Don't Compare Bulls and Clippers...

[Shakes]

TheStig wrote:

Shakes wrote:

??? ?????? wrote:

The second one was essentially Ty Thomas and a sign and traded PJ Brown for Pau Gasol, where we give up basically nothing for something.

A trade like that isn't something you pass up imho.

That trade is worse for the Griz than the trade they actually took. There's no reason to believe it's anything but internet rumour.

How is it worse? Its much better, they get instant cap space by cutting PJ Brown and TT was a much better prospect at the time than Gasol and we could have given them better first rounders.

They already had that space from the expirings LA gave them. Marc Gasol is a better player than Tyrus, players a harder to fill position and is cheaper. Let's not pretend Tyrus is Mr Trade Value here.

The deal was stated as "something for nothing", so I assume we weren't giving up that year's lottery pick. If we give up future picks, if the team is as successful as it's claimed Gasol would make it, the picks are no better than the ones they got.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:
Everyone calls him cheap...no one can tell me when he closed the wallet to an offer to make his team a contender...[/quote]

I can, 1999. He let the team get broken up. He could of made Phil a sweet offer to coach in 1999 but he deferred to his little runt Jerry Krause.

And JR is cheap, thus everyone calls him cheap.

Krause is a mediocre GM that was given the greatest player off all-time and he buitl a title around him. Congrats. He made some good moves but he made twice a many bad ones. Krause is an average GM. Any decent GM could have done the same thing if they were handed Michael Jordan.

 

[Diddy1122]

BG should never, EVER, be compared to MJ, in any sense. I can understand the point of trying to compare what people were saying about MJ to what they say about BG, but the fact remains BG is not even in the same stratosphere as MJ. Most people never believed, & still don't, that BG will lead a team to a ring. The same cannot be said of MJ. Yes, people did say MJ's selfishness would keep him from getting a ring, but with BG it's his talent level, not selfishness. BG is a very good player, but he's not a superstar, people need to get that out of their heads.

And those 80's Bulls teams had NO ONE other than MJ, so it's not a surprise that MJ was selfish. Oakley was the 2nd best player on those teams for cryin' out loud. Once there was better talent around MJ, & the Zen Master arrived, MJ began to trust his teammates more & the rest is history.

 

[Diddy1122]

Kush77 wrote:

houheffna wrote:
Everyone calls him cheap...no one can tell me when he closed the wallet to an offer to make his team a contender...

I can, 1999. He let the team get broken up. He could of made Phil a sweet offer to coach in 1999 but he deferred to his little runt Jerry Krause.

And JR is cheap, thus everyone calls him cheap.

Krause is a mediocre GM that was given the greatest player off all-time and he buitl a title around him. Congrats. He made some good moves but he made twice a many bad ones. Krause is an average GM. Any decent GM could have done the same thing if they were handed Michael Jordan.[/quote]

Did you read my mind Kush? I didn't know scanners existed in real life. If you could, please blow up JR's head for me.

Krause is the most overrated GM of all time. And it sickens me that I have to see that ridiculous banner hanging in the UC everytime I go to a Bulls game.

On a side note, guess who's led the league in attendance the last 10 years? That's right our Bulls. But that still won't get JR to release the kung fu grip on his wallet. We all know he needs the Bulls money to support his true love, the White Sox.

 

[TheStig]

Diddy1122 wrote:

BG should never, EVER, be compared to MJ, in any sense. I can understand the point of trying to compare what people were saying about MJ to what they say about BG, but the fact remains BG is not even in the same stratosphere as MJ. Most people never believed, & still don't, that BG will lead a team to a ring. The same cannot be said of MJ. Yes, people did say MJ's selfishness would keep him from getting a ring, but with BG it's his talent level, not selfishness. BG is a very good player, but he's not a superstar, people need to get that out of their heads.

And those 80's Bulls teams had NO ONE other than MJ, so it's not a surprise that MJ was selfish. Oakley was the 2nd best player on those teams for cryin' out loud. Once there was better talent around MJ, & the Zen Master arrived, MJ began to trust his teammates more & the rest is history.

My point was that that statement could be applied to anyone. You can't win in the nba by yourself. It takes multiple stars. Hou is getting into a dangerous precedant with that statement because with the way this team is going, the same will be said about Rose.

Those teams weren't completly stripped of talent. Jordan came into the league with woolridge on the team and then got oakley and paxson and then pippen and grant and cartwright. By the late 80's the first three peat team was put together.

 

[houheffna]

On a side note, guess who's led the league in attendance the last 10 years? That's right our Bulls. But that still won't get JR to release the kung fu grip on his wallet. We all know he needs the Bulls money to support his true love, the White Sox.

You have no evidence at all to support that...unless you are his accountant, if you were, you wouldn't be on this forum...

I can, 1999. He let the team get broken up. He could of made Phil a sweet offer to coach in 1999 but he deferred to his little runt Jerry Krause.

JR offered Phil Jackson and extension....you guys are talking nonsense that you cannot back up...I wish you would have some facts to back up these baseless claims...all stemming from one decent player's leaving...its pure nonsense...all this talk comparing the Bulls to the Clippers and Reinsdorf being cheap...He is SMART people! He didn't get this far by letting you or me spend his money.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1936782

So the person that is blamed for the end of that dynasty should be vilified....well here you go...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

On a side note, guess who's led the league in attendance the last 10 years? That's right our Bulls. But that still won't get JR to release the kung fu grip on his wallet. We all know he needs the Bulls money to support his true love, the White Sox.

You have no evidence at all to support that...unless you are his accountant, if you were, you wouldn't be on this forum...

I can, 1999. He let the team get broken up. He could of made Phil a sweet offer to coach in 1999 but he deferred to his little runt Jerry Krause.

JR offered Phil Jackson and extension....you guys are talking nonsense that you cannot back up...I wish you would have some facts to back up these baseless claims...all stemming from one decent player's leaving...its pure nonsense...all this talk comparing the Bulls to the Clippers and Reinsdorf being cheap...He is SMART people! He didn't get this far by letting you or me spend his money.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1936782

So the person that is blamed for the end of that dynasty should be vilified....well here you go...

Really? Why are the white sox allowed to have twice the payroll while they have nearly the same gross income. The white sox operate to break even adn the bulls are run for a profit.

The problem from what I remember wasn't reupping jordan or phil for a year. its that longley, pippen and kerr all were looking for and got big multiyear deals that we weren't willing to offer. Remember this is the club that let bison dele walk over money after he gave them a huge boost.

 

[houheffna]

Bison Dele? Bison Dele?

WHAT????????

You brought up Bison Dele? Did you read the article?

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

On a side note, guess who's led the league in attendance the last 10 years? That's right our Bulls. But that still won't get JR to release the kung fu grip on his wallet. We all know he needs the Bulls money to support his true love, the White Sox.

You have no evidence at all to support that...unless you are his accountant, if you were, you wouldn't be on this forum...

I can, 1999. He let the team get broken up. He could of made Phil a sweet offer to coach in 1999 but he deferred to his little runt Jerry Krause.

JR offered Phil Jackson and extension....you guys are talking nonsense that you cannot back up...I wish you would have some facts to back up these baseless claims...all stemming from one decent player's leaving...its pure nonsense...all this talk comparing the Bulls to the Clippers and Reinsdorf being cheap...He is SMART people! He didn't get this far by letting you or me spend his money.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1936782

So the person that is blamed for the end of that dynasty should be vilified....well here you go...

No, JR offered Phil a 1-year deal under the condition that Tim Floyd be his understudy. JR knew Phil wouldn't go for that, thus it was a desperate attempt by JR to save face in the media and among fans.

I don't speak nonsense Hou, sorry.

Again, JR is a good business man. Yes. I've said that. But sports is about competition and winning. JR is about money first, then winning 2nd, 3rd or 4th. George Steinbrenner is a great businessman, but he's about winning 1st. He spends and wins and makes even more money. Super stadium, another world championship and a entire network named after the team itself.

Unfortunately there are too many businessmen that own sports team solely for profit and don't care about winning. There are other ways to make big money if you have the type of clout a guy like JR does. Fans suffer as a result.

It's pathetic that the Bulls don't keep Derrick Byars because they don't want to lose their share of the luxury tax payout. WTF? This is Chicago, not Charlotte. I'm sure the Bulls franchise would have to cease operations if they don't get that payout. What a joke.
JR is a joke, the sooner he's gone from this franchise the better.

 

[Kush77]

TheStig wrote:
Really? Why are the white sox allowed to have twice the payroll while they have nearly the same gross income. The white sox operate to break even adn the bulls are run for a profit.

The problem from what I remember wasn't reupping jordan or phil for a year. its that longley, pippen and kerr all were looking for and got big multiyear deals that we weren't willing to offer. Remember this is the club that let bison dele walk over money after he gave them a huge boost.[/quote]

When it comes to the Sox it is a 25-man roster vs 12 or 14 so that makes up some of the difference. But you're right that Jerry does invest far more in his baseball team.

As for the late Bison Dele (or Brian Williams), there was no way the Bulls were gonna keep him, and rightfully so. He got waaaay overpaid by Detroit. Similar to the way Scott Williams got waaay overpaid by Philly after the 1994 season. I would agree that the Bulls not resign him for that type of money. the Bulls got a great deal with him, basically renting him for the last 15 games of the 1997 season and the playoffs. He was great, but not worth the 50-something million he ended up getting. I think he retired before the deal was even done. Never lived up to it either. I think the Bulls and Bison both knew he wasn't coming back. Especially since the Bulls were gonna pay huge for Jordan and Rodman again.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Bison Dele? Bison Dele?

WHAT????????

You brought up Bison Dele? Did you read the article?

Yes Bison Dele was a big part of the front court during one of our runs. The article even confirms one of my points. That JR would only sign everyone else to one year deals. Pippen, Kerr and Longley would have left for sure, they all got much better offers and don't give me that s&t nonsense about pippen. S&ts get done like that all the time.

 

[TheStig]

Kush77 wrote:

TheStig wrote:
Really? Why are the white sox allowed to have twice the payroll while they have nearly the same gross income. The white sox operate to break even adn the bulls are run for a profit.

The problem from what I remember wasn't reupping jordan or phil for a year. its that longley, pippen and kerr all were looking for and got big multiyear deals that we weren't willing to offer. Remember this is the club that let bison dele walk over money after he gave them a huge boost.

When it comes to the Sox it is a 25-man roster vs 12 or 14 so that makes up some of the difference. But you're right that Jerry does invest far more in his baseball team.

As for the late Bison Dele (or Brian Williams), there was no way the Bulls were gonna keep him, and rightfully so. He got waaaay overpaid by Detroit. Similar to the way Scott Williams got waaay overpaid by Philly after the 1994 season. I would agree that the Bulls not resign him for that type of money. the Bulls got a great deal with him, basically renting him for the last 15 games of the 1997 season and the playoffs. He was great, but not worth the 50-something million he ended up getting. I think he retired before the deal was even done. Never lived up to it either. I think the Bulls and Bison both knew he wasn't coming back. Especially since the Bulls were gonna pay huge for Jordan and Rodman again.[/quote]

The 14 versu 25 man roster isn't really valid, you have teams in bbaseball that spend 30mill on a roster. Your not even allowed to spend 36 mill on a roster in the nba due to a minumum salary requirement.

Fine, Dele got overpaid but the point that Hou always makes is that we are willing to spend on a contender and even when we were a contender we still lost guys due to not wanting to overspend.

 

[houheffna]

Kush,

you brought up Derrick Byars....

are you really pissed about Derrick Byars...

This team is trying to put together a presentation to entice Wade and Lebron and Bosh to come here....Derrick Byars...

You are wrong man...admit it...

I have heard for many years going back to both WMVP and the Score about the truth concerning what happened with that team, though not to that detail.

Phil was offered a long-term deal, not one year, long-term...Jordan was offered a long-term deal and the promise that all of his players would come back and get deals commiserate to his deal. And by the way...how much of the Bulls does Reinsdorf actually own? Steinbrenner inherited a great business...Reinsdorf didn't have any such luck. Its funny that you have to go to MLB where there are different rules to bash Reinsdorf, but it doesn't work...

 

[houheffna]

Fine, Dele got overpaid but the point that Hou always makes is that we are willing to spend on a contender and even when we were a contender we still lost guys due to not wanting to overspend.

Read the article, man...read the article

You will gain a fresh new perspective...it will ruin the "Reinsdorf is the wicked witch" fantasy so many of you have but hey...Santa Claus might not be real either...

 

[Kush77]

TheStig wrote:

Kush77 wrote:

TheStig wrote:
Really? Why are the white sox allowed to have twice the payroll while they have nearly the same gross income. The white sox operate to break even adn the bulls are run for a profit.

The problem from what I remember wasn't reupping jordan or phil for a year. its that longley, pippen and kerr all were looking for and got big multiyear deals that we weren't willing to offer. Remember this is the club that let bison dele walk over money after he gave them a huge boost.

When it comes to the Sox it is a 25-man roster vs 12 or 14 so that makes up some of the difference. But you're right that Jerry does invest far more in his baseball team.

As for the late Bison Dele (or Brian Williams), there was no way the Bulls were gonna keep him, and rightfully so. He got waaaay overpaid by Detroit. Similar to the way Scott Williams got waaay overpaid by Philly after the 1994 season. I would agree that the Bulls not resign him for that type of money. the Bulls got a great deal with him, basically renting him for the last 15 games of the 1997 season and the playoffs. He was great, but not worth the 50-something million he ended up getting. I think he retired before the deal was even done. Never lived up to it either. I think the Bulls and Bison both knew he wasn't coming back. Especially since the Bulls were gonna pay huge for Jordan and Rodman again.

The 14 versu 25 man roster isn't really valid, you have teams in bbaseball that spend 30mill on a roster. Your not even allowed to spend 36 mill on a roster in the nba due to a minumum salary requirement.

Fine, Dele got overpaid but the point that Hou always makes is that we are willing to spend on a contender and even when we were a contender we still lost guys due to not wanting to overspend.[/quote]

the 12-man roster vs 25-man roster is valid. That's twice the payroll. Sure there are teams that have 30-million dollar payrolls, those teams are called the Pittsburgh Pirates. And the teams that have that low of payrolls that win, like the Marlins, end up trading their good players like Josh Beckett, Derek Lee and I would bet soon Hanley Ramirez because they won't pay them big contracts.

The Sox had some good players that were paid accordingly, so that makes a big difference. But Jerry has had his cheap moments with the Sox too, like the 1997 white flag trade.

But when it comes to Brian Williams (or Dele) I'm not 100% sure if the Bulls could resign him unless he was willing to take the minimum. I don't know what the rules were in 1997, but the Bird rule was in effect, being able to sign your own player to as much as you want.

But I looked it up and Williams only played 9 games for the Bulls in March/April of 1997. I don't think he would have qualified for Larry Bird rights with the Bulls with only playing 9 regular season games.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Kush,

you brought up Derrick Byars....

are you really pissed about Derrick Byars...

This team is trying to put together a presentation to entice Wade and Lebron and Bosh to come here....Derrick Byars...

You are wrong man...admit it...

I have heard for many years going back to both WMVP and the Score about the truth concerning what happened with that team, though not to that detail.

Phil was offered a long-term deal, not one year, long-term...Jordan was offered a long-term deal and the promise that all of his players would come back and get deals commiserate to his deal. And by the way...how much of the Bulls does Reinsdorf actually own? Steinbrenner inherited a great business...Reinsdorf didn't have any such luck. Its funny that you have to go to MLB where there are different rules to bash Reinsdorf, but it doesn't work...

How exactly doesn't it work. You have two business that generate near identical income. One is allowed to spend an additional 25-30 mill per year on salaries. One is run to break even and the other has the highest income in the league. Clearly one is run as a sports team and hobby and the other is run as a business.

 

[houheffna]

How exactly doesn't it work. You have two business that generate near identical income. One is allowed to spend an additional 25-30 mill per year on salaries. One is run to break even and the other has the highest income in the league. Clearly one is run as a sports team and hobby and the other is run as a business.

He treats both franchises the same...like business...with both franchises...

do you want to know the difference? The Sox have a better general manager...there, that is it...that is all.

The Bulls GM Paxson tried to rebuild and failed...good try, but he failed.

He didn't build a contender, the guy on the South Side did.

If people are going to make accusations that Reinsdorf is funding the Sox with Bulls money, you should have some kind of proof. The break even stuff doesn't work. The Sox have substantially CUT payroll.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Kush,

you brought up Derrick Byars....

are you really pissed about Derrick Byars...

This team is trying to put together a presentation to entice Wade and Lebron and Bosh to come here....Derrick Byars...

You are wrong man...admit it...

I have heard for many years going back to both WMVP and the Score about the truth concerning what happened with that team, though not to that detail.

Phil was offered a long-term deal, not one year, long-term...Jordan was offered a long-term deal and the promise that all of his players would come back and get deals commiserate to his deal. And by the way...how much of the Bulls does Reinsdorf actually own? Steinbrenner inherited a great business...Reinsdorf didn't have any such luck. Its funny that you have to go to MLB where there are different rules to bash Reinsdorf, but it doesn't work...

When were MJ and Phil offered these long-term deals? I'm talking the end of 1998. I highly doubt Phil and MJ were offered long-term deals at the end of 1998. They weren't. Phil was offered a 1-year deal with the Tim Floyd understudy thing.

Maybe they were offered long-term deals after 1996. But both Phil and Mike said they wanted to operate 1 year at a time. And there's no reason why it couldn't of continued that way.

And how long is long-term by the way? I don't think JR was offering a 31-32 year old MJ a 7 year deal at 30 million per.

George inherited a great business, sure. What you're point? He took a great business and made it better. Steinbrenner bought the Yankees in 1973, they hadn't won a title since 1964. So it's not like he took over the Yankees in the middle of Babe Ruth's heyday. So my example does work, because my point is you can be a good business man and still spend money on your team. Steinbrenner cares about winning FIRST, JR doesn't.

And I don't need to go to the MLB, I'll stay in the NBA if you wish. Mark Cuban. He cares about winning first. I guarantee you Mark Cuban doesn't botch a 90's Bulls-like dynasty because of his cheapness.
With Mark Cuban none of that would be a problem because guys would have been paid and/or rewarded for their championship success.

Here's one example. How come after being the starting PF on three title teams was Horace Grant not locked up long-term??? Because the Bulls are cheap. Any good owner would lock up championship caliber players and keep the organization happy and rolling along. But not JR. He cares about money first.

I also don't buy that Sam Smith article. Sorry. Jordan would have come back in 1999. He just didn't want admit defeat to the Jerrys. That's why he retired. Had he come back and played under Tim Floyd in 1999 that would be MJ admitting defeat to the Jerrys. And we all know MJ wouldn't lose that battle.

He was willing to walk away form the game than lose a PR battle with the Jerrys.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Kush,

you brought up Derrick Byars....

are you really pissed about Derrick Byars...

This team is trying to put together a presentation to entice Wade and Lebron and Bosh to come here....Derrick Byars...

You are wrong man...admit it...

I have heard for many years going back to both WMVP and the Score about the truth concerning what happened with that team, though not to that detail.

Phil was offered a long-term deal, not one year, long-term...Jordan was offered a long-term deal and the promise that all of his players would come back and get deals commiserate to his deal. And by the way...how much of the Bulls does Reinsdorf actually own? Steinbrenner inherited a great business...Reinsdorf didn't have any such luck. Its funny that you have to go to MLB where there are different rules to bash Reinsdorf, but it doesn't work...

Hou, you're twisting my points again.

I'm not unhappy about Derrick Byars. I'm unhappy about the reason he was let go.

Because the poor old cash-strapped Bulls didn't want to lose their slice of the luxury tax payout. The last time I checked Chicago was the 3rd lasrgest media market in the United States. Yet the Bulls operate with the mindset of Charlotte or New Orleans. It's a joke.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

How exactly doesn't it work. You have two business that generate near identical income. One is allowed to spend an additional 25-30 mill per year on salaries. One is run to break even and the other has the highest income in the league. Clearly one is run as a sports team and hobby and the other is run as a business.

He treats both franchises the same...like business...with both franchises...

do you want to know the difference? The Sox have a better general manager...there, that is it...that is all.

The Bulls GM Paxson tried to rebuild and failed...good try, but he failed.

He didn't build a contender, the guy on the South Side did.

If people are going to make accusations that Reinsdorf is funding the Sox with Bulls money, you should have some kind of proof. The break even stuff doesn't work. The Sox have substantially CUT payroll.

Where did I say he is funding them with Bulls money? Please point that out. I said that they run one as a sports team and the other as a business. The white sox over the better part of the decade have been run at a break even point. They don't generate a real profit. The bulls on the other hand, with the same gross income run a league leading profit and are well over the league average. Their profit is so great over the last 10 years that they could purchase almost any other nba franchise for cash.