Demp not going anywhere

[Jntg4]

I agree with daddies3angels. The Cubs should never have to say "we have no intention of competing over the next 3 years". They'd be the only team with their type of resources to throw in the towel for a few years.

Yankees and Red Sox have both rebuilt before.

 

[daddies3angels]

Yankees and Red Sox have both rebuilt before.

in the last 20 years when revenue has sky rocketted in major markets for baseball?

 

[Rice Cube]

in the last 20 years when revenue has sky rocketted in major markets for baseball?

I think at some point earlier last decade, Theo Epstein told the BoSox fans that they would have to possibly rebuild and may not be contending for a bit. They did have a couple decent drafts pan out though. It's not unheard of.

The difference is that the Yankees and Red Sox are very very smart and also care solely about winning (for the Red Sox it's more recent obviously ). They also spend quite a bit on drafting, scouting, player development and other stuff besides just their major league payroll. The Yankees core is getting older but was basically Bernie Williams, Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Andy Pettitte and Mariano Rivera for a very long time. The Red Sox have a bunch of home grown guys in their everyday lineup. Neither team has had to rebuild all that significantly because they invested such that they could have that core to build off of.

With the Cubs, they buy up other teams' free agents when they get expensive while their former teams continue to find other ways to win. There doesn't seem to be very much in the way of prospect development. Whenever they get a crop of good ones, it seems like they decide to just trade them for someone else's homegrown, about-to-get-really-expensive star. That reduces the window of contention to those years when the free agents signed are still in their primes, and then when they break down, they're left with subpar players and expensive contracts that nobody wants.

So...obviously that's not working. Why not rebuild?

By the way, someone might want to look up that Theo Epstein situation I was talking about, I'm not sure I'm totally right, but I do recall him saying something like that.

 

[Captain Iago]

I think at some point earlier last decade, Theo Epstein told the BoSox fans that they would have to possibly rebuild and may not be contending for a bit. They did have a couple decent drafts pan out though. It's not unheard of.

The difference is that the Yankees and Red Sox are very very smart and also care solely about winning (for the Red Sox it's more recent obviously ). They also spend quite a bit on drafting, scouting, player development and other stuff besides just their major league payroll. The Yankees core is getting older but was basically Bernie Williams, Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Andy Pettitte and Mariano Rivera for a very long time. The Red Sox have a bunch of home grown guys in their everyday lineup. Neither team has had to rebuild all that significantly because they invested such that they could have that core to build off of.

With the Cubs, they buy up other teams' free agents when they get expensive while their former teams continue to find other ways to win. There doesn't seem to be very much in the way of prospect development. Whenever they get a crop of good ones, it seems like they decide to just trade them for someone else's homegrown, about-to-get-really-expensive star. That reduces the window of contention to those years when the free agents signed are still in their primes, and then when they break down, they're left with subpar players and expensive contracts that nobody wants.

So...obviously that's not working. Why not rebuild?

By the way, someone might want to look up that Theo Epstein situation I was talking about, I'm not sure I'm totally right, but I do recall him saying something like that.

TE used the word "bridge" instead of rebuild, I believe.

 

[Rice Cube]

TE used the word "bridge" instead of rebuild, I believe.

Got a link? Appreciate it. He might have sugarcoated it a bit but the way I understood it, he realized that it would be very difficult to contend and had to tell the fans something.

 

[nwfisch]

By the way, someone might want to look up that Theo Epstein situation I was talking about, I'm not sure I'm totally right, but I do recall him saying something like that.

I think something along these lines.

From the Sporting News circa 2003.

One on one with

The worst advice I got was from someone who shall remain nameless. He said that the best way to win over the Boston fans right away would be to trade for Players X and Y at any expense. Players X and Y are great players, but we would have had to trade away all of our good, young players to get them. I don't think quick fixes are the answer--not even in Boston, where there is pressure to win every year.

 

[Rice Cube]

Theo Epstein is the anti-Hendry.

 

[nwfisch]

A thing I've thought of, maybe Hendry was under orders from Tribune to spend big in 06 and 07 to make the Cubs appear more valuable.

 

[Rice Cube]

A thing I've thought of, maybe Hendry was under orders from Tribune to spend big in 06 and 07 to make the Cubs appear more valuable.

That is definitely the case from many sources that I've read. That's why Soriano got that huge contract and why many of those contracts were so backloaded.

I don't think there's anything in the rules that says that the Cubs must always contend. 2003, 2007, 2008 and even 2009 for a bit really spoiled Cubs fans and they don't understand that 1) the Ricketts overpaid for the Cubs and probably don't have as much to spend as the fans hope they do, particularly with the needed renovations of Wrigley Field; 2) the existing core is old, subpar, and likely to get worse as another year goes by. Sometimes you just have to learn to let go; and 3) unless they can sign Pujols and have him play 3B with Fielder at 1B, this team is very very unlikely to contend in 2012.

On the other hand, they have a chance to 1) use the money to sign their crop of draft picks this year, of which a bunch of them are actually solid picks and could do wonders for our farm and our future; 2) cut payroll by making salary-dump trades of their expensive players (except Soriano who would probably take a miracle to move unless they just release him); and 3) save all that money for a better free agent crop in 2013, albeit one that doesn't include Pujols or Fielder.

It's not up to you or me what they do really; it's more a function of how much money the Ricketts have and how many brain cells they still have to do something baseball smart. I really hope they wise up and pull off a good rebuild. Yeah, the Cubs may not contend until 2015 or something, but if they do it right, the 2015 team will be badass and contend for several years. If they can build a solid foundation, this can totally happen.

Or they could just half-ass a contender every year from now on, like they did this year, and we could just not see a legitimate contending Cubs team for the foreseeable future. That sounds like it would suck.

 

[nwfisch]

The frustrating part is that there doesn't seem to be a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[daddies3angels]

That is definitely the case from many sources that I've read. That's why Soriano got that huge contract and why many of those contracts were so backloaded.

I don't think there's anything in the rules that says that the Cubs must always contend. 2003, 2007, 2008 and even 2009 for a bit really spoiled Cubs fans and they don't understand that 1) the Ricketts overpaid for the Cubs and probably don't have as much to spend as the fans hope they do, particularly with the needed renovations of Wrigley Field; 2) the existing core is old, subpar, and likely to get worse as another year goes by. Sometimes you just have to learn to let go; and 3) unless they can sign Pujols and have him play 3B with Fielder at 1B, this team is very very unlikely to contend in 2012.

On the other hand, they have a chance to 1) use the money to sign their crop of draft picks this year, of which a bunch of them are actually solid picks and could do wonders for our farm and our future; 2) cut payroll by making salary-dump trades of their expensive players (except Soriano who would probably take a miracle to move unless they just release him); and 3) save all that money for a better free agent crop in 2013, albeit one that doesn't include Pujols or Fielder.

It's not up to you or me what they do really; it's more a function of how much money the Ricketts have and how many brain cells they still have to do something baseball smart. I really hope they wise up and pull off a good rebuild. Yeah, the Cubs may not contend until 2015 or something, but if they do it right, the 2015 team will be badass and contend for several years. If they can build a solid foundation, this can totally happen.

Or they could just half-ass a contender every year from now on, like they did this year, and we could just not see a legitimate contending Cubs team for the foreseeable future. That sounds like it would suck.

Just because if team builds within doesnt mean by 2015 they could contend and be good for years. Teams rebuild ALL THE TIME and never get any good. Cubs do have a foundation of players from there own system, Castro, Soto, Cashner, Marmol, Barney (still a utitlity player in my mind) Zambrano, and then what ever comes up from the system either late this year or early next. PIT, KCR, BAL,TOR,CLE,OAK,WSN,MIL,COL,ARI,and SDP have been trying for YEARS to do this. Yes some have good year here and there but Teams like NYY, BOS, and PHI have spent the money to WIN NOW. Yes of course they had some of there own talent on MLB level but they spent around them to win just like Cubs can spend around there MLB talent to win. Im sorry but for a team that hasnt won in OVER 1OO YEARS doesnt have the luxary of trying to rebuild that could FAIL and have to do it ALL OVER AGAIN and wait another 5 years. Cubs are a big market and need to act like it. I realize they have some contracts but they are coming off the books over the next 2 years so you try doing it ALL OVER AGAIN....

 

[Rice Cube]

Well, you are always welcome to look at the 2012 and 2013 free agent lists to see who might be able to help the Cubs win. Of course, if you build through free agency, your team is going to be a lot more expensive than if you had a solid in-house foundation before filling in the holes. That's why that 1997 Florida team was blown up after they won it all. Expense is why you can't keep some teams together. You have to always have a "reload" plan. The Cubs don't seem to have a plan. The "plan" as it stands is "throw some shit at a wall and see what happens" and I'm sorry to say, it's a very very bad plan. If they spend money in the offseason to throw another half-ass contender together just to placate fans who want to WIN NOW, then I'm sorry to say that they're probably not going to win for a while anyway. Ironic, no?

 

[Jntg4]

Just because if team builds within doesnt mean by 2015 they could contend and be good for years. Teams rebuild ALL THE TIME and never get any good. Cubs do have a foundation of players from there own system, Castro, Soto, Cashner, Marmol, Barney (still a utitlity player in my mind) Zambrano, and then what ever comes up from the system either late this year or early next. PIT, KCR, BAL,TOR,CLE,OAK,WSN,MIL,COL,ARI,and SDP have been trying for YEARS to do this. Yes some have good year here and there but Teams like NYY, BOS, and PHI have spent the money to WIN NOW. Yes of course they had some of there own talent on MLB level but they spent around them to win just like Cubs can spend around there MLB talent to win. Im sorry but for a team that hasnt won in OVER 1OO YEARS doesnt have the luxary of trying to rebuild that could FAIL and have to do it ALL OVER AGAIN and wait another 5 years. Cubs are a big market and need to act like it. I realize they have some contracts but they are coming off the books over the next 2 years so you try doing it ALL OVER AGAIN....

Even if we sign free agents we AREN'T going to compete until Soriano's contract is up anyway. So we might as well get the prospects going and THEN sign free agents to fill in the holes.

 

[daddies3angels]

Well, you are always welcome to look at the 2012 and 2013 free agent lists to see who might be able to help the Cubs win. Of course, if you build through free agency, your team is going to be a lot more expensive than if you had a solid in-house foundation before filling in the holes. That's why that 1997 Florida team was blown up after they won it all. Expense is why you can't keep some teams together. You have to always have a "reload" plan. The Cubs don't seem to have a plan. The "plan" as it stands is "throw some shit at a wall and see what happens" and I'm sorry to say, it's a very very bad plan. If they spend money in the offseason to throw another half-ass contender together just to placate fans who want to WIN NOW, then I'm sorry to say that they're probably not going to win for a while anyway. Ironic, no?

You CAN NOT compare FLA with Cubs. Cubs are BIG MARKET while FLA a small market. I dont think you understand what BIG MARKET means

 

[daddies3angels]

Even if we sign free agents we AREN'T going to compete until Soriano's contract is up anyway. So we might as well get the prospects going and THEN sign free agents to fill in the holes.

Its 18 mil. That is NOT ALOT when a BIG MARKET team can spend 130 mil + Cant say cause of 1 contract they cant go out and add more. Thats just ridiculous. Soriano not worth 18 mil but still a valuable piece a team. He can be a very good 6 hole hitter on a good team.

 

[Jntg4]

You CAN NOT compare FLA with Cubs. Cubs are BIG MARKET while FLA a small market. I dont think you understand what BIG MARKET means

Its 18 mil. That is NOT ALOT when a BIG MARKET team can spend 130 mil + Cant say cause of 1 contract they cant go out and add more. Thats just ridiculous. Soriano not worth 18 mil but still a valuable piece a team. He can be a very good 6 hole hitter on a good team.

18 million is a lot for any team, it's like 15% of our total payroll.

It's not that we can't add more, it's that we won't be good until it is gone. You seem to think we have a championship caliber core that is 1 piece away from glory... we don't.

 

[daddies3angels]

18 million is a lot for any team, it's like 15% of our total payroll.

You dont build a team cause one guy is making 18 mil.

 

[daddies3angels]

18 million is a lot for any team, it's like 15% of our total payroll.

It's not that we can't add more, it's that we won't be good until it is gone. You seem to think we have a championship caliber core that is 1 piece away from glory... we don't.

I dont think were just one player way. I do think they could be 4-5 good moves away.

1: Getting a STUD 1B to hit in 3 hole (Pujols, Fielder)
2: Getting a very nice RF (rumors Either could be on block)
3: Getting a 2B that could hit in 1 or 2 spot (prolly have to trade for 1)
4: Get a real manager ( who doesnt allow Pujols to hit 2 game winning HR on back to back days)

Nobody thought they were going to contend in 2007 but Cubs went out and got some nice pieces. Soriano was the big piece with 3 nice moves. SO why cant they go get Fielder or Pujols as there big piece and then make 3 nice moves? Again your way of thinking of total rebuild just doesnt sit well for Cub fans who WANT TO WIN, Cubs are the laughing stock of ALL PRO SPORTS just not MLB.

 

[Jntg4]

You dont build a team cause one guy is making 18 mil.

No, it's just that you build from the farm first and then when YOU HAVE A CORE THAT ISN'T A BUNCH OF OLD, OVERPAID, WASHED UP VETS WHO ARE PAST THEIR PRIME you sign key players again. You build from within and then FIND OUT WHERE YOU NEED TO FILL IN.

""

 

[Jntg4]

I dont think were just one player way. I do think they could be 4-5 good moves away.

1: Getting a STUD 1B to hit in 3 hole (Pujols, Fielder)
2: Getting a very nice RF (rumors Either could be on block)
3: Getting a 2B that could hit in 1 or 2 spot (prolly have to trade for 1)
4: Get a real manager ( who doesnt allow Pujols to hit 2 game winning HR on back to back days)

1. Ok...
2. Ok...
3. Oh, so Darwin Barney is the 3rd biggest reason we aren't winning championships now? I think there are some bigger things holding us back...
4. Now you are just finding another scapegoat in Mike Quade, typical for a Cubs fan.

So we are 3 players away from a world championship? Guess we don't need to find a 3rd baseman or improve starting pitching, eh?