Del Negro merits some credit

[??? ??????]

With the Bulls on the verge of clinching a playoff spot after a 113-99 victory Thursday night over the Philadelphia 76ers at the United Center, the turbulent offseason that appeared a certainty only a couple of months ago now seems unlikely.

Unless general manager John Paxson can swing a blockbuster deal for a star-quality player this summer to team with Derrick Rose, most of the Bulls' key contributors will return next season.

Really, the only major issue is whether Ben Gordon (an unrestricted free agent) or Kirk Hinrich will be the odd man out of the backcourt logjam. Because of luxury-tax issues, the Bulls can't afford both next season.

And while we're on the subject of the future, it's time to say firmly that coach Vinny Del Negro will -- and should -- return for a second season.

I know, I know. Del Negro still has his detractors on the Internet who believe he should've been fired months ago and that the Bulls are winning in spite of him. And, admittedly, some of his decisions, including several lineups at the end of games and his propensity to spend timeouts like a shopaholic with a pocket full of $100 bills, have been poor.

But on balance, it's hard to argue with the results. The Bulls (39-40) are within a game of the .500 mark and already have six more victories than last season. Their magic number is one, and they're only 1½ games behind Philadelphia (which hosts the Cleveland Cavaliers tonight) for the sixth spot in the Eastern Conference.

At the start of the season, no sane person thought the Bulls would be battling for the sixth seed in the last week of the season.

Still, the expectations that nearly everyone had for the Bulls and Del Negro at the start of the season were simply unrealistic.

I'm sorry, but you don't hire someone with no coaching experience on any level and expect him to be Phil Jackson -- or even Scott Skiles -- from Day 1.

When management made the decision to hire Del Negro after dropping the ball on Mike D'Antoni and Doug Collins, it committed itself to someone who was learning on the job.

Del Negro's critics will point out that the only change in his coaching during the Bulls' strong play down the stretch is that he has a better roster to bail him out after the Bulls dealt for veterans John Salmons and Brad Miller just before the trade deadline in February.

Of course, it's true that Del Negro has benefitted from the deal. But no matter who's roaming the sidelines, the NBA is a player's league and the team with the better talent wins 95 percent of the time.

As the late Red Holzman -- the legendary coach of the New York Knicks -- used to say, ''It's not about the X's and O's, it's about the Jimmies and Joes.''

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/jackson/1520652,CST-SPT-jax10.article

 

[dougthonus]

Not a big fan of how the author takes several facts and makes them sound more impressive than they are, then he makes up a bunch of reasons why coaching doesn't matter anyway.

At the start of the season, no sane person thought the Bulls would be battling for the sixth seed in the last week of the season.

Well no one thought 41-41 might win the 6th seed either.

But on balance, it's hard to argue with the results. The Bulls (39-40) are within a game of the .500 mark and already have six more victories than last season. Their magic number is one, and they're only 1½ games behind Philadelphia (which hosts the Cleveland Cavaliers tonight) for the sixth spot in the Eastern Conference.

Prior to getting John Salmons and Brad Miller for Drew Gooden and Andres Nocioni which was a massive talent upgrade this team was on pace to win the same number of games or less than last year, and they would have swapped out Chris Duhon for Derrick Rose.

Personally, I'm not that impressed with the record. It's good enough that I won't say he's done a terrible job, but it's not good enough to say "you can't argue with it". I thought this team had more talent than 41 wins when the season started, and we added a ton of talent at the deadline. Injuries have curtailed that somewhat though, so I think all in all he's done a fair job.

Still, the expectations that nearly everyone had for the Bulls and Del Negro at the start of the season were simply unrealistic.

I'm sorry, but you don't hire someone with no coaching experience on any level and expect him to be Phil Jackson -- or even Scott Skiles -- from Day 1.

When management made the decision to hire Del Negro after dropping the ball on Mike D'Antoni and Doug Collins, it committed itself to someone who was learning on the job.

Completely correct. You don't hire a guy with no coaching experience and expect him to be good. No one expected VDN to be good. I don't think he has been all that good either.

Del Negro's critics will point out that the only change in his coaching during the Bulls' strong play down the stretch is that he has a better roster to bail him out after the Bulls dealt for veterans John Salmons and Brad Miller just before the trade deadline in February.

Of course, it's true that Del Negro has benefitted from the deal. But no matter who's roaming the sidelines, the NBA is a player's league and the team with the better talent wins 95 percent of the time.

So the point here is that coaching makes no difference so why not VDN? Well why not hire me. You'll find out what a huge difference coaching makes when the team wins 10 games the next season because I have no basketball scheme and no idea how to run a practice.

Clearly talent is important, but by saying that it's not about Xs and Os to defend VDN absolves him of blame and credit.

 

[??? ??????]

dougthonus wrote:

Not a big fan of how the author takes several facts and makes them sound more impressive than they are, then he makes up a bunch of reasons why coaching doesn't matter anyway.

At the start of the season, no sane person thought the Bulls would be battling for the sixth seed in the last week of the season.

Well no one thought 41-41 might win the 6th seed either.

But on balance, it's hard to argue with the results. The Bulls (39-40) are within a game of the .500 mark and already have six more victories than last season. Their magic number is one, and they're only 1½ games behind Philadelphia (which hosts the Cleveland Cavaliers tonight) for the sixth spot in the Eastern Conference.

Prior to getting John Salmons and Brad Miller for Drew Gooden and Andres Nocioni which was a massive talent upgrade this team was on pace to win the same number of games or less than last year, and they would have swapped out Chris Duhon for Derrick Rose.

Personally, I'm not that impressed with the record. It's good enough that I won't say he's done a terrible job, but it's not good enough to say "you can't argue with it". I thought this team had more talent than 41 wins when the season started, and we added a ton of talent at the deadline. Injuries have curtailed that somewhat though, so I think all in all he's done a fair job.

Still, the expectations that nearly everyone had for the Bulls and Del Negro at the start of the season were simply unrealistic.

I'm sorry, but you don't hire someone with no coaching experience on any level and expect him to be Phil Jackson -- or even Scott Skiles -- from Day 1.

When management made the decision to hire Del Negro after dropping the ball on Mike D'Antoni and Doug Collins, it committed itself to someone who was learning on the job.

Completely correct. You don't hire a guy with no coaching experience and expect him to be good. No one expected VDN to be good. I don't think he has been all that good either.

Del Negro's critics will point out that the only change in his coaching during the Bulls' strong play down the stretch is that he has a better roster to bail him out after the Bulls dealt for veterans John Salmons and Brad Miller just before the trade deadline in February.

Of course, it's true that Del Negro has benefitted from the deal. But no matter who's roaming the sidelines, the NBA is a player's league and the team with the better talent wins 95 percent of the time.

So the point here is that coaching makes no difference so why not VDN? Well why not hire me. You'll find out what a huge difference coaching makes when the team wins 10 games the next season because I have no basketball scheme and no idea how to run a practice.

Clearly talent is important, but by saying that it's not about Xs and Os to defend VDN absolves him of blame and credit.

I think Vinny is saying that because he is using the Phoenix style, of letting the players offensive talent shine, which isn't that dependent on X's an O's.

But Vinny needs to realize soon that the X's and O's on the defensive end are important. Otherwise, we will plateau like the Mavericks under Don Nelson, where they could score a lot, but no one thought they could win the championship. Then we'll need to sign another coach, maybe a guy like Avery Johnson to get us over the top.

 

[collisrost]

Doug, the reason your podcast is so good even though it's a solocast is that you're officially a fence-sitter. I say this in the best possible sense -- it's like you give both sides of every argument. Your stance on VDN, as illustrated to this post and others you've written recently, is looking at both sides. It must be frustrating to many people who hold entrenched positions to deal with you, simply because you're so reasonable and give them the other side of their argument, which may well drive them nuts.

 

[DJhitek]

Vinny does deserve some credit for his rotations and being consistent with them. It's no secret that Tyrus and Noah are playing much better. This is attributed to minutes as some will argue, and I agree. But the key is they are getting consistent minutes.

As for the rest, Vinny is bad with his game management. He just is. He calls timeouts late in games where the situation dictated otherwise.

 

[AirP]

Wonder how many games we would have won had we not had key injuries to Gooden and Deng which MADE Vinnie have to shorten his bench and with that... the turn around of the bulls.

Vinnie has been a negative for this team this year because he didn't know how to handle personel, maybe if he looks back at this season he'll see you can't just divy out minutes evenly to nearly 10 players. Playing a big rotation works if your backups are the same type of player... so there's not much of a difference on the flow, but Chicago's backups are vastly different then their starters that each player they bring in completely changes the way the team needs to play on offense and defense, how can a team be consistant constantly chaning during a game?

Rose/Hinrich - 2 completely different styles on offense and defense.
Gooden/Tyrus - 2 completely different styles on offense and defense.
Noah/Gray - 2 completely different styles on offense and defense.
Tyrus/Nocioni - 2 completely different styles on offense and defense.
Deng/Tyrus(at PF) - 2 completely different styles on offense and defense.
Gordon/Hinrich(SG) - 2 completely different styles on offense and defense.

The injuries that made Vinnie shorten his bench are what changed this team around, not Vinnie.

Had Vinnie came in and went with a 8 man rotation, this team would have come together much quicker and been a much better team for the season. This team has talent, they just don't have consistancy... and with the multitude of combinations that constantly saw the floor, how could they? Each time someone was subbed EVERYONE'S role on the court changed.

 

[Ralphb07]

AirP wrote:

Wonder how many games we would have won had we not had key injuries to Gooden and Deng which MADE Vinnie have to shorten his bench and with that... the turn around of the bulls.

Vinnie has been a negative for this team this year because he didn't know how to handle personel, maybe if he looks back at this season he'll see you can't just divy out minutes evenly to nearly 10 players. Playing a big rotation works if your backups are the same type of player... so there's not much of a difference on the flow, but Chicago's backups are vastly different then their starters that each player they bring in completely changes the way the team needs to play on offense and defense, how can a team be consistant constantly chaning during a game?

Rose/Hinrich - 2 completely different styles on offense and defense.
Gooden/Tyrus - 2 completely different styles on offense and defense.
Noah/Gray - 2 completely different styles on offense and defense.
Tyrus/Nocioni - 2 completely different styles on offense and defense.
Deng/Tyrus(at PF) - 2 completely different styles on offense and defense.
Gordon/Hinrich(SG) - 2 completely different styles on offense and defense.

The injuries that made Vinnie shorten his bench are what changed this team around, not Vinnie.

Had Vinnie came in and went with a 8 man rotation, this team would have come together much quicker and been a much better team for the season. This team has talent, they just don't have consistancy... and with the multitude of combinations that constantly saw the floor, how could they? Each time someone was subbed EVERYONE'S role on the court changed.

This is exactly what the reporter is talking about... Did you really think Vinny would come in and handle everything like a 10 year coach? He had to learn on the job and he made plenty of mistakes there's no denying that but what did you expect.

But IMO things turned around and as the season went on the important things Paxson wanted done happen.

Vinny was a guy that is a player coach (the anti Skiles) which he is and the players seem happy even more happy than when we were winning under the Skiles. The confidence is there with every player and the value is up.

Tyrus and Noah have really good value. Kirk value is back as well. Looking back @ the the begining of the season is just pointless. If he was a veteran coach than it would be a different story but he wasn't.


Derrick Rose giving the keys to the car- Check
Tyrus and Noah being developed- Check
Getting the players confidence back- Check
Making the playoffs- Check

Those things were done and the team's future looks bright now so let's focus on what needs to be corrected going into next season and be positive

Edit: Kenny Smith said it last night that the Bulls players have value again and that this team right now might not be better than the team 3 years ago but the future of this team is better than that team.

 

[dougthonus]

Edit: Kenny Smith said it last night that the Bulls players have value again and that this team right now might not be better than the team 3 years ago but the future of this team is better than that team.

Too bad Luol Deng isn't one of those players who has value again. Of course if he was, then I wouldn't want to get rid of him, so his value wouldn't matter. What a catch-22 world we live in.

 

[Ralphb07]

Speaking of giving credit I think it's time for a sorry Paxson topic. The guy has been killed for not taking this guy over that and it seems like things have turned the corner. Tyrus is playing very well in his 1 season giving playing time. Noah is looking better than Hawes that people were upset Paxson passed on.

I really think Paxson did a excellent job this year and since he was GM he had one bad offseason in making moves. I'm completely confident in John Paxson running this team

 

[dougthonus]

Ralphb07 wrote:

Speaking of giving credit I think it's time for a sorry Paxson topic. The guy has been killed for not taking this guy over that and it seems like things have turned the corner. Tyrus is playing very well in his 1 season giving playing time. Noah is looking better than Hawes that people were upset Paxson passed on.

I really think Paxson did a excellent job this year and since he was GM he had one bad offseason in making moves. I'm completely confident in John Paxson running this team

I agree with you on Paxson. Of course, I've always liked Paxson. Most of the worst decisions that have been made over the past few years have been Reinsdorf decisions. Not to say that Paxson wasn't on board with them, but the Deng extension and Wallace signing were Reinsdorf moves.

 

[AirP]

Ralphb07 wrote:

Derrick Rose giving the keys to the car- Check
Tyrus and Noah being developed- Check
Getting the players confidence back- Check
Making the playoffs- Check

Derrick Rose given keys to the car, not really, I saw MANY MANY MANY times this year where Rose was standing over on the wing while Gordon or Hinrich dominated teh ball. Recently Rose has been handing the ball more, last night was how it should have been all season.

Tyrus and Noah being developed... thank god Gooden and Deng got hurt or this wouldn't have happened like it did. Gooden took Noah's and Tyrus' time, Deng was being played at the 4 to get his minutes.... without these key injuries we may still not know what the 2 young guys could give us as solid starters.

Getting players confidence back... yes this came back because they got minutes BECAUSE OF INJURIES. Paxson's trade of Thabo helped ease Vinnie's decisions on minutes.

Playoffs... this team is basically a .500 team, thank god we're in the East. This team has talent to win more games then this... a tighter rotation would have done wonders for team chemistry and with that better play because the players would have understood their roles better on the court.

This team wins despite Vinnie, who knows if he's learned anything, we'll see next season. From what I've seen, the events that have occured, I don't have much faith in seeing Vinnie doing the right thing.

He has done a few of the right things... for example.. he understands the jumper is something he's going to have to live with Tyrus to help him become a much better player on offense.

 

[Ralphb07]

dougthonus wrote:

Edit: Kenny Smith said it last night that the Bulls players have value again and that this team right now might not be better than the team 3 years ago but the future of this team is better than that team.

Too bad Luol Deng isn't one of those players who has value again. Of course if he was, then I wouldn't want to get rid of him, so his value wouldn't matter. What a catch-22 world we live in.

We just gotta hope that he takes the summer off and stays healthy. The injuries happen when he started playing for GB so if he doesn't then I think he should be fine.

 

[Ralphb07]

AirP wrote:

Ralphb07 wrote:

Derrick Rose giving the keys to the car- Check
Tyrus and Noah being developed- Check
Getting the players confidence back- Check
Making the playoffs- Check

Derrick Rose given keys to the car, not really, I saw MANY MANY MANY times this year where Rose was standing over on the wing while Gordon or Hinrich dominated teh ball. Recently Rose has been handing the ball more, last night was how it should have been all season.

Tyrus and Noah being developed... thank god Gooden and Deng got hurt or this wouldn't have happened like it did. Gooden took Noah's and Tyrus' time, Deng was being played at the 4 to get his minutes.... without these key injuries we may still not know what the 2 young guys could give us as solid starters.

Getting players confidence back... yes this came back because they got minutes BECAUSE OF INJURIES. Paxson's trade of Thabo helped ease Vinnie's decisions on minutes.

Playoffs... this team is basically a .500 team, thank god we're in the East. This team has talent to win more games then this... a tighter rotation would have done wonders for team chemistry and with that better play because the players would have understood their roles better on the court.

This team wins despite Vinnie, who knows if he's learned anything, we'll see next season. From what I've seen, the events that have occured, I don't have much faith in seeing Vinnie doing the right thing.

He has done a few of the right things... for example.. he understands the jumper is something he's going to have to live with Tyrus to help him become a much better player on offense.

This is not worth responding to. Rose has played 37 minutes a game that's giving him the keys. You saying otherwise is pure comical

Vinny could play Timmy, Gray, Hunter and Linton if he wanted too but he isn't so again another comical statement

Do you know what development is? Vinny letting Tyrus shoot is developing him......

Teams don't win despite of there coach and that is why coaches get fired so that theory is just so wrong. For proof look @ the sixers with Cheeks this year and the Bulls team last year.

 

[dougthonus]

Derrick Rose given keys to the car, not really, I saw MANY MANY MANY times this year where Rose was standing over on the wing while Gordon or Hinrich dominated teh ball. Recently Rose has been handing the ball more, last night was how it should have been all season.

I think this is a really overstated complaint. Rose has played a ton and has the 2nd highest usage rate (behind Ben Gordon) on the team, and usage percentage doesn't take into account assists otherwise Rose would be even higher. He's handled the ball more than any other player on the team IMO.

 

[collisrost]

Let's look at it from this perspecitve, what complaints about Vinny are complaints lots of fans have about their team's coaches? From my point of view, most coaches are accused of:

1. Not handling the rotation correctly -- Everyone has their own preference with regards to the minute distribution.

2. Defense -- Most fans are not satisfied with their team's defense unless it's like top 5 in the league.

3. Not playing the young guys -- Most coaches try to win now, most fans want them to play the kids with an eye to the future.

4. Making specific bad decisions -- each guy has his specific area where fans think they make bad decisions, in Vinny's case it's timeouts and late game play-calling.

5. Screwing up the way he handles a team discipline issue -- Most teams have some kind of fallout between management and a player over a fine or something and the coach is blamed for not predicting how the player would react and handle it just right.

There are probably a few more, but the point is made. I'm not saying Vinny's good at all these things, he's got a mixed record here, but honestly most coaches do at least some of these things that we fans hate.

 

[AirP]

Ralphb07 wrote:

This is not worth responding to. Rose has played 37 minutes a game that's giving him the keys. You saying otherwise is pure comical

Vinny could play Timmy, Gray, Hunter and Linton if he wanted too but he isn't so again another comical statement

Do you know what development is? Vinny letting Tyrus shoot is developing him......

Teams don't win despite of there coach and that is why coaches get fired so that theory is just so wrong. For proof look @ the sixers with Cheeks this year and the Bulls team last year.

37 minutes and "giving the keys" aren't the same thing. He hasn't been the driver, he's been a part time driver and a part time passanger, get your phrases right.

Timmy's been hurt and when he hasn't he's eaten up some minutes from others, Gray is too slow to be paired up with Miller and he isn't going to get time over Miller... Hunter is an emergency backup and Linton is an emergancy backup too.

You really don't think teams can win despite bad coaches? Really?

Don't toss last year with the Bulls at me... The Bulls for as HORRIBLE collapse of a season they had and a head coach change MIDSEASON still won 33 games, we're going to win 6-9 more games this year with our young bigs being better, having the #1 OVERALL DRAFT PICK and a trade that netted us better talent for the next couple of years...

 

[AirP]

dougthonus wrote:

Derrick Rose given keys to the car, not really, I saw MANY MANY MANY times this year where Rose was standing over on the wing while Gordon or Hinrich dominated teh ball. Recently Rose has been handing the ball more, last night was how it should have been all season.

I think this is a really overstated complaint. Rose has played a ton and has the 2nd highest usage rate (behind Ben Gordon) on the team, and usage percentage doesn't take into account assists otherwise Rose would be even higher. He's handled the ball more than any other player on the team IMO.

I guess we can differ, I watched how the Hornets handled bringing in CP3, he was the focus very early, the same can't be said of Rose, Rose was a high option but he wasn't the focal point. I very rarely remember going to a game and watching CP3 standing over on the wing while another guard ran the offense. The Hornets gave the keys to CP3 and he took over very early knowing that was HIS team. Rose was was just one of the top options in the offense... which wouldn't have been a bad thing if he were a SG... but we're talking about the PG, the guy who runs the offense.

Rose was handled very differently then CP3. The Hornets treated him as the franchise basically day 1, Chicago just acted like Rose was one of the guys. If you want a franchise player, you have to treat them like a franchise player or they'll just be one of the guys.

 

[dougthonus]

I think this is a matter of degrees. I think Rose and Paul haven't been the exact same, but I think our commitment to Rose has been very large and deep.

Yes, there are times where Rose doesn't have the ball and isn't leading the action, but I think that's a good thing, especially early on in the year where his court vision was very questionable at times. I don't think you could have committed much more to Rose without significantly hurting the win total.

As a side note, Rose's rookie usage rate is higher than Paul's rookie usage rate, so it's hard to argue that Paul was controlling things THAT much more than Rose.

 

[dougthonus]

collisrost wrote:

Let's look at it from this perspecitve, what complaints about Vinny are complaints lots of fans have about their team's coaches? From my point of view, most coaches are accused of:

1. Not handling the rotation correctly -- Everyone has their own preference with regards to the minute distribution.

2. Defense -- Most fans are not satisfied with their team's defense unless it's like top 5 in the league.

3. Not playing the young guys -- Most coaches try to win now, most fans want them to play the kids with an eye to the future.

4. Making specific bad decisions -- each guy has his specific area where fans think they make bad decisions, in Vinny's case it's timeouts and late game play-calling.

5. Screwing up the way he handles a team discipline issue -- Most teams have some kind of fallout between management and a player over a fine or something and the coach is blamed for not predicting how the player would react and handle it just right.

There are probably a few more, but the point is made. I'm not saying Vinny's good at all these things, he's got a mixed record here, but honestly most coaches do at least some of these things that we fans hate.

I agree, the main thing is fans typically deride coaches for problems in things that are hard to judge when the team is playing poorly and just say "this guy stinks look at xyz".

People said Mike Brown was terrible for a long time, do you still think he's terrible? Same with Doc Rivers until he won the title in Boston.

Coaching is pretty difficult to judge fairly IMO.

 

[Ralphb07]

AirP wrote:

Ralphb07 wrote:

This is not worth responding to. Rose has played 37 minutes a game that's giving him the keys. You saying otherwise is pure comical

Vinny could play Timmy, Gray, Hunter and Linton if he wanted too but he isn't so again another comical statement

Do you know what development is? Vinny letting Tyrus shoot is developing him......

Teams don't win despite of there coach and that is why coaches get fired so that theory is just so wrong. For proof look @ the sixers with Cheeks this year and the Bulls team last year.

37 minutes and "giving the keys" aren't the same thing. He hasn't been the driver, he's been a part time driver and a part time passanger, get your phrases right.

Timmy's been hurt and when he hasn't he's eaten up some minutes from others, Gray is too slow to be paired up with Miller and he isn't going to get time over Miller... Hunter is an emergency backup and Linton is an emergancy backup too.

You really don't think teams can win despite bad coaches? Really?

Don't toss last year with the Bulls at me... The Bulls for as HORRIBLE collapse of a season they had and a head coach change MIDSEASON still won 33 games, we're going to win 6-9 more games this year with our young bigs being better, having the #1 OVERALL DRAFT PICK and a trade that netted us better talent for the next couple of years...

Playing 37 minutes as a rookie PG and having the ball as much as he has is being giving the keys, learn basketball MORE

Timmy when hurt has eaten up some minutes key word being "Some". Timmy comes in when the Bigs aren't giving us offense being used to give us that spark which you stated as some minutes. Which we use 7 guys so we need that 8th for "some" minutes

Regardless of what you think of Gray if Vinny was as bad as you say he would be used. Also Hunter and LJ would be used especially if Skiles was still here.

Your last paragraph proves just how clueless you are seriously. Last year we had a veteran coach and had veteran players and didn't win. Having a rookie coach step in and to win with a rookie regardless how good they are and young players is hard not easy to do. Look at James in Cleveland in year one.

So I wouldn't be using the winning with a rookie and young players in your argument