Don't Compare Bulls and Clippers...

[jsain360]

TheStig wrote:

jsain360 wrote:

Even with everybody up in arms about Bulls management now, they still have made more playoff apearnaces than the Clippers this decade

And yet we both have gotten exactly as far as one another in the playoffs. Nevermind the fact that the west was much deeper than the east those years. And if you just moved them to the east they would have made it an additional time and if you adjusted for an easier schedule in the east they probably make it a third time.

Comparing the Bulls to the Clippers, is like comparing the Bears to the Lions

 

[houheffna]

Your right, MJ was on 30,38 and 40 win teams, I can't believed we resigned that ball hog sg that disrupted the offensive flow, people said could never lead a team to a ring. Glad no one listened to your line of thinking in 1987. BG isn't MJ but I could see you singing in that chorus back then. Same thing with Kobe being on 34 and 42 win teams, you need more than one guy in the nba

Your argument is absolutely groundless...absolutely...groundless. I watched Jordan in 1987...nobody...nobody looked at MJ they way they look at BG. If anybody would have had the "this team sucks" mantra it would have been you. I don't look at anybody on this team and see MJ. If I did, the outlook obviously would be different. This team didn't have a all league, all star, franchise player anywhere on its roster. You are comparing a player who had already ascended to one of the top players if not the top player in the league...to players from the Bulls teams the last few years...no comparison. You are wrong...if BJ Armstrong was the starting SG on teams that were going no where, he is expendable. But to say what you just said is an assault on any basketball knowledge I have. Which makes your argument groundless.

 

[jsain360]

TheStig wrote:

houheffna wrote:

That is because of the talent on the team...that is funny, we let one go and people get upset, yet they were no better than the Clippers...maybe that is why they are letting certain people go...

Your right, MJ was on 30,38 and 40 win teams, I can't believed we resigned that ball hog sg that disrupted the offensive flow, people said could never lead a team to a ring. Glad no one listened to your line of thinking in 1987. BG isn't MJ but I could see you singing in that chorus back then. Same thing with Kobe being on 34 and 42 win teams, you need more than one guy in the nba.

Mike & Kobe you start franchises w/, Ben Gordon, is a piece, he won't lead a team to a ring, this comparision is totally awful and not even close, comparables to Ben Gordon, Jeff Malone

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Your right, MJ was on 30,38 and 40 win teams, I can't believed we resigned that ball hog sg that disrupted the offensive flow, people said could never lead a team to a ring. Glad no one listened to your line of thinking in 1987. BG isn't MJ but I could see you singing in that chorus back then. Same thing with Kobe being on 34 and 42 win teams, you need more than one guy in the nba

Your argument is absolutely groundless...absolutely...groundless. I watched Jordan in 1987...nobody...nobody looked at MJ they way they look at BG. If anybody would have had the "this team sucks" mantra it would have been you. I don't look at anybody on this team and see MJ. If I did, the outlook obviously would be different. This team didn't have a all league, all star, franchise player anywhere on its roster. You are comparing a player who had already ascended to one of the top players if not the top player in the league...to players from the Bulls teams the last few years...no comparison. You are wrong...if BJ Armstrong was the starting SG on teams that were going no where, he is expendable. But to say what you just said is an assault on any basketball knowledge I have. Which makes your argument groundless.

No that was the exact manta being said about MJ. Exactly what you have been saying about BG. Now BG isn't Kobe or MJ but since leaving he is top 10 in scoring in the league. The fact that he can't be a big piece on a championship team is insane. And if you read my origninal post, I said he wasn't on the same level but this argument isn't groundless.

 

[houheffna]

No that was the exact manta being said about MJ. Exactly what you have been saying about BG. Now BG isn't Kobe or MJ but since leaving he is top 10 in scoring in the league. The fact that he can't be a big piece on a championship team is insane. And if you read my origninal post, I said he wasn't on the same level but this argument isn't groundless.

By who? What Special person said get rid of MJ? I don't remember that at all, I don't know how old you were at that time...but Jordan was pretty far down the road to icon status. And if that is true and people asked for MJ to be gone, you should canonize Reinsdorf, not vilify him for signing MJ to a long term deal.

I think this whole scenario is a fabrication.

Mike & Kobe you start franchises w/, Ben Gordon, is a piece, he won't lead a team to a ring, this comparision is totally awful and not even close, comparables to Ben Gordon, Jeff Malone

Wow...that is actually a good comparison...their mentalities are very similar...Gordon is more efficient...Malone was the #1 option and more of a volume shooter...but that is a heck of a comparison...Karl Malone didn't like Jeff too much though...I think he would have liked Gordon more...Gordon did more with less...but Hornacek was a better option over either of them...man you just took me back, but there are some similarities there.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

No that was the exact manta being said about MJ. Exactly what you have been saying about BG. Now BG isn't Kobe or MJ but since leaving he is top 10 in scoring in the league. The fact that he can't be a big piece on a championship team is insane. And if you read my origninal post, I said he wasn't on the same level but this argument isn't groundless.

By who? What Special person said get rid of MJ? I don't remember that at all, I don't know how old you were at that time...but Jordan was pretty far down the road to icon status. And if that is true and people asked for MJ to be gone, you should canonize Reinsdorf, not vilify him for signing MJ to a long term deal.

I think this whole scenario is a fabrication.

I think you misunderstood my post, the " I can't believe we resigned that ball hog that disrupted the offensive flow" was sarcastic but many people were saying early in his career that he would never lead a team to a ring and before he got his big deal from JR, JR said something along the lines he would regret signing him to that big of a deal.

 

[houheffna]

I think you misunderstood my post, the " I can't believe we resigned that ball hog that disrupted the offensive flow" was sarcastic but many people were saying early in his career that he would never lead a team to a ring and before he got his big deal from JR, JR said something along the lines he would regret signing him to that big of a deal.

I think what you are talking about happened between JR and Jordan in 1996 or 97, in either case he signed him...so it doesn't matter.

Whoever said that he would never lead a team to a ring playing like he played was right. He had to learn to trust his teammates. That is Phil Jackson's most important contribution to Jordan, the Bulls and NBA history. He got Jordan to trust his teammates and trust the system.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

I think you misunderstood my post, the " I can't believe we resigned that ball hog that disrupted the offensive flow" was sarcastic but many people were saying early in his career that he would never lead a team to a ring and before he got his big deal from JR, JR said something along the lines he would regret signing him to that big of a deal.

I think what you are talking about happened between JR and Jordan in 1996 or 97, in either case he signed him...so it doesn't matter.

Whoever said that he would never lead a team to a ring playing like he played was right. He had to learn to trust his teammates. That is Phil Jackson's most important contribution to Jordan, the Bulls and NBA history. He got Jordan to trust his teammates and trust the system.

No, the common Mantra about MJ before he won his titles was people saying exactly what you said about BG. That he couldn't lead a team to a championship. The second thing did happen in 96 or 97 but the first was repeated pretty commonly among sports media.

 

[??? ??????]

jsain360 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

houheffna wrote:

That is because of the talent on the team...that is funny, we let one go and people get upset, yet they were no better than the Clippers...maybe that is why they are letting certain people go...

Your right, MJ was on 30,38 and 40 win teams, I can't believed we resigned that ball hog sg that disrupted the offensive flow, people said could never lead a team to a ring. Glad no one listened to your line of thinking in 1987. BG isn't MJ but I could see you singing in that chorus back then. Same thing with Kobe being on 34 and 42 win teams, you need more than one guy in the nba.

Mike & Kobe you start franchises w/, Ben Gordon, is a piece, he won't lead a team to a ring, this comparision is totally awful and not even close, comparables to Ben Gordon, Jeff Malone

Exactly, Ben Gordon is a piece.

So you make that trade for Pau Gasol, and you add another damn good piece to the puzzle.

You end up with a core of:

PG-Kirk Hinrich
SG-Ben Gordon
SF-Luol Deng
PF-Pau Gasol
C- Joakim Noah

But, you have Ben Wallace's big ass expiring contract for 2010. So you could add another good piece in trading Wallace's big expiring contract. Would the team win a championship? Maybe not? Would they compete? Probably, and that's all that matters.

 

[houheffna]

I really don't care right now about a Pau Gasol deal from a few years ago...back to Jordan.

So you are saying that Gordon could lead a team to a championship? Yeah...he can buy them tickets, but he can't do that on the court...Jordan had the skill, no one doubted that, it was his not trusting his teammates. Jordan felt he had to put up shots because no one on his team could get the job done. And for a part of his career, he was right...

Gordon can't lead a team to a championship...there I said it. He doesn't have the physical capabilities to do so.

Those types of conversations are bought up when talking about Kobe, Lebron, people like that..and usually has to do with mental capabilities not physical. Gordon is a background singer, he is not good enough to lead. Jordan was the best in the league, his critics were assaulting his selfishness, not his abilities. So again, your argument is groundless.

Gordon's inability to lead a team to a title is a foregone conclusion.

 

[??? ??????]

But Gordon could potentially win a championship, while being the main guy, if he has a great big, like Pau Gasol, and another good defensive big (maybe Emeka Okafor?) on his team, while Kirk Hinrich and Luol Deng play good defense, and score at a decent efficiency.

Ben Gordon is not a superstar talent, but he sure looks like an allstar talent.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

I really don't care right now about a Pau Gasol deal from a few years ago...back to Jordan.

So you are saying that Gordon could lead a team to a championship? Yeah...he can buy them tickets, but he can't do that on the court...Jordan had the skill, no one doubted that, it was his not trusting his teammates. Jordan felt he had to put up shots because no one on his team could get the job done. And for a part of his career, he was right...

Gordon can't lead a team to a championship...there I said it. He doesn't have the physical capabilities to do so.

Those types of conversations are bought up when talking about Kobe, Lebron, people like that..and usually has to do with mental capabilities not physical. Gordon is a background singer, he is not good enough to lead. Jordan was the best in the league, his critics were assaulting his selfishness, not his abilities. So again, your argument is groundless.

Gordon's inability to lead a team to a title is a foregone conclusion.

Well you might not care about a Pau Gasol trade but the fact that this team continually will avoid personnel moves and not resign players is the biggest obstacle to having a contender. The luxury tax issues are insane, the supposed mantra that they will pay for a contender. I haven't seen it. Wasn't our 49 win team that was missing a post player a borderline contender? Wouldn't adding Pau Gasol to a 49 win team make them a contender, BS, unless we fall in to a goat having a crappy core of Deng and kirk taking up 30% of the lt figure will never all us to build a contender.

And you keep hinting at the Kobe and Lebrons and a few years ago it was KG. WE AREN"T GETTING ANY OF THOSE GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!! Are we going to be mediocre forever waiting for one or are we going to try another way?

 

[??? ??????]

TheStig wrote:

houheffna wrote:

I really don't care right now about a Pau Gasol deal from a few years ago...back to Jordan.

So you are saying that Gordon could lead a team to a championship? Yeah...he can buy them tickets, but he can't do that on the court...Jordan had the skill, no one doubted that, it was his not trusting his teammates. Jordan felt he had to put up shots because no one on his team could get the job done. And for a part of his career, he was right...

Gordon can't lead a team to a championship...there I said it. He doesn't have the physical capabilities to do so.

Those types of conversations are bought up when talking about Kobe, Lebron, people like that..and usually has to do with mental capabilities not physical. Gordon is a background singer, he is not good enough to lead. Jordan was the best in the league, his critics were assaulting his selfishness, not his abilities. So again, your argument is groundless.

Gordon's inability to lead a team to a title is a foregone conclusion.

Well you might not care about a Pau Gasol trade but the fact that this team continually will avoid personnel moves and not resign players is the biggest obstacle to having a contender. The luxury tax issues are insane, the supposed mantra that they will pay for a contender. I haven't seen it. Wasn't our 49 win team that was missing a post player a borderline contender? Wouldn't adding Pau Gasol to a 49 win team make them a contender, BS, unless we fall in to a goat having a crappy core of Deng and kirk taking up 30% of the lt figure will never all us to build a contender.

And you keep hinting at the Kobe and Lebrons and a few years ago it was KG. WE AREN"T GETTING ANY OF THOSE GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!! Are we going to be mediocre forever waiting for one or are we going to try another way?

FWIW, the Pau Gasol trade I'm referring to was during the 07-08 season, when we weren't doing too hot.

There was a separate Gasol trade that involved Luol Deng, and stuff, where we would have had to give up something significant.

The second one was essentially Ty Thomas and a sign and traded PJ Brown for Pau Gasol, where we give up basically nothing for something.

A trade like that isn't something you pass up imho.

 

[TheStig]

??? ?????? wrote:

TheStig wrote:

houheffna wrote:

I really don't care right now about a Pau Gasol deal from a few years ago...back to Jordan.

So you are saying that Gordon could lead a team to a championship? Yeah...he can buy them tickets, but he can't do that on the court...Jordan had the skill, no one doubted that, it was his not trusting his teammates. Jordan felt he had to put up shots because no one on his team could get the job done. And for a part of his career, he was right...

Gordon can't lead a team to a championship...there I said it. He doesn't have the physical capabilities to do so.

Those types of conversations are bought up when talking about Kobe, Lebron, people like that..and usually has to do with mental capabilities not physical. Gordon is a background singer, he is not good enough to lead. Jordan was the best in the league, his critics were assaulting his selfishness, not his abilities. So again, your argument is groundless.

Gordon's inability to lead a team to a title is a foregone conclusion.

Well you might not care about a Pau Gasol trade but the fact that this team continually will avoid personnel moves and not resign players is the biggest obstacle to having a contender. The luxury tax issues are insane, the supposed mantra that they will pay for a contender. I haven't seen it. Wasn't our 49 win team that was missing a post player a borderline contender? Wouldn't adding Pau Gasol to a 49 win team make them a contender, BS, unless we fall in to a goat having a crappy core of Deng and kirk taking up 30% of the lt figure will never all us to build a contender.

And you keep hinting at the Kobe and Lebrons and a few years ago it was KG. WE AREN"T GETTING ANY OF THOSE GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!! Are we going to be mediocre forever waiting for one or are we going to try another way?

FWIW, the Pau Gasol trade I'm referring to was during the 07-08 season, when we weren't doing too hot.

There was a separate Gasol trade that involved Luol Deng, and stuff, where we would have had to give up something significant.

The second one was essentially Ty Thomas and a sign and traded PJ Brown for Pau Gasol, where we give up basically nothing for something.

A trade like that isn't something you pass up imho.

Right but the second one was coming off the 49 win year. Its not like we were even a season removed, this team always slumped and picked it up before that year. Its not unreasonable to believe that Pau gasol would have sparked that.

 

[houheffna]

And you keep hinting at the Kobe and Lebrons and a few years ago it was KG. WE AREN"T GETTING ANY OF THOSE GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!! Are we going to be mediocre forever waiting for one or are we going to try another way?

My point is that you are equating the complaints about BG with Jordan complaints, that is senseless. Jordan was the best in the game when those complaints of his selfishness surfaced. BG is a supporting cast type player...

And no, BG and Gasol would not when a championship in any league I would want to watch...

 

[pinkizdead]

houheffna wrote:

Pau is not a championship number 1. He is not a "chief" as Reggie Miller said. He is inferior to players on that level and you couldn't beat Lebron and Howard with him as your best player...plus he doesn't have that mentality...like Kobe or Garnett has...

i guess we can agree to disagree. i think pau outplayed kobe in the series. i think if you take pau way from that team, they aren't the dominant team in the west.

 

[Shakes]

??? ?????? wrote:

But Gordon could potentially win a championship, while being the main guy, if he has a great big, like Pau Gasol, and another good defensive big (maybe Emeka Okafor?) on his team, while Kirk Hinrich and Luol Deng play good defense, and score at a decent efficiency.

Ben Gordon is not a superstar talent, but he sure looks like an allstar talent.

If Pau is on the team he's the best player, not BG. If Noah is on the team too, then I'd argue BG probably isn't even the second best player by the time that team wins a championship.

 

[Shakes]

??? ?????? wrote:

The second one was essentially Ty Thomas and a sign and traded PJ Brown for Pau Gasol, where we give up basically nothing for something.

A trade like that isn't something you pass up imho.

That trade is worse for the Griz than the trade they actually took. There's no reason to believe it's anything but internet rumour.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

And you keep hinting at the Kobe and Lebrons and a few years ago it was KG. WE AREN"T GETTING ANY OF THOSE GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!! Are we going to be mediocre forever waiting for one or are we going to try another way?

My point is that you are equating the complaints about BG with Jordan complaints, that is senseless. Jordan was the best in the game when those complaints of his selfishness surfaced. BG is a supporting cast type player...

And no, BG and Gasol would not when a championship in any league I would want to watch...

No my point is that the same exact things were said about Jordan, Kobe KG and BG. Granted BG isn't the same type of player, all of those guys failed without a real team around them. None of them flourished till they got another star. If we continue down this path, Rose will surely fail. Going into the LT for a contender is a catch 22, most teams become a contender only after spending the LT. They need that other piece. With path we are going down, Rose will surely fail too.

Pau and BG would more likely not win a title but they would be a top 4 team in the east and probably at least make the ecf.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

The second one was essentially Ty Thomas and a sign and traded PJ Brown for Pau Gasol, where we give up basically nothing for something.

A trade like that isn't something you pass up imho.

That trade is worse for the Griz than the trade they actually took. There's no reason to believe it's anything but internet rumour.

How is it worse? Its much better, they get instant cap space by cutting PJ Brown and TT was a much better prospect at the time than Gasol and we could have given them better first rounders.