The Hawk
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I do not think that either of them runs the point well.
I do not think that either of them runs the point well.
The Hawk
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The thing is that good leaders make everyone that plays with them a bit better. Rose doesn't make anyone better. He is not a leader and the Bulls need a leader. Butler has leadership abilities but I do not think he knows how to lead. There are other examples of these kind of guys in the NBA. Good/Great players but not players who others will want to play with. Guys like Love, Melo, Harden, Cousins, et al. Then you have some teams that have an abundance of leaders. The Spurs. The Warriors. I think that the Celtics are headed into that direction.
Noah was the leader of this team but unfortunately his career was cut short by injuries. GIbson, Noah, and Butler at one point had the street cred and leadership on the Bulls and they won a lot of games.
Noah was the leader of this team but unfortunately his career was cut short by injuries. GIbson, Noah, and Butler at one point had the street cred and leadership on the Bulls and they won a lot of games.
Enasic
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No. Neither one is great at running the team but I think Jimmy, despite his flaws, is still more effective.
cjswan232482
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Rose and Butler average 4.7 assist agame but Butler plays 6 more minutes a game. Perspective.
Enasic
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Sure. Rose handles the ball more though.
The Hawk
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Another thing bad about Rose is his failure to improve his shooting. The great players evolve over time, especially when their bodies start breaking down. I believe that Rose should have hired or the Bulls should have hired a shooting coach or two for him. Hell, he certainly had time during his rests to study shooting and work at it. I really don't understand why many players do not become better outside shooters.
The Hawk
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I still maintain that Butler should be a small forward and the big fat FAILURE of the Bulls is their refusal to bring in another viable guard, in fact two guards. They had chances when they had an abundance of bigs who they could have traded for a couple of guards.
Enasic
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I've said this before but I'll go over it again. In today's game, the distinction between SG and SF is arbitrary. Jimmy will always guard the best wing whether he plays "SG" or "SF." The positions are basically interchangeable. Jimmy can score very efficiently and like I've said, he will always guard the opposing team's best wing player, whether that is a SG or SF. The Bulls need another viable wing player, whether you want to label them a SG or SF. Either way, MDJ is not that guy and I think Doug is best suited for a bench role.
Axl Rose
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the sad part is after the MVP year Rose was looking really improved that next year on his overall game before injuries started...he was looking to pass more and his 3 point shot was hitting.....the injuries pretty much regressed his growth
Benchmob757
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I think that's the most frustrating thing for me. How does your shot not get better? Something so basic and relatively easy to practice even when you're coming off injury.
Axl Rose
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Cowley says Noah and Jimmy would have got in a fist fight with each other had Jo not left for rehab in NY...its coming from Cowley so take it for what its worth...although i would expect if it isn't true for Noah to dismiss the claims quickly
i happen to believe theres a tension in locker room, don't know if its deep enough for it to come to blows like Cowley is saying (i think hes embellishing like he always does) but its a divide and Jimmy is at the center
i happen to believe theres a tension in locker room, don't know if its deep enough for it to come to blows like Cowley is saying (i think hes embellishing like he always does) but its a divide and Jimmy is at the center
Enasic
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the front office has quite the off-season ahead of them.
RoseMVP1
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Sam Smith just came out and said Jimmy has a colossal ego and basically thinks he's above everyone. I'm about 98% sure he's done in Chicago.
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It took Jason Kidd like 10 years to become a good 3pt shooter, just saying. Also the Bulls either don't have a shooting coach or whoever they do have sucks. I'm pretty sure a good shooting coach could fix Rose's mechanics so he could be more consistent from 3. Heck, you can go on youtube and find videos that outline exactly why he's not a good 3pt shooter. They're relatively easy fixes.
The Hawk
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You are right about Kidd. He did evolve late into a good outside shooter by going to a sort of set shot from the outside. Rose is too much a jump shooter off of the dribble and generally that doesn't work too well. Another guy who could really use a shooting coach is Mirotic who has got a funny kind of release for his shot and I think his trajectory is too flat. ALways thought the same way with Hinrich and Pippin's shot.
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Rose's issue isn't that he shoots off the dribble a lot, it's that he jumps too much. It works for him in midrange because he doesn't need to get as much power behind his shot from that distance, but once he gets to the 3pt line the flatness of his shot becomes a hindrance. He either needs to jump less (look at good shooters like Steph, Lillard, KD, etc when they shoot, they don't jump as high) or find a way to somehow channel Ray Allen's precision. It's possible to jump a lot and be a good shooter (Redick, Korver, Beal for example), but his release isn't currently suited for that.
Mirotic just needs to stop taking 30 foot 3s. He's a good shooter, though streaky, and nothing really needs to be adjusted in his form since it works for him. It does seem kind of stiff though.
Enasic
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I'm not feeling bad for Jimmy. For one, he's not the same defensive player and there were quite a few games this season where he just didn't show up and seemed as disinterested as Rose does at times. I agree that Noah and Rose aren't the same players anymore and don't quite have the same status...but from all accounts, Jimmy flat out was not a leader this year despite trying to proclaim himself as one. Like Pax said, leaders don't talk about leadership, they lead through their actions. There's a difference between the normal athlete's ego and the way Jimmy conducted himself this year. I think he has the potential to be a good leader, but he needs to find some of that humble pie from his small town, Tomball roots he loves to proclaim. The way he's conducted himself might be glossed over if he were Michael Jordan and the team was winning, but Jimmy Butler isn't even a 1st tier superstar and he's acting like he's Kobe.
Enasic
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I get where you're coming from but I don't think it's that easy. There's a lot of shit that went on behind the scenes that we're not privy to. What's pretty obvious is, Jimmy flat out rubbed most of the organization the wrong way. That says a lot. The second Noah went down, he lost his ability to lead because he wasn't on the floor. Rose used to be a leader simply because guys looked up to him, respected him, and he was the MVP. He didn't have to talk much at all. The way he played and set the tone was all the leadership he needed. Jimmy isn't on the same page with his coach. You can't lead that way. Impossible. Then all the other incidents of isolation and just generally not being a good teammate. I seen it all year. It was like Jimmy wasn't even on the same team, just had the same jersey on.
Is there a double standard? Of course. The FO is talking about accountability yet they're not remotely being held accountable. They're allowed to continuously **** up and pass the buck to someone else. It's hard to fully assess the situation without being in the inner circle of the team and organization, but it really seems Jimmy needs to get over himself. He didn't like the Thibs firing. Fine. But he got paid a shit load of money to play ball and be all about the team. That unfortunately includes Hoiberg, who I feel is not suited to be an NBA coach. But you have to put your best foot forward, and if you're going to lead, you have to be step for step with your HC. Not to mention your teammates. It just didn't seem like Jimmy was all about the team this year. The guy flat out admitted earlier in the year that he's moody and he has a lot of stuff going on in his life, and sometimes it carries over to practice and the games. Who wants to hear that from anyone? Yet alone someone who's self proclaiming themselves as leader of the team and wants to take the reigns?
GalePayton
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Agreed. I think that Jimmy is outta here.
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A side note on assist numbers, Hoiberg's offense is supposed to spread the assist numbers around so it's not even surprising really that Rose's assist numbers aren't that high. It makes even more sense then, that when Jimmy insists on iso plays and being the sole PnR ball handler that he gets more assists than Rose, as he is running all the offense through himself like a myplayer in 2k. I noted earlier that Rose generates more secondary assists, I think that would be a result of him playing more to what Hoiberg wants. Something something pace and space.
That said, they both still aren't super great.
That said, they both still aren't super great.