Chicago Bullseye 114 - Talk amongst yourselves

[Fred]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Fred wrote:

Diddy1122 wrote:

houheffna wrote:

find one quote from a GM in the NBA that would take Rose over Durant...just one. Would love to read it. Even Dumars wouldn't make that move...

:laugh: I'm not so sure on that one. He did just sign T-Mac. I am nominating Dumars for Worst GM of the past 3 years. I still can't believe they named this joker GM of the Decade over RC Buford. :woohoo:

You do realize that last year was the first year that the Pisons didn't make the playoffs in almost 10 years? And our beloved Bulls made the playoffs by 1 game with the following list of injuries to their top 6

BULLS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
Rose 4
Deng 12
Hinrich 8
Noah 18
Gibson 0
Miller 0
= 42

PISTONS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
HAMILTON 36
STUCKEY 9
GORDON 20
PRINCE 33
CHARLIE V. 4
BYNUM 19
= 121

I guess the question is for you Diddy is how many wins do the Bulls have with 121 games missed due to injury? They won 41 with a 1/3 as many.

I'd trade Gar Forman for Joe Dumars in a heartbeat. At least he has built a title team in the past 10 years. We haven't been able to build a freaking 50 win team since MJ left.

Well there's a chance we get a 50 win team this year for whatever that's worth in your eyes.

I'd agree, barring injuries, we should win 50 or more this year. Then again, don't you have to expect injuries with guys like Deng/Boozer. I hope we're healthy, but I don't expect to be. That said, I'm not sure how your point is relevant to the argument on Joe Dumars as a GM. He's built 7 50+ win teams since 2001. Our management team has built 0. These are the facts. I don't quite understand why such a massive Reinsdorf/Krause defender like Houheffna, or any Bulls fan for that matter, can have the stones to make fun of Joe Dumars. Pretty ridiculous if you ask me, when the best thing our management team has done in the past 10 years has been to win the 1.8% Derrick Rose lottery. Didn't take a lot of intelligence to do that.

 

[TheStig]

pinkizdead wrote:

How everyone is a dumar apologist, but no one is a krause apologist. dumars assembled a good core in rip, prince, billups and sheed. When they lost billups they really started to suck. After they lost sheed they lost their entire front court. The fact that he picked 6 good starting players doesnt excuse the absolute crap he's drafted. daye, darko, yeah. great gm.

Dumars didn't inherit the goat of all time. I didn't see a MJ on his roster anywhere. Dumars took a bunch of discarded peices that he assembled and made them a contender. He had Rodney White and Darko Millic in a similar time frame. Krause had Pippen, Sellers, Lee, Grant, Perdue and King. What he did, without a all time great is amazing. You don't see runs like that.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Fred wrote:

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Fred wrote:

Diddy1122 wrote:

houheffna wrote:

find one quote from a GM in the NBA that would take Rose over Durant...just one. Would love to read it. Even Dumars wouldn't make that move...

:laugh: I'm not so sure on that one. He did just sign T-Mac. I am nominating Dumars for Worst GM of the past 3 years. I still can't believe they named this joker GM of the Decade over RC Buford. :woohoo:

You do realize that last year was the first year that the Pisons didn't make the playoffs in almost 10 years? And our beloved Bulls made the playoffs by 1 game with the following list of injuries to their top 6

BULLS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
Rose 4
Deng 12
Hinrich 8
Noah 18
Gibson 0
Miller 0
= 42

PISTONS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
HAMILTON 36
STUCKEY 9
GORDON 20
PRINCE 33
CHARLIE V. 4
BYNUM 19
= 121

I guess the question is for you Diddy is how many wins do the Bulls have with 121 games missed due to injury? They won 41 with a 1/3 as many.

I'd trade Gar Forman for Joe Dumars in a heartbeat. At least he has built a title team in the past 10 years. We haven't been able to build a freaking 50 win team since MJ left.

Well there's a chance we get a 50 win team this year for whatever that's worth in your eyes.

I'd agree, barring injuries, we should win 50 or more this year. Then again, don't you have to expect injuries with guys like Deng/Boozer. I hope we're healthy, but I don't expect to be. That said, I'm not sure how your point is relevant to the argument on Joe Dumars as a GM. He's built 7 50+ win teams since 2001. Our management team has built 0. These are the facts. I don't quite understand why such a massive Reinsdorf/Krause defender like Houheffna, or any Bulls fan for that matter, can have the stones to make fun of Joe Dumars. Pretty ridiculous if you ask me, when the best thing our management team has done in the past 10 years has been to win the 1.8% Derrick Rose lottery. Didn't take a lot of intelligence to do that.

There wasn't really a point, I just was saying that we might have a 50 win team this year for the first time in over a decade.

 

[houheffna]

Dumars didn't inherit the goat of all time. I didn't see a MJ on his roster anywhere. Dumars took a bunch of discarded peices that he assembled and made them a contender. He had Rodney White and Darko Millic in a similar time frame. Krause had Pippen, Sellers, Lee, Grant, Perdue and King. What he did, without a all time great is amazing. You don't see runs like that.

I like much more what Foreman did with his FA dollars than what Dumars did with his. HOw people can so easily knock Krause after 6 titles and put Dumars on a pedestal after one is far beyond me. Dumars didn't discover Larry Brown, who doesn't get much credit for the team's successes. I wouldn't want Dumars anywhere near my team. He spent how much money last year overpaying Gordon and Charlie V, only to try to trade them under everyone's noses this summer?

Damn near every move since drafting Milicic has been monumentally stupid. I think Krause was superior at drafting players...and he wasn't very good at it. But Pippen outranks them all. But I don't want to turn this into Dumars vs. Krause...really that is no contest.

 

[Fred]

pinkizdead wrote:

How everyone is a dumar apologist, but no one is a krause apologist. dumars assembled a good core in rip, prince, billups and sheed. When they lost billups they really started to suck. After they lost sheed they lost their entire front court. The fact that he picked 6 good starting players doesnt excuse the absolute crap he's drafted. daye, darko, yeah. great gm.

There shouldn't be any Krause apologists, because he was a complete disaster when he took control of a team that didn't have the best player of All-Time on it. The 2001 draft alone showed how incredibly moronic he was. The Bulls basically took Tyson Chandler ahead of Pau Gasol in that draft. (The Clippers could have taken Gasol and traded him to us for Brand). Everyone likes to point out who was taken after Darko, who at least is stil in the league. What kind of talent was taken after Curry/Chandler? Besides Gasol (Picked 3rd after Chandler), the Bulls passed on Jason Richardson, Joe Johnson, and Gerald Wallace and Tony Parker. How about missing on Amare for Jay Williams?

The vast majority of Dumars' trades and draft pics were home runs, especially when you consider where these players were drafted. That Grant Hill trade won the Pisons the 2004 Championship over the Lakers, along with the Wallace trade. What trades have the Bulls made that come close to approaching those 2?:

Notable trades
Grant Hill, traded for Chucky Atkins and Ben Wallace in 2000.
Jerome Williams, traded for Corliss Williamson in 2001.
Jerry Stackhouse, traded for Richard Hamilton in 2002.
Michael Curry, traded for Lindsey Hunter in 2003.

Zeljko Rebraca, Bob Sura, Chucky Atkins, Lindsey Hunter and two first round picks, traded for Rasheed Wallace and Mike James in 2004; Hunter would return to the team a week later.

Draft picks
Mehmet Okur in the second round with the 38th overall pick in the 2001 NBA Draft.

Tayshaun Prince in the first round with the 23rd overall pick in the 2002 NBA Draft.

Jason Maxiell in the first round with the 26th pick in the 2005 NBA Draft.

Rodney Stuckey in the first round with the 15th overall pick in the 2007 NBA Draft.

Arron Afflalo in the first round with the 27th overall pick in the 2007 NBA Draft.

Free agent signings:
Chauncey Billups

COACHES:
Rick Carlisle (coach)
Larry Brown (coach)
Flip Saunders (coach)

Then again, his coaching picks don't compare to the likes of Tim Floyd and Vinny Del Negro.

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

HOw people can so easily knock Krause after 6 titles and put Dumars on a pedestal after one is far beyond me. .

Well, again, it's a pretty simple concept. Michael Jordan is the best player of All-time. Krause didn't draft him. Krause took over a roster with him already on it. There are only 5 guys on a basketball court...if you already have the Greatest of all time, you're job is probably 1000 times easier than what Joe Dumars took over. And there isn't a player on the 2004 NBA Champion Pistons that Krause couldn't have acquired with possible exception of Wallace. He was too utterly incompetant to pick any of them up.

Or are you going to argue that if, God forbid, Pat Riley died today, and the Heat's next GM goes on to win 7 titles...well, that next GM is one of the greatest of All-Time. There are a ton of GMs who could do that job.

 

[theCHI_Life84]

krause and dumars were put in different situations during their tenures, krause inherited a GOAT and won 6 titles, dumars inherited nothing, built a perennial contender out of it, but only got 1 ring. both are impressive. both made crap decisions after their glory-runs. but i think the bulls' post-jordan management before rose has been far worse than dumars' darko and beyond.

trading elton brand for tyson chandler? choosing tyrus thomas over lamarcus aldridge? the hirings of sub-par coaching staffs?

you might say bg is overpaid, but so was kirk, luol deng, and ben wallace when we had him. and charlie V is a more tradeable asset than luol is right now. they have similar games (jumpshooting, skinny sf's) but charlie v gets paid like 5 mil less.

losing billups and blowing up the core, it was obvious something needed to be done. what more do you expect from a team that is rebuilding. the year they lost billups, they still managed to go 41-41. the year after jordan left, what was the bulls record then?

 

[mlewinth]

theCHI_Life84 wrote:

krause and dumars were put in different situations during their tenures, krause inherited a GOAT and won 6 titles, dumars inherited nothing, built a perennial contender out of it, but only got 1 ring. both are impressive. both made crap decisions after their glory-runs. but i think the bulls' post-jordan management before rose has been far worse than dumars' darko and beyond.

trading elton brand for tyson chandler? choosing tyrus thomas over lamarcus aldridge? the hirings of sub-par coaching staffs?

you might say bg is overpaid, but so was kirk, luol deng, and ben wallace when we had him. and charlie V is a more tradeable asset than luol is right now. they have similar games (jumpshooting, skinny sf's) but charlie v gets paid like 5 mil less.

losing billups and blowing up the core, it was obvious something needed to be done. what more do you expect from a team that is rebuilding. the year they lost billups, they still managed to go 41-41. the year after jordan left, what was the bulls record then?

You kinda mish moshed a few eras together here brotha. The only Krause move in that whole list was Chandler for Brand. The rest were Paxson.

 

[theCHI_Life84]

mlewinth wrote:

theCHI_Life84 wrote:

krause and dumars were put in different situations during their tenures, krause inherited a GOAT and won 6 titles, dumars inherited nothing, built a perennial contender out of it, but only got 1 ring. both are impressive. both made crap decisions after their glory-runs. but i think the bulls' post-jordan management before rose has been far worse than dumars' darko and beyond.

trading elton brand for tyson chandler? choosing tyrus thomas over lamarcus aldridge? the hirings of sub-par coaching staffs?

you might say bg is overpaid, but so was kirk, luol deng, and ben wallace when we had him. and charlie V is a more tradeable asset than luol is right now. they have similar games (jumpshooting, skinny sf's) but charlie v gets paid like 5 mil less.

losing billups and blowing up the core, it was obvious something needed to be done. what more do you expect from a team that is rebuilding. the year they lost billups, they still managed to go 41-41. the year after jordan left, what was the bulls record then?

You kinda mish moshed a few eras together here brotha. The only Krause move in that whole list was Chandler for Brand. The rest were Paxson.

youre right about that, i was kind of comparing dumars tenure with the the whole post-jordan bulls, trying to make the point that while dumars was supposedly sucking it up as gm, the bulls were doing worse. i suppose i kind of went off on a tangent. my bad

 

[theCHI_Life84]

and im not saying one is better than the other in regards to dumars and krause, but you certainly cant argue that either was leaps and bounds over the other because of the situations they were actually put in. BUT if you swap these guys' shoes, im sure that dumars could easily have done what krause did and possibly more. i cant say the same about krause in dumars' shoes.

 

[houheffna]

I'm sorry, but who drafted Pippen? Michael won nothing without Pippen...nothing. Pip trade trumps all Dumars moves. Phil Jackson? Anybody heard of him? 1994 Bulls were contenders without Jordan...everybody seems to think it's so easy to win with a superstar...look at Cleveland. And please give me a break concerning Dumars 1 title. Krause has 6. He drafted a hof player and brought in arguably the greatest coach in ANY professional sport. Dumars is not on that level.

 

[Fred]

houheffna wrote:

I'm sorry, but who drafted Pippen? Michael won nothing without Pippen...nothing. Pip trade trumps all Dumars moves. Phil Jackson? Anybody heard of him? 1994 Bulls were contenders without Jordan...everybody seems to think it's so easy to win with a superstar...look at Cleveland. And please give me a break concerning Dumars 1 title. Krause has 6. He drafted a hof player and brought in arguably the greatest coach in ANY professional sport. Dumars is not on that level.

Actually, Pippen didn't play half the season in 98. In the playoffs, he shot 41% from the field, 22% from the 3-point line, and 67% from the free throw line. And in the deciding game that Michael won with the famous shot against Utah, Scottie played less than about 25 minutes and scored all of 8 points. So I think you can make an argument that MJ did win a title without Scottie. Maybe you should re-watch Jordan scoring 63 on the eventual world champion 1986 Celtics...and notice the pile of crap playing around him, but still giving that team all that it could handle.. "I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us," marveled Celtics ace Larry Bird. "He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan."

Without MJ, the best they could do with Scottie leading the charge was lose in the 2nd round to the Knicks...only slightly better than what the 07 Bulls did. The Bulls were about a .500 team before Jordan came back in 05, post-Grant.

Don't tell me that Jordan wouldn't have won a title without a Pippen. But if you insist, 2 can play that game:

Kobe won nothing without Derrick Fisher....nothing.

Obviously, Pippen was a great player. But are you really going to argue that if Scottie Pippen never existed, Michael Jordan would have zero titles? Somewhere along the line, even a jerk as incompetant as Krause would have been able to surround him with the talent to win at least one.

 

[houheffna]

Kobe won nothing without Derrick Fisher....nothing.

Obviously, Pippen was a great player. But are you really going to argue that if Scottie Pippen never existed, Michael Jordan would have zero titles? Somewhere along the line, even a jerk as incompetant as Krause would have been able to surround him with the talent to win at least one.

You bring up 1998? Seriously? That is reaching...Pippen was an MVP caliber player in his prime...I am sorry you missed that part of his career. He was arguably the greatest perimeter defender in league history. I know you don't care much for perimeter defense, which explains your love for Gordon, but it is very important, and THE reason those Bulls teams were so great.

I am arguing that Pippen was an integral part of those championship teams. Your comparing him to Fisher is laughable. Good luck with that.

I am using facts, you are using a Ouija board...lol Jordan won nothing without another great player beside him. Nothing. Where did he go without Pippen? Did he even get out of the first round? No...matter of fact, over the course of their careers, Pippen came closer without Jordan to a title than Jordan ever did without Pippen. Pippen would win 55 games without Jordan, 2 games less than the previous year with Jordan in his prime. Just a fact...you are saying that without Pippen, Jordan would have won 1, with Pippen, Jordan had a dynasty! What is the argument?

NO one player can make a dynasty by himself. It just doesn't happen.

Actually, Pippen didn't play half the season in 98. In the playoffs, he shot 41% from the field, 22% from the 3-point line, and 67% from the free throw line. And in the deciding game that Michael won with the famous shot against Utah, Scottie played less than about 25 minutes and scored all of 8 points. So I think you can make an argument that MJ did win a title without Scottie. Maybe you should re-watch Jordan scoring 63 on the eventual world champion 1986 Celtics...and notice the pile of crap playing around him, but still giving that team all that it could handle.. "I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us," marveled Celtics ace Larry Bird. "He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan."

I watched part of that game that he scored 63 points in. I believe they lost that game...and were swept out of the playoffs.

Jordan didn't win until Pippen became a great player, and a team leader. Point blank. We can throw out all kinds of wild scenarios about whether Jordan could have won or not...evidence showed that he needed another great player to win...and having a great coach didn't hurt either. Those components were there thanks to Jerry Krause, nothing anybody says can change that. And based on his contributions to the team, Krause deserves a banner for it.

 

[mlewinth]

Can we stop bitching about this for a moment and just enjoy the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oACRt-Qp-s

 

[Diddy1122]

Fred wrote:

Diddy1122 wrote:

houheffna wrote:

find one quote from a GM in the NBA that would take Rose over Durant...just one. Would love to read it. Even Dumars wouldn't make that move...

:laugh: I'm not so sure on that one. He did just sign T-Mac. I am nominating Dumars for Worst GM of the past 3 years. I still can't believe they named this joker GM of the Decade over RC Buford. :woohoo:

You do realize that last year was the first year that the Pisons didn't make the playoffs in almost 10 years? And our beloved Bulls made the playoffs by 1 game with the following list of injuries to their top 6

BULLS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
Rose 4
Deng 12
Hinrich 8
Noah 18
Gibson 0
Miller 0
= 42

PISTONS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
HAMILTON 36
STUCKEY 9
GORDON 20
PRINCE 33
CHARLIE V. 4
BYNUM 19
= 121

I guess the question is for you Diddy is how many wins do the Bulls have with 121 games missed due to injury? They won 41 with a 1/3 as many.

I'd trade Gar Forman for Joe Dumars in a heartbeat. At least he has built a title team in the past 10 years. We haven't been able to build a freaking 50 win team since MJ left.

Ah Fred, your mancrush on Dumars never ceases to amaze me. Look I think he's a very good GM but over the past 3 years he's not been good. I think even you could admit to that. I never said I wouldn't have him as my GM or that he's horrible. I didn't compare last years team to last years Bulls, which seriously man, the Pistons were not a good team last year, injuries or not. Dumars has been very haphazard in his acquistions the past few years. Christ he just signed T-Mac! Explain to me why a GM would sign a wing player with no D when his team is overflowing with them? Jesus they have no front court depth & all he keeps doing is adding backcourt players. It could be about that time for the Pistons to be in the market for a new GM if he continues down this path.

 

[Diddy1122]

Fred wrote:

Don't tell me that Jordan wouldn't have won a title without a Pippen. But if you insist, 2 can play that game:

Kobe won nothing without Derrick Fisher....nothing.

Obviously, Pippen was a great player. But are you really going to argue that if Scottie Pippen never existed, Michael Jordan would have zero titles? Somewhere along the line, even a jerk as incompetant as Krause would have been able to surround him with the talent to win at least one.

Even though talent wise they are far apart, Fred does kind of have a point. Fisher hit some big shots in his career for LA. Ditto for Robert Horry. However I don't think they wouldn't win without those 2 but MJ was the GOAT & I'm fairly certain he could've won without Scottie. But I will add this. It would've taken a player atleast close to Scottie ability for that to happen. As much as we all hate the Miami Thrice, it takes stars to win in this league.

But keep going guys. It makes for good reading.

Fred: Krause is a wretched waste of space.
Hou: You don't watch basketball.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[houheffna]

Even though talent wise they are far apart, Fred does kind of have a point. Fisher hit some big shots in his career for LA. Ditto for Robert Horry. However I don't think they wouldn't win without those 2 but MJ was the GOAT & I'm fairly certain he could've won without Scottie. But I will add this. It would've taken a player atleast close to Scottie ability for that to happen. As much as we all hate the Miami Thrice, it takes stars to win in this league.

That is my point, it would have taken another great player for Jordan to win titles, or he would have won titles before Pippen got there, and definitely before Pippen started to play at a high level. Jordan is the GOAT, before him was Wilt, Kareeem, Magic, Bird, Russell, all of them needed great players to win titles. Pippen deserves his just due, and so does Krause for bringing him here...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

I like much more what Foreman did with his FA dollars than what Dumars did with his. HOw people can so easily knock Krause after 6 titles and put Dumars on a pedestal after one is far beyond me. Dumars didn't discover Larry Brown, who doesn't get much credit for the team's successes. I wouldn't want Dumars anywhere near my team. He spent how much money last year overpaying Gordon and Charlie V, only to try to trade them under everyone's noses this summer?

If Boozer had opted out last year, Dumars would have made him an offer but he signed one of the best fas in BG that summer. I still don't think that was a bad signing, he was doing very well before he got injured. There really weren't many other options available and he didn't want to start a full rebuild. I know you don't like BG but he is a good piece to have.

Damn near every move since drafting Milicic has been monumentally stupid. I think Krause was superior at drafting players...and he wasn't very good at it. But Pippen outranks them all. But I don't want to turn this into Dumars vs. Krause...really that is no contest.

Krause had one good draft. Dumars has drafted a lot of talent with late firsts or 2nd rounders. Prince and Okur trump all of Krause's late picks. The only one that can enter the discusion is Kukoc. But outside of Grant and Pippen, Krause drafted busts with his lotto picks. I mean really Curry, Chandler, Williams, Sellers, King, Purdue, Fizer and Crawford. I can't call him good at drafting, there are just too many blown lotto picks. Outside of three good picks and a no brainer, he was terrible. Dumars may have blown one pick but he has done well otherwise. I also can't really get on him for drafting a project the year he won a title.

 

[TheStig]

Diddy1122 wrote:

Fred wrote:

Diddy1122 wrote:

houheffna wrote:

find one quote from a GM in the NBA that would take Rose over Durant...just one. Would love to read it. Even Dumars wouldn't make that move...

:laugh: I'm not so sure on that one. He did just sign T-Mac. I am nominating Dumars for Worst GM of the past 3 years. I still can't believe they named this joker GM of the Decade over RC Buford. :woohoo:

You do realize that last year was the first year that the Pisons didn't make the playoffs in almost 10 years? And our beloved Bulls made the playoffs by 1 game with the following list of injuries to their top 6

BULLS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
Rose 4
Deng 12
Hinrich 8
Noah 18
Gibson 0
Miller 0
= 42

PISTONS TOP 6 SCORERS (GAMES MISSED):
HAMILTON 36
STUCKEY 9
GORDON 20
PRINCE 33
CHARLIE V. 4
BYNUM 19
= 121

I guess the question is for you Diddy is how many wins do the Bulls have with 121 games missed due to injury? They won 41 with a 1/3 as many.

I'd trade Gar Forman for Joe Dumars in a heartbeat. At least he has built a title team in the past 10 years. We haven't been able to build a freaking 50 win team since MJ left.

Ah Fred, your mancrush on Dumars never ceases to amaze me. Look I think he's a very good GM but over the past 3 years he's not been good. I think even you could admit to that. I never said I wouldn't have him as my GM or that he's horrible. I didn't compare last years team to last years Bulls, which seriously man, the Pistons were not a good team last year, injuries or not. Dumars has been very haphazard in his acquistions the past few years.

Christ he just signed T-Mac! Explain to me why a GM would sign a wing player with no D when his team is overflowing with them?

Jesus they have no front court depth & all he keeps doing is adding backcourt players. It could be about that time for the Pistons to be in the market for a new GM if he continues down this path.

Its called buy low sell high. Plus Rip is clearly not in their long term plans. Without him, everyone has a role.

 

[houheffna]

If Boozer had opted out last year, Dumars would have made him an offer but he signed one of the best fas in BG that summer. I still don't think that was a bad signing, he was doing very well before he got injured. There really weren't many other options available and he didn't want to start a full rebuild. I know you don't like BG but he is a good piece to have.

He overpaid for him...that is the point, he could have gotten him for 10-15mil less over the course of the contract. And people on here were saying he was the best fa available. Over Odom, Hedo, Ariza, Artest...people said he was the top dog. He wasn't, and he shouldn't have gotten that much money. Dumars bid against himself...and still lost...