Chicago Bullseye 114 - Talk amongst yourselves

Fred

New member
Joined:
Mar 29, 2009
Posts:
982
Liked Posts:
7
houheffna wrote:
So, Derrick has clearly been the better playoff performer. We'll see. I can completely understand why you would rather have Durant. But I didn't understand why someone would act like it's crazy to make the comparison. It's crazy to compare Kobe to MJ...it's not crazy to make an argument for Derrick Rose over Durant.


Someone would act like its crazy to make the comparison...maybe because its crazy to make the damn comparison? People are comparing a rather limited playoff sample these days to decide who the better players are? That is why stats are deceiving, and lends itself to lazy analysis. Of course, in this case statistical analysis is spot on when you can put a dozen exclamation points behind it. Rose first playoff series was not anything to write home about. He had good games, he also gave one of the most porous defensive performances I have ever seen.

Durant is 21 and already top 5 in the league. I believe Rose is barely top 5 at his position right now. Everyone is predicting his ascension to greatness. Durant is already there, and is the same age. When Rose can pass Paul, Deron Williams and Rondo at the pg position...clearly, then maybe there is a talk to be had.

I hope Rose becomes a great player. Comparing him right now to Lebron and Durant is over the top.

"These players -- I don't know how they get themselves into those positions, but they do an unbelievable job of hitting shots that are remarkable shots, marvelous shots," coach Phil Jackson said. "He's right there with Michael in that kind of breath you look at."

That is Phil comparing Kobe and Jordan's clutch play...now find me a sober GM that will take Rose over Durant and maybe we have an argument, otherwise, there is no argument to be had.

You've got one quote from Phil comparing Kobe's clutch ability to Michael's. I've got about 100 more that I'll share in an upcoming show where Phil also compares the 2. It won't be as helpful to your argument.

Did you actually say you would take Rondo over Rose? OMG. Rondo has 3 HOF players on his team. What does Derrick have?
 

Fred

New member
Joined:
Mar 29, 2009
Posts:
982
Liked Posts:
7
houheffna wrote:
Durant is 21 and already top 5 in the league. I believe Rose is barely top 5 at his position right now. Everyone is predicting his ascension to greatness. Durant is already there, and is the same age. When Rose can pass Paul, Deron Williams and Rondo at the pg position...clearly, then maybe there is a talk to be had.

Kevin Durant is not top 5 in this league.

LeBron
Kobe
Wade
Howard
Carmelo

All of these players are better than Kevin Durant.
 

clonetrooper264

Retired Bandwagon Mod
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
Apr 11, 2009
Posts:
23,607
Liked Posts:
7,413
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  2. Golden State Warriors
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
Fred wrote:
TheStig wrote:
Fred wrote:
Maybe I should clarify my stance on this whole issue.

#1. I'm not saying that Rose is better than Durant. Obviously, Durant has been better in the regular season.
#2. But a HUGE part of how we judge great players is how they play in the playoffs. In fact, it's more important than the regular season. It's why there are people who think Kobe is better than LeBron, because LeBron was clearly better in the regular season. So when factoring in playoffs alone, Rose has clearly been better. There's no comparison.

I don't think enough has been made of how bad Durant was in that Lakers series. I think OK city could have pulled off an upset if he would have shown up. The rest of his team played great. In those 6 games, he didn't come close to showing up.

Kevin Durant
6 playoff games
38 mpg
35% shooting
28% from 3-point line
3.67 turnovers per game
Those numbers are absolutely terrible. Neither player is good defensively.

Derrick Rose
12 Playoff Games
43.8 MPG
47.3% shooting!!! 47.3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5.1 rebounds, 6.8 assists

So, Derrick has clearly been the better playoff performer. We'll see. I can completely understand why you would rather have Durant. But I didn't understand why someone would act like it's crazy to make the comparison. It's crazy to compare Kobe to MJ...it's not crazy to make an argument for Derrick Rose over Durant.

Fred, Durant was guarded by Ron Artest. Rose was guarded by Mo Williams. The guy being guarded by a former dpoy is gonna shoot worse and turnover the ball more. Furthermore, fg% is more biased to a guy like Rose vs a guy like Durant who shoots threes. Their ts% are virtually identical in last years playoffs.

Didn't Rose put 35 up against Rondo in Game 1 last year? Unlike Artest, Rondo is 1st team All NBA in defense. Rondo is one of the best defensive point guards in the game. Ron Artest isn't the defender he used to be.
Ron Artest is still one of the best defenders in the game, 1st team all defense or not.
 

mlewinth

New member
Joined:
Mar 31, 2009
Posts:
680
Liked Posts:
6
Fred wrote:
houheffna wrote:
Durant is 21 and already top 5 in the league. I believe Rose is barely top 5 at his position right now. Everyone is predicting his ascension to greatness. Durant is already there, and is the same age. When Rose can pass Paul, Deron Williams and Rondo at the pg position...clearly, then maybe there is a talk to be had.

Kevin Durant is not top 5 in this league.

LeBron
Kobe
Wade
Howard
Carmelo

All of these players are better than Kevin Durant.

I would take Durant over Carmello and very likely Howard.
 

TheStig

New member
Joined:
Apr 5, 2009
Posts:
3,636
Liked Posts:
38
Fred wrote:
TheStig wrote:
Fred wrote:
Maybe I should clarify my stance on this whole issue.

#1. I'm not saying that Rose is better than Durant. Obviously, Durant has been better in the regular season.
#2. But a HUGE part of how we judge great players is how they play in the playoffs. In fact, it's more important than the regular season. It's why there are people who think Kobe is better than LeBron, because LeBron was clearly better in the regular season. So when factoring in playoffs alone, Rose has clearly been better. There's no comparison.

I don't think enough has been made of how bad Durant was in that Lakers series. I think OK city could have pulled off an upset if he would have shown up. The rest of his team played great. In those 6 games, he didn't come close to showing up.

Kevin Durant
6 playoff games
38 mpg
35% shooting
28% from 3-point line
3.67 turnovers per game
Those numbers are absolutely terrible. Neither player is good defensively.

Derrick Rose
12 Playoff Games
43.8 MPG
47.3% shooting!!! 47.3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5.1 rebounds, 6.8 assists

So, Derrick has clearly been the better playoff performer. We'll see. I can completely understand why you would rather have Durant. But I didn't understand why someone would act like it's crazy to make the comparison. It's crazy to compare Kobe to MJ...it's not crazy to make an argument for Derrick Rose over Durant.

Fred, Durant was guarded by Ron Artest. Rose was guarded by Mo Williams. The guy being guarded by a former dpoy is gonna shoot worse and turnover the ball more. Furthermore, fg% is more biased to a guy like Rose vs a guy like Durant who shoots threes. Their ts% are virtually identical in last years playoffs.

Didn't Rose put 35 up against Rondo in Game 1 last year? Unlike Artest, Rondo is 1st team All NBA in defense. Rondo is one of the best defensive point guards in the game. Ron Artest isn't the defender he used to be.

Really, I didn't see Rondo's DPOY statue on his mantle. Unlike Rondo, Artest has one of those and has been on four all defense teams. And I was talking about this year anyway. You know, that Mo Williams guy with no trophies at all.

But how many other 30 point playoff games has Rose had against Rondo? I really wouldn't brag about that series, Rose had a 13.3 per.

I can't believe you dismiss a dpoy, 4 time all defense defender and best coach of all time.
 

TheStig

New member
Joined:
Apr 5, 2009
Posts:
3,636
Liked Posts:
38
Fred wrote:
houheffna wrote:
Durant is 21 and already top 5 in the league. I believe Rose is barely top 5 at his position right now. Everyone is predicting his ascension to greatness. Durant is already there, and is the same age. When Rose can pass Paul, Deron Williams and Rondo at the pg position...clearly, then maybe there is a talk to be had.

Kevin Durant is not top 5 in this league.

LeBron
Kobe
Wade
Howard
Carmelo

All of these players are better than Kevin Durant.

Last year he was. He was the scoring champ. I'd take him over Melo. Its not just me, he finished second in MVP votes, so quite a few people thought it too.
 

houheffna

Ignoring Idiots
Joined:
May 6, 2009
Posts:
8,673
Liked Posts:
2,711
You've got one quote from Phil comparing Kobe's clutch ability to Michael's. I've got about 100 more that I'll share in an upcoming show where Phil also compares the 2. It won't be as helpful to your argument.

Did you actually say you would take Rondo over Rose? OMG. Rondo has 3 HOF players on his team. What does Derrick have?

I have given many quotes from Phil comparing the 2. He was the first to start the comparisons. I have quotes from many others also. They are plastered all over this forum. I have shown video where he says they are comparable. I never heard him say that Kobe was better, but he does say that Kobe has some skills better than Jordan and shows in areas where Jordan is better than Kobe. I have posted quotes from Winter and Johnny Bach comparing the two as far as competitive nature, and if Kobe is on par with Jordan in clutch ability. What else do you need? Phil Jackson hates to compare the two, probably because people take it too personal. Which is sad.

I also posted Jordan and Kobe playing against each other in a game when Kobe was a 19 year old bench player. Did you see that? I think Kobe held his own in that game. Not bad for a teenager. You don't want to give him props because he is in LA? Cool, don't do it. I am giving an objective opinion. There will be many players in the future comparable to Jordan, and maybe some better players. And when it happens, I will have no problem in saying it. Kobe is top 5 in NBA history to me. I have him behind Jordan and Kareem. To say he is not comparable to Jordan is nothing but homer talk, plain and simple.

This Kobe/Jordan stuff sounds like someone trying to change the subject from a losing argument...find one quote from a GM in the NBA that would take Rose over Durant...just one. Would love to read it. Even Dumars wouldn't make that move...

I don't know about you but I have no problem, no problem, analyzing a players abilities without looking at who he plays with. The fact is all of those players say that Rondo is what makes the team go. He has ability. If he didn't, they would not be in contention right now. Those HOF players are older and not able to do what they used to do...lets not act like they are in their primes.

Also, it is easy to point out the 36 point game...you watched the series, and you didn't see Rondo doing his best Magic Johnson imitation in that series against Rose? You have to be kidding me. It seems you don't value defense very much. Perimeter defense is very, very important, and it was a big problem for Rose in that series. The only credible backcourt defender in that series was Hinrich. Unfortunately, he had to guard 2 wing players and a point at the same time...nobody can do that.

By the way, Rondo is not that great a defender on the ball, he is excellent at getting steals but he is not a very sound defender. Rondo's receiving all league honors has solely to do with him racking up steals. Chris Paul is all league defense also, and he is also sub par as a defender, but he has a lot of steals over the course of a season. Again, lazy analysis, done by just looking at stats by the voters.
 

houheffna

Ignoring Idiots
Joined:
May 6, 2009
Posts:
8,673
Liked Posts:
2,711
Kevin Durant is not top 5 in this league.

LeBron
Kobe
Wade
Howard
Carmelo

All of these players are better than Kevin Durant.

In the NBA, Durant is considered a top 5 player, who has a very good chance to be the best. When is the last time a 6'3" player was the best player in the game? Jerry West? That was 40 years ago. It doesn't happen in today's NBA. The chances of Durant being the best in the league are far higher than Rose being the best in the league. And its about skill, athleticism is secondary. Who would you rather have, Bird or Pippen? Pippen is a much more athletic player. And by the way, who cares what Durant could bench press...the ball is filled with air...not nickels and dimes. He scored 30ppg. He might score 35ppg on a routine basis real soon. And Rose is not 10x the athlete Durant is...that is an overstatement.

Since you disqualified both defensively, you can't tell me that Rose is a better offensive player than Durant...and they are both the same age! Again I hope Rose becomes the greatest player ever...that would be great...but its much more likely that Durant can do it than Rose...
 

Diddy1122

I ain't your pal dickface
Joined:
Mar 30, 2009
Posts:
4,459
Liked Posts:
1,155
Location:
Chicago
houheffna wrote:
find one quote from a GM in the NBA that would take Rose over Durant...just one. Would love to read it. Even Dumars wouldn't make that move...

:laugh: I'm not so sure on that one. He did just sign T-Mac. I am nominating Dumars for Worst GM of the past 3 years. I still can't believe they named this joker GM of the Decade over RC Buford. :woohoo:
 

houheffna

Ignoring Idiots
Joined:
May 6, 2009
Posts:
8,673
Liked Posts:
2,711
I'm not so sure on that one. He did just sign T-Mac. I am nominating Dumars for Worst GM of the past 3 years. I still can't believe they named this joker GM of the Decade over RC Buford.

Yeah...you are right, I should have thought of someone else.
 

TheStig

New member
Joined:
Apr 5, 2009
Posts:
3,636
Liked Posts:
38
clonetrooper264 wrote:
Fred wrote:
TheStig wrote:
Fred wrote:
Maybe I should clarify my stance on this whole issue.

#1. I'm not saying that Rose is better than Durant. Obviously, Durant has been better in the regular season.
#2. But a HUGE part of how we judge great players is how they play in the playoffs. In fact, it's more important than the regular season. It's why there are people who think Kobe is better than LeBron, because LeBron was clearly better in the regular season. So when factoring in playoffs alone, Rose has clearly been better. There's no comparison.

I don't think enough has been made of how bad Durant was in that Lakers series. I think OK city could have pulled off an upset if he would have shown up. The rest of his team played great. In those 6 games, he didn't come close to showing up.

Kevin Durant
6 playoff games
38 mpg
35% shooting
28% from 3-point line
3.67 turnovers per game
Those numbers are absolutely terrible. Neither player is good defensively.

Derrick Rose
12 Playoff Games
43.8 MPG
47.3% shooting!!! 47.3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5.1 rebounds, 6.8 assists

So, Derrick has clearly been the better playoff performer. We'll see. I can completely understand why you would rather have Durant. But I didn't understand why someone would act like it's crazy to make the comparison. It's crazy to compare Kobe to MJ...it's not crazy to make an argument for Derrick Rose over Durant.

Fred, Durant was guarded by Ron Artest. Rose was guarded by Mo Williams. The guy being guarded by a former dpoy is gonna shoot worse and turnover the ball more. Furthermore, fg% is more biased to a guy like Rose vs a guy like Durant who shoots threes. Their ts% are virtually identical in last years playoffs.

Didn't Rose put 35 up against Rondo in Game 1 last year? Unlike Artest, Rondo is 1st team All NBA in defense. Rondo is one of the best defensive point guards in the game. Ron Artest isn't the defender he used to be.
Ron Artest is still one of the best defenders in the game, 1st team all defense or not.

Its a crap point. Gary Payton and Ron Artest are the only perimeter based dpoy winners in the last 20 years. Ron Artest is an elite defender.
 

Fred

New member
Joined:
Mar 29, 2009
Posts:
982
Liked Posts:
7
TheStig wrote:
clonetrooper264 wrote:
Fred wrote:
TheStig wrote:
Fred wrote:
Maybe I should clarify my stance on this whole issue.

#1. I'm not saying that Rose is better than Durant. Obviously, Durant has been better in the regular season.
#2. But a HUGE part of how we judge great players is how they play in the playoffs. In fact, it's more important than the regular season. It's why there are people who think Kobe is better than LeBron, because LeBron was clearly better in the regular season. So when factoring in playoffs alone, Rose has clearly been better. There's no comparison.

I don't think enough has been made of how bad Durant was in that Lakers series. I think OK city could have pulled off an upset if he would have shown up. The rest of his team played great. In those 6 games, he didn't come close to showing up.

Kevin Durant
6 playoff games
38 mpg
35% shooting
28% from 3-point line
3.67 turnovers per game
Those numbers are absolutely terrible. Neither player is good defensively.

Derrick Rose
12 Playoff Games
43.8 MPG
47.3% shooting!!! 47.3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5.1 rebounds, 6.8 assists

So, Derrick has clearly been the better playoff performer. We'll see. I can completely understand why you would rather have Durant. But I didn't understand why someone would act like it's crazy to make the comparison. It's crazy to compare Kobe to MJ...it's not crazy to make an argument for Derrick Rose over Durant.

Fred, Durant was guarded by Ron Artest. Rose was guarded by Mo Williams. The guy being guarded by a former dpoy is gonna shoot worse and turnover the ball more. Furthermore, fg% is more biased to a guy like Rose vs a guy like Durant who shoots threes. Their ts% are virtually identical in last years playoffs.

Didn't Rose put 35 up against Rondo in Game 1 last year? Unlike Artest, Rondo is 1st team All NBA in defense. Rondo is one of the best defensive point guards in the game. Ron Artest isn't the defender he used to be.
Ron Artest is still one of the best defenders in the game, 1st team all defense or not.

Its a crap point. Gary Payton and Ron Artest are the only perimeter based dpoy winners in the last 20 years. Ron Artest is an elite defender.

You were trying to argue that the reason for Durant's horrible performance in the playoffs was due to Ron Artest. I pointed out that Rondo's excellent defense couldn't keep Derrick Rose in check.

I understand that Ron Artest was a great defender. He's still a very good one, but he ain't close to what he used to be. I'm not the only guy saying it (i.e. Bill Simmons, Jeff Van Gundy). It happens when you get old. Kevin Durant, if he wants to be considered the best of the best, needs to not suck in the playoffs, regardless of who is guarding him. Ben Wallace was a 3-time Defensive POY. Do you still consider him an elite defender? Obviously, RonRon isn't as close to the end as Wallace. But he didn't make NBA All Defense this year for a reason.
 

Fred

New member
Joined:
Mar 29, 2009
Posts:
982
Liked Posts:
7
Diddy1122 wrote:
houheffna wrote:
find one quote from a GM in the NBA that would take Rose over Durant...just one. Would love to read it. Even Dumars wouldn't make that move...

:laugh: I'm not so sure on that one. He did just sign T-Mac. I am nominating Dumars for Worst GM of the past 3 years. I still can't believe they named this joker GM of the Decade over RC Buford. :woohoo:

You do realize that last year was the first year that the Pisons didn't make the playoffs in almost 10 years? And our beloved Bulls made the playoffs by 1 game with the following list of injuries to their top 6

BULLS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
Rose 4
Deng 12
Hinrich 8
Noah 18
Gibson 0
Miller 0
= 42

PISTONS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
HAMILTON 36
STUCKEY 9
GORDON 20
PRINCE 33
CHARLIE V. 4
BYNUM 19
= 121

I guess the question is for you Diddy is how many wins do the Bulls have with 121 games missed due to injury? They won 41 with a 1/3 as many.

I'd trade Gar Forman for Joe Dumars in a heartbeat. At least he has built a title team in the past 10 years. We haven't been able to build a freaking 50 win team since MJ left.
 

houheffna

Ignoring Idiots
Joined:
May 6, 2009
Posts:
8,673
Liked Posts:
2,711
You were trying to argue that the reason for Durant's horrible performance in the playoffs was due to Ron Artest. I pointed out that Rondo's excellent defense couldn't keep Derrick Rose in check.

I understand that Ron Artest was a great defender. He's still a very good one, but he ain't close to what he used to be. I'm not the only guy saying it (i.e. Bill Simmons, Jeff Van Gundy). It happens when you get old. Kevin Durant, if he wants to be considered the best of the best, needs to not suck in the playoffs, regardless of who is guarding him. Ben Wallace was a 3-time Defensive POY. Do you still consider him an elite defender? Obviously, RonRon isn't as close to the end as Wallace. But he didn't make NBA All Defense this year for a reason.

Rose was outperformed drastically by his counterpart in the playoffs. Artest and Phil Jackson came up with a plan to physically rough Durant up because of his lack of size. Artest is a very skillful defender. He doesn't get after it like he used to...but he knows how to get after it. That said, Artest can defend his position better than Rondo can defend his position. And maybe you and others don't respect Durant, but Artest does...

Some more of Durant's skills or lack of skills analysis debunked in his "notoriously atrocious" postseason.

By Game 3 of Oklahoma City’s first-round playoff series against the Los Angeles Lakers, Durant had developed enough on the defensive end that he was asking to guard Kobe Bryant in the fourth quarter. He limited Bryant to 2-for-10 shooting while rediscovering his offense to lead the Thunder to a 101-96 win.

“That’s a very important lesson. The game of basketball, offensively you’re not going to be on every game. It’s just impossible,” Thunder coach Scott Brooks said.

“The greatest players of all times had bad shooting games and bad shooting slumps. He’s done a better job with that this year — but now he fully understands that. You have to do other things that help your team win.”

“It’s not easy to make him miss shots, but Kevin has an impact just because of his length and his activity,” Brooks said. “It’s hard to imagine us being a good defensive team without him. He’s been one of our better defenders, and it’s one of the reasons why we’ve improved this year is that he’s committed to playing defense.”

That was after he had damn near 30pts and 20rebs in game 3 against the Lakers.

By the way, here is Kobe Bryant on Durant's actual height...

The 6-foot-6 Bryant gives up nearly half a foot to Durant, who’s listed conservatively at 6-9.

“He’s long. He’s 7 feet. I don’t know that he wants to admit that he’s 7 feet but he’s 7 foot,” Bryant said. “He has great agility, great mobility and caught us all by surprise a little bit.”

His playoff was not as bad as advertised on this forum. Watching the games, he struggled offensively, but he also showed flashes of dominance. Last I remember, Rose's stellar defense in his first playoff turned Rondo into Magic Stockton...good luck with that.

Can't teach height, so when I say he is a 7 Foot shooting guard, I meant he is pretty much a skinny ass center who can score 30 points a game from the perimeter. There has never been a player like him before in this league, never. His ceiling is higher than Rose's ceiling. Durant has the chance to be the greatest offensive player the league has seen. Rose, we are hoping can be a great point guard...he is not even the best of his era, he is far, far from being the greatest at his position.
 

RPK

New member
Joined:
Mar 29, 2009
Posts:
287
Liked Posts:
0
Location:
Chicago, Illinois
Durant was able to challenge for the scoring title by his third season, I see no reason why Rose can't do the same.

Saying that, I'd still give the edge to Durant simply because it's much easier for him to get good looks because of scary combination of height/length. It's much easier for him to get good looks. His only slight flaw is his shot selection.
 

TheStig

New member
Joined:
Apr 5, 2009
Posts:
3,636
Liked Posts:
38
Fred wrote:
TheStig wrote:
clonetrooper264 wrote:
Fred wrote:
TheStig wrote:
Fred wrote:
Maybe I should clarify my stance on this whole issue.

#1. I'm not saying that Rose is better than Durant. Obviously, Durant has been better in the regular season.
#2. But a HUGE part of how we judge great players is how they play in the playoffs. In fact, it's more important than the regular season. It's why there are people who think Kobe is better than LeBron, because LeBron was clearly better in the regular season. So when factoring in playoffs alone, Rose has clearly been better. There's no comparison.

I don't think enough has been made of how bad Durant was in that Lakers series. I think OK city could have pulled off an upset if he would have shown up. The rest of his team played great. In those 6 games, he didn't come close to showing up.

Kevin Durant
6 playoff games
38 mpg
35% shooting
28% from 3-point line
3.67 turnovers per game
Those numbers are absolutely terrible. Neither player is good defensively.

Derrick Rose
12 Playoff Games
43.8 MPG
47.3% shooting!!! 47.3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5.1 rebounds, 6.8 assists

So, Derrick has clearly been the better playoff performer. We'll see. I can completely understand why you would rather have Durant. But I didn't understand why someone would act like it's crazy to make the comparison. It's crazy to compare Kobe to MJ...it's not crazy to make an argument for Derrick Rose over Durant.

Fred, Durant was guarded by Ron Artest. Rose was guarded by Mo Williams. The guy being guarded by a former dpoy is gonna shoot worse and turnover the ball more. Furthermore, fg% is more biased to a guy like Rose vs a guy like Durant who shoots threes. Their ts% are virtually identical in last years playoffs.

Didn't Rose put 35 up against Rondo in Game 1 last year? Unlike Artest, Rondo is 1st team All NBA in defense. Rondo is one of the best defensive point guards in the game. Ron Artest isn't the defender he used to be.
Ron Artest is still one of the best defenders in the game, 1st team all defense or not.

Its a crap point. Gary Payton and Ron Artest are the only perimeter based dpoy winners in the last 20 years. Ron Artest is an elite defender.

You were trying to argue that the reason for Durant's horrible performance in the playoffs was due to Ron Artest. I pointed out that Rondo's excellent defense couldn't keep Derrick Rose in check.

I understand that Ron Artest was a great defender. He's still a very good one, but he ain't close to what he used to be. I'm not the only guy saying it (i.e. Bill Simmons, Jeff Van Gundy). It happens when you get old. Kevin Durant, if he wants to be considered the best of the best, needs to not suck in the playoffs, regardless of who is guarding him. Ben Wallace was a 3-time Defensive POY. Do you still consider him an elite defender? Obviously, RonRon isn't as close to the end as Wallace. But he didn't make NBA All Defense this year for a reason.

Part of Rondo's excellent defense is due to having a dpoy player and a good defensive center playing behind him. They didn't have that dpoy player when we played them. If you throw Rondo on the knicks, he isn't gonna be on the 1st team defense.

Artest has slowed down but he is still a great defender. Bruce Bowen was still a top notch defender well past his prime. The only reason people are giving LAL a good chance against Miami is because they have two lock down defenders on the wing. Furthermore, its not like Durant had only Artest to deal with. He had a all time great coach and good bigs to deal with too. Rose couldn't dominate Mo Williams. I don't think his playoff performances are anything to write home about on a top 15 player like Rose.

Oklahoma played the worst team they could in the playoffs. The played the champs. They also matched up horribly against them as they have no front court and they still won two games. If they played anyone else, they'd have had a really good shot at winning the series. We played a significantly worse team that ended up losing in the next round and only won one game.
 

TheStig

New member
Joined:
Apr 5, 2009
Posts:
3,636
Liked Posts:
38
RPK wrote:
Durant was able to challenge for the scoring title by his third season, I see no reason why Rose can't do the same.

Saying that, I'd still give the edge to Durant simply because it's much easier for him to get good looks because of scary combination of height/length. It's much easier for him to get good looks. His only slight flaw is his shot selection.

What challenge, he won it last year.
 

TheStig

New member
Joined:
Apr 5, 2009
Posts:
3,636
Liked Posts:
38
Fred wrote:
Diddy1122 wrote:
houheffna wrote:
find one quote from a GM in the NBA that would take Rose over Durant...just one. Would love to read it. Even Dumars wouldn't make that move...

:laugh: I'm not so sure on that one. He did just sign T-Mac. I am nominating Dumars for Worst GM of the past 3 years. I still can't believe they named this joker GM of the Decade over RC Buford. :woohoo:

You do realize that last year was the first year that the Pisons didn't make the playoffs in almost 10 years? And our beloved Bulls made the playoffs by 1 game with the following list of injuries to their top 6

BULLS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
Rose 4
Deng 12
Hinrich 8
Noah 18
Gibson 0
Miller 0
= 42

PISTONS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
HAMILTON 36
STUCKEY 9
GORDON 20
PRINCE 33
CHARLIE V. 4
BYNUM 19
= 121

I guess the question is for you Diddy is how many wins do the Bulls have with 121 games missed due to injury? They won 41 with a 1/3 as many.

I'd trade Gar Forman for Joe Dumars in a heartbeat. At least he has built a title team in the past 10 years. We haven't been able to build a freaking 50 win team since MJ left.

Yeah, I don't get this beating up Joe Dumars. They guy beat a consistent contender with no superstars. He made the playoffs 8 years, 6 ecfs, 2 finals and a title in 10 years. What GM has really done better? RC Buford? Mitch Kupchick? And no one gives the guy a chance to rebuild. We went through 10 years post MJ and Joe D can't even be out of the playoffs for a injury filled year to rebuild? What do you expect him to do? He lost Billups, Ben Wallace (for a few years) and Rasheed Wallace from those title teams. How many teams lose 3/5 of their title starters and continue to do well?
 

clonetrooper264

Retired Bandwagon Mod
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
Apr 11, 2009
Posts:
23,607
Liked Posts:
7,413
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Cubs
  1. Chicago Bulls
  2. Golden State Warriors
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
Fred wrote:
Diddy1122 wrote:
houheffna wrote:
find one quote from a GM in the NBA that would take Rose over Durant...just one. Would love to read it. Even Dumars wouldn't make that move...

:laugh: I'm not so sure on that one. He did just sign T-Mac. I am nominating Dumars for Worst GM of the past 3 years. I still can't believe they named this joker GM of the Decade over RC Buford. :woohoo:

You do realize that last year was the first year that the Pisons didn't make the playoffs in almost 10 years? And our beloved Bulls made the playoffs by 1 game with the following list of injuries to their top 6

BULLS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
Rose 4
Deng 12
Hinrich 8
Noah 18
Gibson 0
Miller 0
= 42

PISTONS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
HAMILTON 36
STUCKEY 9
GORDON 20
PRINCE 33
CHARLIE V. 4
BYNUM 19
= 121

I guess the question is for you Diddy is how many wins do the Bulls have with 121 games missed due to injury? They won 41 with a 1/3 as many.

I'd trade Gar Forman for Joe Dumars in a heartbeat. At least he has built a title team in the past 10 years. We haven't been able to build a freaking 50 win team since MJ left.
Well there's a chance we get a 50 win team this year for whatever that's worth in your eyes.
 

pinkizdead

New member
Joined:
Mar 30, 2009
Posts:
3,692
Liked Posts:
131
Location:
south loop
How everyone is a dumar apologist, but no one is a krause apologist. dumars assembled a good core in rip, prince, billups and sheed. When they lost billups they really started to suck. After they lost sheed they lost their entire front court. The fact that he picked 6 good starting players doesnt excuse the absolute crap he's drafted. daye, darko, yeah. great gm.
 

Top