly better in the regular season. So when factoring in playoffs alone, Rose has clearly been better. There's no comparison.

I don't think enough has been made of how bad Durant was in that Lakers series. I think OK city could have pulled off an upset if he would have shown up. The rest of his team played great. In those 6 games, he didn't come close to showing up.

Kevin Durant
6 playoff games
38 mpg
35% shooting
28% from 3-point line
3.67 turnovers per game
Those numbers are absolutely terrible. Neither player is good defensively.

Derrick Rose
12 Playoff Games
43.8 MPG
47.3% shooting!!! 47.3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5.1 rebounds, 6.8 assists

So, Derrick has clearly been the better playoff performer. We'll see. I can completely understand why you would rather have Durant. But I didn't understand why someone would act like it's crazy to make the comparison. It's crazy to compare Kobe to MJ...it's not crazy to make an argument for Derrick Rose over Durant.

this is what excites me the most, rose's playoff performance. we're in for a ride with this kid, for sure.

 

[TheStig]

Fred wrote:

Maybe I should clarify my stance on this whole issue.

#1. I'm not saying that Rose is better than Durant. Obviously, Durant has been better in the regular season.
#2. But a HUGE part of how we judge great players is how they play in the playoffs. In fact, it's more important than the regular season. It's why there are people who think Kobe is better than LeBron, because LeBron was clearly better in the regular season. So when factoring in playoffs alone, Rose has clearly been better. There's no comparison.

I don't think enough has been made of how bad Durant was in that Lakers series. I think OK city could have pulled off an upset if he would have shown up. The rest of his team played great. In those 6 games, he didn't come close to showing up.

Kevin Durant
6 playoff games
38 mpg
35% shooting
28% from 3-point line
3.67 turnovers per game
Those numbers are absolutely terrible. Neither player is good defensively.

Derrick Rose
12 Playoff Games
43.8 MPG
47.3% shooting!!! 47.3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5.1 rebounds, 6.8 assists

So, Derrick has clearly been the better playoff performer. We'll see. I can completely understand why you would rather have Durant. But I didn't understand why someone would act like it's crazy to make the comparison. It's crazy to compare Kobe to MJ...it's not crazy to make an argument for Derrick Rose over Durant.

Fred, Durant was guarded by Ron Artest. Rose was guarded by Mo Williams. The guy being guarded by a former dpoy is gonna shoot worse and turnover the ball more. Furthermore, fg% is more biased to a guy like Rose vs a guy like Durant who shoots threes. Their ts% are virtually identical in last years playoffs.

 

[pinkizdead]

TheStig wrote:

Fred wrote:

.

Fred, Durant was guarded by Ron Artest. Rose was guarded by Mo Williams. The guy being guarded by a former dpoy is gonna shoot worse and turnover the ball more. Furthermore, fg% is more biased to a guy like Rose vs a guy like Durant who shoots threes. Their ts% are virtually identical in last years playoffs.

couldnt disagree with you more.

it was derrick rose and noah v the cleveland cavaliers.

i think hinrich and deng might have played in two of those games. For the most part rose had shaq, lebron, varejo, big z, mo, west and parker guarding him and the painted area.

 

[pinkizdead]

also ron ron had plantir fascitis last year.

 

[houheffna]

So, Derrick has clearly been the better playoff performer. We'll see. I can completely understand why you would rather have Durant. But I didn't understand why someone would act like it's crazy to make the comparison. It's crazy to compare Kobe to MJ...it's not crazy to make an argument for Derrick Rose over Durant.

Someone would act like its crazy to make the comparison...maybe because its crazy to make the damn comparison? People are comparing a rather limited playoff sample these days to decide who the better players are? That is why stats are deceiving, and lends itself to lazy analysis. Of course, in this case statistical analysis is spot on when you can put a dozen exclamation points behind it. Rose first playoff series was not anything to write home about. He had good games, he also gave one of the most porous defensive performances I have ever seen.

Durant is 21 and already top 5 in the league. I believe Rose is barely top 5 at his position right now. Everyone is predicting his ascension to greatness. Durant is already there, and is the same age. When Rose can pass Paul, Deron Williams and Rondo at the pg position...clearly, then maybe there is a talk to be had.

I hope Rose becomes a great player. Comparing him right now to Lebron and Durant is over the top.

"These players -- I don't know how they get themselves into those positions, but they do an unbelievable job of hitting shots that are remarkable shots, marvelous shots," coach Phil Jackson said. "He's right there with Michael in that kind of breath you look at."

That is Phil comparing Kobe and Jordan's clutch play...now find me a sober GM that will take Rose over Durant and maybe we have an argument, otherwise, there is no argument to be had.

 

[pinkizdead]

well. if i had carmel already on my team, i'd take rose over durant. Durant is clearly better, but if roses reaches his potential, he's not out of the conversation.

 

[TheStig]

pinkizdead wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Fred wrote:

.

Fred, Durant was guarded by Ron Artest. Rose was guarded by Mo Williams. The guy being guarded by a former dpoy is gonna shoot worse and turnover the ball more. Furthermore, fg% is more biased to a guy like Rose vs a guy like Durant who shoots threes. Their ts% are virtually identical in last years playoffs.

couldnt disagree with you more.

it was derrick rose and noah v the cleveland cavaliers.

i think hinrich and deng might have played in two of those games. For the most part rose had shaq, lebron, varejo, big z, mo, west and parker guarding him and the painted area.

As did Durant. He had Westbrook and no one else of consequnece. Not to mention Deng put up nearly 19 a game off of 46% shooting. Are you telling me that Jeff Green was any better than Kirk? Not to mention their front court was so bad, Durant was the leading rebounder by a decent margin.

 

[Fred]

TheStig wrote:

Fred wrote:

Maybe I should clarify my stance on this whole issue.

#1. I'm not saying that Rose is better than Durant. Obviously, Durant has been better in the regular season.
#2. But a HUGE part of how we judge great players is how they play in the playoffs. In fact, it's more important than the regular season. It's why there are people who think Kobe is better than LeBron, because LeBron was clearly better in the regular season. So when factoring in playoffs alone, Rose has clearly been better. There's no comparison.

I don't think enough has been made of how bad Durant was in that Lakers series. I think OK city could have pulled off an upset if he would have shown up. The rest of his team played great. In those 6 games, he didn't come close to showing up.

Kevin Durant
6 playoff games
38 mpg
35% shooting
28% from 3-point line
3.67 turnovers per game
Those numbers are absolutely terrible. Neither player is good defensively.

Derrick Rose
12 Playoff Games
43.8 MPG
47.3% shooting!!! 47.3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5.1 rebounds, 6.8 assists

So, Derrick has clearly been the better playoff performer. We'll see. I can completely understand why you would rather have Durant. But I didn't understand why someone would act like it's crazy to make the comparison. It's crazy to compare Kobe to MJ...it's not crazy to make an argument for Derrick Rose over Durant.

Fred, Durant was guarded by Ron Artest. Rose was guarded by Mo Williams. The guy being guarded by a former dpoy is gonna shoot worse and turnover the ball more. Furthermore, fg% is more biased to a guy like Rose vs a guy like Durant who shoots threes. Their ts% are virtually identical in last years playoffs.

Didn't Rose put 35 up against Rondo in Game 1 last year? Unlike Artest, Rondo is 1st team All NBA in defense. Rondo is one of the best defensive point guards in the game. Ron Artest isn't the defender he used to be.