Del Negro merits some credit

[Ralphb07]

dougthonus wrote:

collisrost wrote:

Let's look at it from this perspecitve, what complaints about Vinny are complaints lots of fans have about their team's coaches? From my point of view, most coaches are accused of:

1. Not handling the rotation correctly -- Everyone has their own preference with regards to the minute distribution.

2. Defense -- Most fans are not satisfied with their team's defense unless it's like top 5 in the league.

3. Not playing the young guys -- Most coaches try to win now, most fans want them to play the kids with an eye to the future.

4. Making specific bad decisions -- each guy has his specific area where fans think they make bad decisions, in Vinny's case it's timeouts and late game play-calling.

5. Screwing up the way he handles a team discipline issue -- Most teams have some kind of fallout between management and a player over a fine or something and the coach is blamed for not predicting how the player would react and handle it just right.

There are probably a few more, but the point is made. I'm not saying Vinny's good at all these things, he's got a mixed record here, but honestly most coaches do at least some of these things that we fans hate.

I agree, the main thing is fans typically deride coaches for problems in things that are hard to judge when the team is playing poorly and just say "this guy stinks look at xyz".

People said Mike Brown was terrible for a long time, do you still think he's terrible? Same with Doc Rivers until he won the title in Boston.

Coaching is pretty difficult to judge fairly IMO.

Thank you Doug for bringing up Mike Brown. It's true too people thought he was a horrible coach which isn't the case and every year they have gotten better

 

[dougthonus]

Ralphb07 wrote:

Your last paragraph proves just how clueless you are seriously.

Let's drop the name calling please.

First, Airp is a really bright guy, so in this case, this is purely inaccurate. I think he's always had insightful things to say even if you disagree with his points on an individual basis.

Second, even when it comes to truly clueless people I think we can all agree that the name calling doesn't ever improve discussion, but it just raises hostility and makes it less likely to ever get your point across to them.

 

[Ralphb07]

dougthonus wrote:

Ralphb07 wrote:

Your last paragraph proves just how clueless you are seriously.

Let's drop the name calling please.

First, Airp is a really bright guy, so in this case, this is purely inaccurate. I think he's always had insightful things to say even if you disagree with his points on an individual basis.

Second, even when it comes to truly clueless people I think we can all agree that the name calling doesn't ever improve discussion, but it just raises hostility and makes it less likely to ever get your point across to them.

37 minutes and "giving the keys" aren't the same thing. He hasn't been the driver, he's been a part time driver and a part time passanger, get your phrases right.

Since he was trying to educate me on getting my phrases right I thought it was okay for me to make a same type of comment

 

[dougthonus]

Then he would respond by saying when you said:

"This is not worth responding to"

that it enabled him to make the type of comment that he made.

I understand things get heated, it's not like I'm going to drive to your house and inflict punishment, but I'm just asking everyone not to go down that road.

I think all of the things like "This is not worth responding to" "get your phrases right" or "you're clueless" stuff are all counter productive to real discussion and really have no need to be thrown in there.

I'm not trying to play chicken/egg with who started it. I have two kids, believe me, I don't care who starts it as the subtle starting point is often so difficult to ascertain and usually involves minor escalations by both sides to the point where there's at least 40% guilt on both sides. I just don't want it to get worse and want to stop it.

 

[AirP]

Ralphb07 wrote:

Your last paragraph proves just how clueless you are seriously. Last year we had a veteran coach and had veteran players and didn't win. Having a rookie coach step in and to win with a rookie regardless how good they are and young players is hard not easy to do. Look at James in Cleveland in year one.

So I wouldn't be using the winning with a rookie and young players in your argument

Wait, wait, wait... are you trying to tell me last year's roster was better then this year's roster? If you are then WOW... the improvements of Noah and Tyrus, improved play of Hinrich and the #1 draft pick isn't better then an underachieving Wallace, underachiving Deng and a nice consistant Joe Smith?

This year's roster is MUCH better then last year's roster by far, if you don't think so then there's really not much I can say to change your mind... but it just blows my mind that you think last year's roster is nearly as good as this year's... especailly with development tossed into it.

 

[AirP]

Ralphb07 wrote:

Since he was trying to educate me on getting my phrases right I thought it was okay for me to make a same type of comment

Your phrase was wrong, if you want to see the keys given to a young player look at the Hornets with CP3 or the 2nd half of D.Wade's rookie year. You can say Rose is a prominate player, but he didn't give him the keys to the team... You can't honestly say he's been the focal point of the offense this year with Ben Gordon doing what he's done.

Now with that said, last night's game against the 76ers Rose did look as he had been given the keys, he was the focal point and Ben Gordon basically just played the finisher. There was very good chemistry going on between the 2 offensively.

 

[??? ??????]

AirP wrote:

Ralphb07 wrote:

Since he was trying to educate me on getting my phrases right I thought it was okay for me to make a same type of comment

Your phrase was wrong, if you want to see the keys given to a young player look at the Hornets with CP3 or the 2nd half of D.Wade's rookie year. You can say Rose is a prominate player, but he didn't give him the keys to the team... You can't honestly say he's been the focal point of the offense this year with Ben Gordon doing what he's done.

Now with that said, last night's game against the 76ers Rose did look as he had been given the keys, he was the focal point and Ben Gordon basically just played the finisher. There was very good chemistry going on between the 2 offensively.

I don't think this team really has too much of a focal point. The scoring load seems to be largely shared by Rose/Gordon/Salmons.

Here is the FGA breakdown:

Ben Gordon - 15.9
Derrick Rose - 14.9
John Salmons - 13.6

Rose is only taking 1 less shot per a game than Gordon, so there really isn't a whole lot of difference in how they're sharing the scoring load.

Our three man perimeter trio reminds me of the early 2000's Bucks with Sam Cassell, Ray Allen, and Glenn Robinson. In 2001, the Bucks were the 2nd seed in the East, played into June, losing in Game 7 of the Conference Finals to the 76ers.

Here's a little reminder of that team.

[video type=youtube]tQrl7CC55p0[/video]

That team even had Lindsey Hunter and Tim Thomas on it!

That video is great because the parallels are so great, "He dribbles it off his foot....", "He slips and falls"

 

[Ralphb07]

AirP wrote:

Ralphb07 wrote:

Since he was trying to educate me on getting my phrases right I thought it was okay for me to make a same type of comment

Your phrase was wrong, if you want to see the keys given to a young player look at the Hornets with CP3 or the 2nd half of the season of D.Wade's rookie year. You can say Rose is a prominate player, but he didn't give him the keys to the team... You can't honestly say he's been the focal point of the offense this year with Ben Gordon doing what he's done.

No it wasn't and Doug backs it us with this

I think this is a really overstated complaint. Rose has played a ton and has the 2nd highest usage rate (behind Ben Gordon) on the team, and usage percentage doesn't take into account assists otherwise Rose would be even higher. He's handled the ball more than any other player on the team IMO.

I think this is a matter of degrees. I think Rose and Paul haven't been the exact same, but I think our commitment to Rose has been very large and deep.

Yes, there are times where Rose doesn't have the ball and isn't leading the action, but I think that's a good thing, especially early on in the year where his court vision was very questionable at times. I don't think you could have committed much more to Rose without significantly hurting the win total.

As a side note, Rose's rookie usage rate is higher than Paul's rookie usage rate, so it's hard to argue that Paul was controlling things THAT much more than Rose.

So how is that not giving Rose the keys. He's started and played the most and has the stats to back it up thanks to Doug. His usage rating is better than Paul's rookie season.... So you have no stats or facts to back your theory up.

Everything I bring up are facts. You might try to dispute them but there facts.

It's a fact that Thomas and Noah have played more this year than there previous year. You can bring up whatever reason you feel but it still is a fact it was under Vinny.

You can say Rose hasn't been giving the keys but all the stats shows he has.

You can bring up whatever reason as why the offense is what it is but the fact is it's under VDN and the style he brings which Skiles didn't use us that way.

With that said Vinny isn't perfect AirP I'm not saying he is. The defense needs help. He needs to use timeouts better and add things to the offense. But no one could expect him to get all that in his 1st year which is my point. He messed up a lot in the begining but has stuck with a short rotation and had identified the best players on the team and plays them a lot.

People also undervalue how hard it is to win with young guys. Which is why a lot of the elite coaches don't play young guys because they wanna win. IMO winning 41 games with Tyrus and Noah being big factors isn't a easy thing based on the up and down of young players. You really need to be patient with them which Skiles lacked.

 

[AirP]

Ralphb07 wrote:

No it wasn't and Doug backs it us with this

I think this is a really overstated complaint. Rose has played a ton and has the 2nd highest usage rate (behind Ben Gordon) on the team, and usage percentage doesn't take into account assists otherwise Rose would be even higher. He's handled the ball more than any other player on the team IMO.

I think this is a matter of degrees. I think Rose and Paul haven't been the exact same, but I think our commitment to Rose has been very large and deep.

Yes, there are times where Rose doesn't have the ball and isn't leading the action, but I think that's a good thing, especially early on in the year where his court vision was very questionable at times. I don't think you could have committed much more to Rose without significantly hurting the win total.

As a side note, Rose's rookie usage rate is higher than Paul's rookie usage rate, so it's hard to argue that Paul was controlling things THAT much more than Rose.

So how is that not giving Rose the keys. He's started and played the most and has the stats to back it up thanks to Doug. His usage rating is better than Paul's rookie season.... So you have no stats or facts to back your theory up.

Everything I bring up are facts. You might try to dispute them but there facts.

It's a fact that Thomas and Noah have played more this year than there previous year. You can bring up whatever reason you feel but it still is a fact it was under Vinny.

You can say Rose hasn't been giving the keys but all the stats shows he has.

You can bring up whatever reason as why the offense is what it is but the fact is it's under VDN and the style he brings which Skiles didn't use us that way.

With that said Vinny isn't perfect AirP I'm not saying he is. The defense needs help. He needs to use timeouts better and add things to the offense. But no one could expect him to get all that in his 1st year which is my point. He messed up a lot in the begining but has stuck with a short rotation and had identified the best players on the team and plays them a lot.

People also undervalue how hard it is to win with young guys. Which is why a lot of the elite coaches don't play young guys because they wanna win. IMO winning 41 games with Tyrus and Noah being big factors isn't a easy thing based on the up and down of young players. You really need to be patient with them which Skiles lacked.

For starters, the usage stat is an estimate and is based more on scoring(which Rose was a slightly better rookie scorer then CP3)...
Usage percentage is an estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor.

Usage = 100 * ((FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TOV) * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm FGA + 0.44 * Tm FTA + Tm TOV))

Watching nearly all their games their rookie years... both CP3 and Rose they were handled differently. CP3 had the ball in his hands by far more then Rose did(overall), in nearly 1 less minute per game CP3 trails Rose by .5 ppg but hat 1.6 more apg. Rose is a main option but saying "Vinnie gave him the keys" implies that he is the focus of the team, especially on offense in this instance and this just isn't the case.

I watched nearly every game of Rose's and CP3s rookie years, there's a vast difference(overall) of how much the offense was focused on CP3 and Rose. I believe Rose could have put up much better stats had he been given the keys/ was no doubt the #1 option. Dear lord, I can only imagine the lofty stats Rose would have put up in D'Antoni's system, he may had been an All-Star this year.

Yesterday was a perfect example of how it should have been all year, Rose creates and Gordon scores by hitting the open jumpers. Not always does Rose get an assist or score, but he was the focus of our offense yesterday, making the defense have to switch and allowing us to find a good shot in another pass or 2.

You don't get stats for handling the ball and breaking down the defense unless you score or get an assist... but there's alot more you can do that doesn't get on the stat sheet, creating oppertunties for the team because of the breakdown on defense create by someone like Rose.

BTW... I enjoy having pretty deep Bulls talk like this, made me aware of the usage stat, decent stat if you understand it's context.

 

[Ralphb07]

AirP wrote:

Ralphb07 wrote:

No it wasn't and Doug backs it us with this

I think this is a really overstated complaint. Rose has played a ton and has the 2nd highest usage rate (behind Ben Gordon) on the team, and usage percentage doesn't take into account assists otherwise Rose would be even higher. He's handled the ball more than any other player on the team IMO.

I think this is a matter of degrees. I think Rose and Paul haven't been the exact same, but I think our commitment to Rose has been very large and deep.

Yes, there are times where Rose doesn't have the ball and isn't leading the action, but I think that's a good thing, especially early on in the year where his court vision was very questionable at times. I don't think you could have committed much more to Rose without significantly hurting the win total.

As a side note, Rose's rookie usage rate is higher than Paul's rookie usage rate, so it's hard to argue that Paul was controlling things THAT much more than Rose.

So how is that not giving Rose the keys. He's started and played the most and has the stats to back it up thanks to Doug. His usage rating is better than Paul's rookie season.... So you have no stats or facts to back your theory up.

Everything I bring up are facts. You might try to dispute them but there facts.

It's a fact that Thomas and Noah have played more this year than there previous year. You can bring up whatever reason you feel but it still is a fact it was under Vinny.

You can say Rose hasn't been giving the keys but all the stats shows he has.

You can bring up whatever reason as why the offense is what it is but the fact is it's under VDN and the style he brings which Skiles didn't use us that way.

With that said Vinny isn't perfect AirP I'm not saying he is. The defense needs help. He needs to use timeouts better and add things to the offense. But no one could expect him to get all that in his 1st year which is my point. He messed up a lot in the begining but has stuck with a short rotation and had identified the best players on the team and plays them a lot.

People also undervalue how hard it is to win with young guys. Which is why a lot of the elite coaches don't play young guys because they wanna win. IMO winning 41 games with Tyrus and Noah being big factors isn't a easy thing based on the up and down of young players. You really need to be patient with them which Skiles lacked.

For starters, the usage stat is an estimate and is based more on scoring(which Rose was a slightly better rookie scorer then CP3)...
Usage percentage is an estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor.

Usage = 100 * ((FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TOV) * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm FGA + 0.44 * Tm FTA + Tm TOV))

Watching nearly all their games their rookie years... both CP3 and Rose they were handled differently. CP3 had the ball in his hands by far more then Rose did(overall), in nearly 1 less minute per game CP3 trails Rose by .5 ppg but hat 1.6 more apg. Rose is a main option but saying "Vinnie gave him the keys" implies that he is the focus of the team, especially on offense in this instance and this just isn't the case.

I watched nearly every game of Rose's and CP3s rookie years, there's a vast difference(overall) of how much the offense was focused on CP3 and Rose. I believe Rose could have put up much better stats had he been given the keys/ was no doubt the #1 option. Dear lord, I can only imagine the lofty stats Rose would have put up in D'Antoni's system, he may had been an All-Star this year.

Yesterday was a perfect example of how it should have been all year, Rose creates and Gordon scores by hitting the open jumpers. Not always does Rose get an assist or score, but he was the focus of our offense yesterday, making the defense have to switch and allowing us to find a good shot in another pass or 2.

You don't get stats for handling the ball and breaking down the defense unless you score or get an assist... but there's alot more you can do that doesn't get on the stat sheet, creating oppertunties for the team because of the breakdown on defense create by someone like Rose.

BTW... I enjoy having pretty deep Bulls talk like this, made me aware of the usage stat, decent stat if you understand it's context.

I'll get more into this later gotta leave work and take the dad out for his birthday dinner but Rose likes to shy away a lot. Look at him last year with memphis as he took over more as the season goes on. The same thing is happening here.

You can't blame Vinny for Rose shying away in games and not demanding the ball which I think you're doing and that's a totally different arguement.

Rose has the freedom to take 30 shots a night and IMO that's been there from day one but you can't blame Vinny if Rose doesn't take them. Rose has the ball as much as he wants it. I think it's more him shying away than Vinny not giving him the keys and that's just Rose style

 

[AirP]

Ralphb07 wrote:

I'll get more into this later gotta leave work and take the dad out for his birthday dinner but Rose likes to shy away a lot. Look at him last year with memphis as he took over more as the season goes on. The same thing is happening here.

You can't blame Vinny for Rose shying away in games and not demanding the ball which I think you're doing and that's a totally different arguement.

Rose has the freedom to take 30 shots a night and IMO that's been there from day one but you can't blame Vinny if Rose doesn't take them. Rose has the ball as much as he wants it. I think it's more him shying away than Vinny not giving him the keys and that's just Rose style

You are exactly correct, he doesn't like to step on the toes of the vets(college or pros), it's not the respectful thing to do. That's why I wish Vinnie would have took it upon himself to let everyone know who's team it was. I posted that before the season began, Rose is special but is being held back overall by himself... that's where a coach needed to step in and push him to be who he can be.

I completely expect to see a dominate player emerge from Rose in the next season or 2, I just wish it was pushed more for him to become the focal point for this team this year.

 

[Ralphb07]

AirP wrote:

Ralphb07 wrote:

I'll get more into this later gotta leave work and take the dad out for his birthday dinner but Rose likes to shy away a lot. Look at him last year with memphis as he took over more as the season goes on. The same thing is happening here.

You can't blame Vinny for Rose shying away in games and not demanding the ball which I think you're doing and that's a totally different arguement.

Rose has the freedom to take 30 shots a night and IMO that's been there from day one but you can't blame Vinny if Rose doesn't take them. Rose has the ball as much as he wants it. I think it's more him shying away than Vinny not giving him the keys and that's just Rose style

You are exactly correct, he doesn't like to step on the toes of the vets(college or pros), it's not the respectful thing to do. That's why I wish Vinnie would have took it upon himself to let everyone know who's team it was. I posted that before the season began, Rose is special but is being held back overall by himself... that's where a coach needed to step in and push him to be who he can be.

I completely expect to see a dominate player emerge from Rose in the next season or 2, I just wish it was pushed more for him to become the focal point for this team this year.

Parents ain't here yet, lol


I think you're asking way too much here. Vinny can't say Gordon don't shoot that shot or Tyrus don't take that jumper or Kirk don't run that play, you need a team flow in games and got to use all players to their talents which Gordon needs the ball as he is a play maker. He made it Rose's team from the get go. He has put the ball in Rose's hand a lot @ the end of games which hasn't worked but he's still done it knowing it will pay off. You also can't have Rose with the ball 100% of the time.

Also Chris Paul had no Ben Gordon on his team when his was a rookie which would of changed a lot. Ben can catch and shoot really well but he also creates his own shot just as well and you can't take that away from Ben and need him to go one on one

I feel Vinny did his part and everyone knows who teams it is but we're just waiting on Rose to take it which needs to happen. Vinny can only do so much.

 

[dougthonus]

You can't honestly say he's been the focal point of the offense this year with Ben Gordon doing what he's done.

I would honestly say that Rose has been the focal point of the offense. I mean I guess it depends on what you consider "focal" point, but I think Rose has had the ball in his hands quite a bit more than everyone else.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhi5v0l8-cg[/media]​

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9nHKGtMuFs[/media]​

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4sBu7oR2BQ[/media]​

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on8H3yKk79w[/media]​

Although it's supposed to be 41 degrees.... this game is always fun!



The alumni game has been postponed until 2:00PM CST today, it will air on VERSUS

 

[Tater]

Sean Waivery waived again. Who wants the Rangers sloppy seconds?





http://espn.go.com/n...ean-avery-again



PHILADELPHIA -- Subtract one fan favorite from the NHL's Winter Classic festivities.

The New York Rangers have waived controversial winger Sean Avery for the second time this season.





More From ESPNNewYork.com

Rangers. Islanders. Devils. If you want hockey information, ESPNNewYork.com has you covered. Blog

The 31-year-old Avery, who was waived in October during the preseason, has been a scratch for nine straight games. He has three goals in 15 games this season, but averaged only 7 minutes, 1 second in ice time before his most recent exile.

Avery made his season debut Nov. 5 against Montreal after spending a month with the team's AHL affiliate in Hartford, Conn., and being summoned back to the Rangers on re-entry waivers.

Avery cleared waivers on Saturday, as he did the first time.

Although the Rangers have not made other immediate roster moves, the decision to place Avery on waivers is a good indication that they have other players close to returning. Wojtek Wolski is recovering from his sports hernia surgery in November, and Marc Staal is working on his conditioning in anticipation of his season debut.

Staal, a 24-year-old defenseman, has yet to play this season because of post-concussions symptoms stemming from a hit from his older brother, Eric, in February.

Avery's demotion comes as no surprise, given his lack of playing time the past three weeks. Avery and Erik Christensen, the Rangers' skilled-yet-inconsistent center, have been the odd men out as the Rangers made their way to the top of the Eastern Conference standings.

"We're getting healthier," Rangers coach John Tortorella said. "This team is getting healthier, so it comes down to a numbers game."

The move means Avery will not play in the Winter Classic on Jan. 2 at Philadelphia.

"Sean's a good friend," Brandon Prust said. "It's sad to see him go, but those are decisions that are out of our hands. Obviously we hope he does well and he's going to keep working hard and try to get back up here."

Once assigned to the AHL's Connecticut Whale, the notorious agitator was sidelined for weeks while rehabbing a shoulder injury suffered in training camp. Although Avery told ESPNNewYork.com during his assignment that he doubted he'd ever play again for the Rangers, it took only two games until a knee injury to Rangers forward Mike Rupp triggered his recall.

Avery carries a salary-cap hit of $1.9 million, which would be pro-rated for the remainder of the season should a team claim him off waivers. If he is placed and then claimed on re-entry waivers, the Rangers would be on the hook for roughly $1 million of his salary.

Katie Strang covers the NHL for ESPNNewYork.com. The Associated Press contributed to this report.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Old news.



Best record in the east!!



He wasn't waived because of play.... he was actually playing very well and only had 2 PIMs staying disciplined. Idiot Tortorella (douchebag) has had a vendetta against him from when he was the coach of the Lightning.



Avery asked to be released because of his unfair treatment. Like the article said Wolski and the Rangers best player are coming back soon... simply no room for him right now because the of the Rangers' depth.



Wonder what Frolov thinks about his decision to bail back to the KHL!??!?!!

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Game has been moved to 2:00PM CST if someone could update the thread title.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Apparently puck drop won't be until 2:30 CST now... still listed at 2:00 CST, though.



ALSO... MARC STAAL IS BACK!

 

[klemmer]

Bryz is my hero!

 

[BigPete]

Patti sounds like crap.



Why were those NY and Phila idiots booing Oh Canada?