Chicago Bullseye 114 - Talk amongst yourselves

[Kush77]

Pippen's defense was unreal in that series. The whole team was but Pip's defense would have won him MVP.

He only scored 10 points in Game 3 but it doesn't matter because the Bulls won by 42 in the greatest defensive performance ever put on by one team.

So basically Jordan scored more points, he always did. not new. But voters would have gave Pip his props because of his D in that series. Coming off his D in the Pacers series to when he was shutting down Mark Jackson.

 

[houheffna]

You say Pippen made it further than Jordan because of what he did with Portland in 2000. If Jordan was on that team the Blazers win the title, bottom line.

So to say Pip made it further as some sort of shot at Jordan is silly. Simple as that.

Its not silly its fact. I didn't take a shot at Jordan, I was stating the facts!

I never once said Pippen was better than Jordan. I did say he was more successful without Jordan than Jordan was without him...that is a fact! Jordan never played on a contending team without Pippen, Pippen played on a couple of contenders without Jordan...plain and simple. Pippen deserves his due for bringing both tangible and intangible assets to the table...is that not the case?

You are dealing with "ifs", I am dealing with facts. That is how I get down man...don't deal with a lot of ifs, those are infinite possibilities. I deal more with the truth. The truth shall set you free, Rev. Kush...if you let it...

 

[TheStig]

Hou, its a rocky compariosn. That portland team was stacked, MJ's early bulls teams and Wiz teams were basically him.

 

[houheffna]

On those Wizards teams Jordan was as much a part of the problem as the solution. Which is why they fired him...

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

houheffna wrote:

On those Wizards teams Jordan was as much a part of the problem as the solution. Which is why they fired him...

You're really taking a serious look at a Michael Jordan FOUR YEARS removed from the league, who was 40 years old and playing half-hurt on a terrible Washington Wizards team to Pippen remaining in the league several years and playing for stacked teams?

C'mon dude.

 

[houheffna]

You're really taking a serious look at a Michael Jordan FOUR YEARS removed from the league, who was 40 years old and playing half-hurt on a terrible Washington Wizards team to Pippen remaining in the league several years and playing for stacked teams?

C'mon dude.

Yes, the Wiz were brought up and I gave an assessment of him on and off the court....Dude...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

On those Wizards teams Jordan was as much a part of the problem as the solution. Which is why they fired him...

LOL you show me a player who did better at age 38-40. The only guys that you can even compare are bigs like Kareem and Malone. No other perimeter player is in the discussion. Please MJ was the whole team and that team wouldn't have won half as many games without him. They were his injury away from making the playoffs after just winning the lotto the year before. Did you watch any of those games? This has to be the dumbest thing you have ever said and an extreme case of basketball retardation. Nonsense. The guy improved their record 18 games and he was as big of a problem as solution.

 

[Shakes]

John Stockton comes to mind as another guard who was still pretty good at 38-40 as well (although he was obviously playing reduced minutes by that point in his career and so his per game numbers suffered a bit).

But yeah, most 38 year old guards have been retired for 5 years, so to complain Jordan wasn't at his peak then is pretty unfair. Especially since at 38 Pippen's shooting percentage had dipped below his age.

 

[Bullsman24]

TheStig wrote:

Fred wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Fred wrote:

Maybe I should clarify my stance on this whole issue.

#1. I'm not saying that Rose is better than Durant. Obviously, Durant has been better in the regular season.
#2. But a HUGE part of how we judge great players is how they play in the playoffs. In fact, it's more important than the regular season. It's why there are people who think Kobe is better than LeBron, because LeBron was clearly better in the regular season. So when factoring in playoffs alone, Rose has clearly been better. There's no comparison.

I don't think enough has been made of how bad Durant was in that Lakers series. I think OK city could have pulled off an upset if he would have shown up. The rest of his team played great. In those 6 games, he didn't come close to showing up.

Kevin Durant
6 playoff games
38 mpg
35% shooting
28% from 3-point line
3.67 turnovers per game
Those numbers are absolutely terrible. Neither player is good defensively.

Derrick Rose
12 Playoff Games
43.8 MPG
47.3% shooting!!! 47.3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5.1 rebounds, 6.8 assists

So, Derrick has clearly been the better playoff performer. We'll see. I can completely understand why you would rather have Durant. But I didn't understand why someone would act like it's crazy to make the comparison. It's crazy to compare Kobe to MJ...it's not crazy to make an argument for Derrick Rose over Durant.

Fred, Durant was guarded by Ron Artest. Rose was guarded by Mo Williams. The guy being guarded by a former dpoy is gonna shoot worse and turnover the ball more. Furthermore, fg% is more biased to a guy like Rose vs a guy like Durant who shoots threes. Their ts% are virtually identical in last years playoffs.

Didn't Rose put 35 up against Rondo in Game 1 last year? Unlike Artest, Rondo is 1st team All NBA in defense. Rondo is one of the best defensive point guards in the game. Ron Artest isn't the defender he used to be.

Really, I didn't see Rondo's DPOY statue on his mantle. Unlike Rondo, Artest has one of those and has been on four all defense teams. And I was talking about this year anyway. You know, that Mo Williams guy with no trophies at all.

But how many other 30 point playoff games has Rose had against Rondo? I really wouldn't brag about that series, Rose had a 13.3 per.

I can't believe you dismiss a dpoy, 4 time all defense defender and best coach of all time.

you're right! he has a defensive player of the year award. so let's go bring back sidney moncrief and he can guard rose. i mean he has the hardware right?

dude that was six years ago. six years ago tracy mcgrady was averaging 28 ppg. six years ago shaq led the lakers to the finals. six years ago ben wallace was the shit.

things change in six years bro.

 

[clonetrooper264]

bullsman24 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Fred wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Fred wrote:

Maybe I should clarify my stance on this whole issue.

#1. I'm not saying that Rose is better than Durant. Obviously, Durant has been better in the regular season.
#2. But a HUGE part of how we judge great players is how they play in the playoffs. In fact, it's more important than the regular season. It's why there are people who think Kobe is better than LeBron, because LeBron was clearly better in the regular season. So when factoring in playoffs alone, Rose has clearly been better. There's no comparison.

I don't think enough has been made of how bad Durant was in that Lakers series. I think OK city could have pulled off an upset if he would have shown up. The rest of his team played great. In those 6 games, he didn't come close to showing up.

Kevin Durant
6 playoff games
38 mpg
35% shooting
28% from 3-point line
3.67 turnovers per game
Those numbers are absolutely terrible. Neither player is good defensively.

Derrick Rose
12 Playoff Games
43.8 MPG
47.3% shooting!!! 47.3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5.1 rebounds, 6.8 assists

So, Derrick has clearly been the better playoff performer. We'll see. I can completely understand why you would rather have Durant. But I didn't understand why someone would act like it's crazy to make the comparison. It's crazy to compare Kobe to MJ...it's not crazy to make an argument for Derrick Rose over Durant.

Fred, Durant was guarded by Ron Artest. Rose was guarded by Mo Williams. The guy being guarded by a former dpoy is gonna shoot worse and turnover the ball more. Furthermore, fg% is more biased to a guy like Rose vs a guy like Durant who shoots threes. Their ts% are virtually identical in last years playoffs.

Didn't Rose put 35 up against Rondo in Game 1 last year? Unlike Artest, Rondo is 1st team All NBA in defense. Rondo is one of the best defensive point guards in the game. Ron Artest isn't the defender he used to be.

Really, I didn't see Rondo's DPOY statue on his mantle. Unlike Rondo, Artest has one of those and has been on four all defense teams. And I was talking about this year anyway. You know, that Mo Williams guy with no trophies at all.

But how many other 30 point playoff games has Rose had against Rondo? I really wouldn't brag about that series, Rose had a 13.3 per.

I can't believe you dismiss a dpoy, 4 time all defense defender and best coach of all time.

you're right! he has a defensive player of the year award. so let's go bring back sidney moncrief and he can guard rose. i mean he has the hardware right?

dude that was six years ago. six years ago tracy mcgrady was averaging 28 ppg. six years ago shaq led the lakers to the finals. six years ago ben wallace was the shit.

things change in six years bro.

Yes things change in 6 years, and in 6 years Artest isn't quite DPOY material anymore, however this doesn't mean that he's not still one of the best perimeter defenders in the game right now.

 

[houheffna]

LOL you show me a player who did better at age 38-40. The only guys that you can even compare are bigs like Kareem and Malone. No other perimeter player is in the discussion. Please MJ was the whole team and that team wouldn't have won half as many games without him. They were his injury away from making the playoffs after just winning the lotto the year before. Did you watch any of those games? This has to be the dumbest thing you have ever said and an extreme case of basketball retardation. Nonsense. The guy improved their record 18 games and he was as big of a problem as solution.

1994 and 2000, Pip came close to winning, Jordan coming back was his fault and only expediated his firing. It was as much a discredit to his career as anything. Jordan was not heaven sent to that team. Ask Richard Hamilton....

 

[Diddy1122]

houheffna wrote:

1994 and 2000, Pip came close to winning, Jordan coming back was his fault and only expediated his firing. It was as much a discredit to his career as anything. Jordan was not heaven sent to that team. Ask Richard Hamilton....

Heaven sent or not, MJ was that team. The Wiz were awful, some of which was his fault as the VP of Bball Ops, but they never would've even sniffed the playoffs without MJ coming back. Though I do agree, most of players did not appreciate it. But there's no point in comparing 1-legged MJ after a 4yr absence to Pipp in 2000 when he wasn't even the best player on that team. What he did in '94 in MJ's absence was amazing but what happened when the pressure came up in the playoffs? He sulked on the bench cuz he didn't get the last play. I mean say what you want about his abilities, which Pip was an amazing player, but even the Zen Master didn't have faith in him to hit the winning shot. That's pretty telling.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

LOL you show me a player who did better at age 38-40. The only guys that you can even compare are bigs like Kareem and Malone. No other perimeter player is in the discussion. Please MJ was the whole team and that team wouldn't have won half as many games without him. They were his injury away from making the playoffs after just winning the lotto the year before. Did you watch any of those games? This has to be the dumbest thing you have ever said and an extreme case of basketball retardation. Nonsense. The guy improved their record 18 games and he was as big of a problem as solution.

1994 and 2000, Pip came close to winning, Jordan coming back was his fault and only expediated his firing. It was as much a discredit to his career as anything. Jordan was not heaven sent to that team. Ask Richard Hamilton....

Both of Pippen's teams are much better than anything Jordan had. But that isn't the point. Your telling me that a guy who doubles a teams wins isn't a huge assest to him because Rip Hamilton didn't like him? Please, the guy single handily doubled their wins. You need to seperate MJ the player and MJ the executive. He was still a top 20 player in the league.

 

[houheffna]

I was speaking of the irony of the situation at first. And as stated, his time as player only rushed him out the door. I am speaking of his whole tenure with the franchise. But out of curiosity, what conclusion did y'all derive from my statement? I never said Pip was better...

 

[TheStig]

I thought you were talking about MJ as a player in Washington. At least that I was talking about. As an executive, he is the complete opposite of what he was as a player.

 

[Shakes]

But the only reason MJ the player played for Washington was because MJ the GM is an idiot.

 

[TheStig]

I thought he played to increase the team value. Didn't he own a minority share of the team? Thats why he was pissed after he finished playing because he pumped up their value and sold out every night.

 

[houheffna]

He played because he wanted to come back, had nothing to do with team value.