Don't Compare Bulls and Clippers...

[houheffna]

I also don't buy that Sam Smith article. Sorry. Jordan would have come back in 1999. He just didn't want admit defeat to the Jerrys. That's why he retired. Had he come back and played under Tim Floyd in 1999 that would be MJ admitting defeat to the Jerrys. And we all know MJ wouldn't lose that battle.

And how do you know what Jordan would have done? You don't know what Jordan would have done. Only Jordan knows what Jordan is going to do. You yourself seem to be admitting pettiness on the part of Jordan. SOMEBODY had to coach the Bulls. Phil didnt want to come back. He wouldn't accept an extension. It makes no difference if it was 96, 97, or 98. They offered him a great deal. JR wanted him back, Krause wanted him to go to hell. JR is the boss. It states clearly that Floyd's coaching assignment was not etched in stone. You may not want to believe the article because it totally deflates all of the negativity towards Reinsdorf...but that is what you choose to believe. I smell a little stubbornness on your part myself...

Stig, you are wrong and you have no evidence to back up your claims...he runs both as a business and has stated such. This is NOT a hobby to him...sue him. Fortunately, he understands that winning is good business. I find no fault in that philosophy. He has 6 rings. People like Cuban, the Maloofs and Allen in Portland see it as a hobby, and they have how many rings?

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

I also don't buy that Sam Smith article. Sorry. Jordan would have come back in 1999. He just didn't want admit defeat to the Jerrys. That's why he retired. Had he come back and played under Tim Floyd in 1999 that would be MJ admitting defeat to the Jerrys. And we all know MJ wouldn't lose that battle.

And how do you know what Jordan would have done? You don't know what Jordan would have done. Only Jordan knows what Jordan is going to do. You yourself seem to be admitting pettiness on the part of Jordan. SOMEBODY had to coach the Bulls. Phil didnt want to come back. He wouldn't accept an extension. It makes no difference if it was 96, 97, or 98. They offered him a great deal. JR wanted him back, Krause wanted him to go to hell. JR is the boss. It states clearly that Floyd's coaching assignment was not etched in stone. You may not want to believe the article because it totally deflates all of the negativity towards Reinsdorf...but that is what you choose to believe. I smell a little stubbornness on your part myself...

Stig, you are wrong and you have no evidence to back up your claims...he runs both as a business and has stated such. This is NOT a hobby to him...sue him. Fortunately, he understands that winning is good business. I find no fault in that philosophy. He has 6 rings. People like Cuban, the Maloofs and Allen in Portland see it as a hobby, and they have how many rings?

So why would we believe smith then? He wouldn't know either.

What is your evidence to the contrary? You have absolutely no evidence and yet you have somehow decided I am wrong. The numbers don't lie. Where is your proof?

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chi...fact-or-fiction-jerry-reinsdorf-is-cheap.html

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/32/nba08_NBA-Team-Valuations_Rank.html

As I have said, with his profits on the bulls in the last 10 years alone, he can buy almost any nba franchise he wants for cash. There are a handful of teams that are worth only a bit more. The bulls make almost 10x the league average.

 

[houheffna]

As I have said, with his profits on the bulls in the last 10 years alone, he can buy almost any nba franchise he wants for cash. There are a handful of teams that are worth only a bit more. The bulls make almost 10x the league average.

His profits? His profits? How much were his profits? What percentage of the team does he own...he is Chairman of the Board, not the sole owner...this stuff does nothing to bolster your claims.

Why wouldn't Smith know? He would know more than anybody else I have seen on this site, because he was there. He wrote how many books? Jordan disliked him for it...but Jordan knew the stuff was true. I hate to burst your bubble with Sam's article. But I have been saying for months now. He is not to blame, for the most part, the people that should be blamed, are your heroes...Jordan, Phil, Pax...those are to blame for the end of the dynasty.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

I also don't buy that Sam Smith article. Sorry. Jordan would have come back in 1999. He just didn't want admit defeat to the Jerrys. That's why he retired. Had he come back and played under Tim Floyd in 1999 that would be MJ admitting defeat to the Jerrys. And we all know MJ wouldn't lose that battle.

And how do you know what Jordan would have done? You don't know what Jordan would have done. Only Jordan knows what Jordan is going to do. You yourself seem to be admitting pettiness on the part of Jordan. SOMEBODY had to coach the Bulls. Phil didnt want to come back. He wouldn't accept an extension. It makes no difference if it was 96, 97, or 98. They offered him a great deal. JR wanted him back, Krause wanted him to go to hell. JR is the boss. It states clearly that Floyd's coaching assignment was not etched in stone. You may not want to believe the article because it totally deflates all of the negativity towards Reinsdorf...but that is what you choose to believe. I smell a little stubbornness on your part myself...

Stig, you are wrong and you have no evidence to back up your claims...he runs both as a business and has stated such. This is NOT a hobby to him...sue him. Fortunately, he understands that winning is good business. I find no fault in that philosophy. He has 6 rings. People like Cuban, the Maloofs and Allen in Portland see it as a hobby, and they have how many rings?

Phil didn't want a long-term extension. It does matter if it was 1996, 1997 or 1998 because he wasn't offered a long-term extension in 1998. He was offered a 1-year deal. He didn't accept a long-term deal in 1996 or 1997 (if there was an offer) because he wasn't going to commit to the team long-term after MJ, scottie etc.. If the team was broken up. Phil wasn't going to do the rebuilding thing with the Bulls.

It's pretty simple, Jerry Reinsdorf and Jerry Krause were somehow dumb enough to f**k up a championship franchise. Bottom line. Any other owner, like a Mark Cuban would have been smart enough to keep their championship talent happy and not alienate them.

I know Jordan still wanted to play because - he came back and played in Washington. And you keep saying Phil wouldn't accept an extension. He was offered a 1-year deal with the Tim Floyd thing. that wasn't a real offer. So after 1998 he wasn't offered a REAL extension. If he was then he probably would have came back. And so would Jordan.

Don't you remember how Jordan kept saying in the media how he would only play for Phil. I remember him speaking to a group of kids and there was a Q&A with them. One of the kids asked him why do you only want to play for Phil? And he made the analogy of having your parents replaced. That's what he told the kid. So you can call it pettiness on Jordan's part. Whatever. When you're the GOAT you can make those types of demands. He wasn't the first and he won't be the last.

The article doesn't deflate anything. The bottom line is the Jerry screwed up because the owner is cheap and the GM has an ego that's way too big. They screwed up, they f'ed up a 1-car funeral. However you want to say it.

So I'll believe what I want to believe and you can continue to defend Jerry Reinsdorf and Jerry Krause. The only management in the history of sports to breakup a dynasty and run the greatest player of all-time out of town. Can you name me some other owners that did that?

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

Say guys...do you know who the Bulls really remind me of?

The Los Angeles Clippers.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

As I have said, with his profits on the bulls in the last 10 years alone, he can buy almost any nba franchise he wants for cash. There are a handful of teams that are worth only a bit more. The bulls make almost 10x the league average.

His profits? His profits? How much were his profits? What percentage of the team does he own...he is Chairman of the Board, not the sole owner...this stuff does nothing to bolster your claims.

Why wouldn't Smith know? He would know more than anybody else I have seen on this site, because he was there. He wrote how many books? Jordan disliked him for it...but Jordan knew the stuff was true. I hate to burst your bubble with Sam's article. But I have been saying for months now. He is not to blame, for the most part, the people that should be blamed, are your heroes...Jordan, Phil, Pax...those are to blame for the end of the dynasty.

Oh BS, now you are back peddling. I don't care if he owns 1% or 100% he is the managing partner and with that make all the final decisions. Its his call, no one elses and doesn't have to answer. On top of being the managing partner he is a majority owner with a share of 56.8%, so any vote that does happen he can easily resolve with his vote alone. Everyone else is effectively a minority shareholder. Further more, the numbers prove exactly what I was saying, one is a hobby and the other is business.

First Sam knows, then no one can know, which one is it? You can't have it both ways. Unless you are working under the theory Sam Smith is Jordan's clark kent.

 

[Kush77]

Does Sam really know or was he just writing a column to take a different side?

A high majority of Bulls fans blame management. So maybe Sam decided to take the other side and bring up some points. But none of it is 100% sure that it would of happened or if it was true.

The column was from Dec of 2004. Almost 6 years after everything. Why not write this column sooner during the height of the "oh my God the Bulls are breaking up" drama. Or maybe 2001 when Jordan came back?

 

[houheffna]

Believe what you want...
I think you know your argument is futile. These are grown ass men. A little discomfort in organizations is normal. Jordan aint Mother Teresa either. He could be a tyrant when he wanted to. All of them lied to the media. That is part of their jobs. Jordan can lie to kids too, matter of fact if your story is correct, he DID lie to the kids...or did I sleep through Phil's tenure as coach of the Washington Wizards?
But I would love to see YOUR source of information...that could be more credible than Sam Smith. Maybe K.C. Johnson said something?

So to you this is a tall tale and you know the truth...

To me, this is pretty accurate and your version goes in the "myth" bin along with the stories about the Easter Bunny and the Loch Ness Monster...

We once again agree to disagree.

 

[houheffna]

Does Sam really know or was he just writing a column to take a different side?

A high majority of Bulls fans blame management. So maybe Sam decided to take the other side and bring up some points. But none of it is 100% sure that it would of happened or if it was true.

The column was from Dec of 2004. Almost 6 years after everything. Why not write this column sooner during the height of the "oh my God the Bulls are breaking up" drama. Or maybe 2001 when Jordan came back?

What difference does it make? Lets be truthful, if it was written 6 years earlier, would you have said "Oh shit, my fault, I am dead wrong!"...I doubt it. I heard that stuff way before Sam wrote it. Cannot believe the campfire tales are still being spread.

 

[houheffna]

Oh BS, now you are back peddling. I don't care if he owns 1% or 100% he is the managing partner and with that make all the final decisions. Its his call, no one elses and doesn't have to answer. On top of being the managing partner he is a majority owner with a share of 56.8%, so any vote that does happen he can easily resolve with his vote alone. Everyone else is effectively a minority shareholder. Further more, the numbers prove exactly what I was saying, one is a hobby and the other is business.

First Sam knows, then no one can know, which one is it? You can't have it both ways. Unless you are working under the theory Sam Smith is Jordan's clark kent.

My point about how much he owns...which varies according to who you talk to. All of the money is not his, but you want to tell him how to spend the money he makes...which is illegal. He spends his money as he wishes. I am not back peddling. The facts speak for themselves. I have never heard Sam Smith speak about where White Sox payroll money comes from. I think you are fabricating what you want to suit whatever fantastical image you have of how the Bulls are run. It has nothing to do with money. Its personnel. And your arguments are based on the fact that he let an undersized, decent shooting guard go to Detroit, which is so damn ridiculous its sad. That is the root of all of this talk. He has spent money on the Bulls...he doesn't have the personnel worth spending money on...if you want to blame him for anything, blame him for hiring Krause and Paxson, they messed up, not him.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Oh BS, now you are back peddling. I don't care if he owns 1% or 100% he is the managing partner and with that make all the final decisions. Its his call, no one elses and doesn't have to answer. On top of being the managing partner he is a majority owner with a share of 56.8%, so any vote that does happen he can easily resolve with his vote alone. Everyone else is effectively a minority shareholder. Further more, the numbers prove exactly what I was saying, one is a hobby and the other is business.

First Sam knows, then no one can know, which one is it? You can't have it both ways. Unless you are working under the theory Sam Smith is Jordan's clark kent.

My point about how much he owns...which varies according to who you talk to. All of the money is not his, but you want to tell him how to spend the money he makes...which is illegal. He spends his money as he wishes. I am not back peddling. The facts speak for themselves. I have never heard Sam Smith speak about where White Sox payroll money comes from. I think you are fabricating what you want to suit whatever fantastical image you have of how the Bulls are run. It has nothing to do with money. Its personnel. And your arguments are based on the fact that he let an undersized, decent shooting guard go to Detroit, which is so damn ridiculous its sad. That is the root of all of this talk. He has spent money on the Bulls...he doesn't have the personnel worth spending money on...if you want to blame him for anything, blame him for hiring Krause and Paxson, they messed up, not him.

I'm fabricating it. Did you read my links? They came from independent sources. Here it is again.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chi...fact-or-fiction-jerry-reinsdorf-is-cheap.html

http://infoweb.newsbank.com/iw-search/we/InfoWeb?p_action=doc&p_topdoc=1&p_docnum=1&p_sort=YMD_date&p_product=NewsBank&p_text_direct-0=document_id=(%200FF630D1AEA88F2E%20)&p_docid=0FF630D1AEA88F2E&p_theme=aggregated5&p_queryname=0FF630D1AEA88F2E&f_openurl=yes&p_nbid=R4EV52OGMTI1NzU3MjMwNS4zOTcyMjI6MTo3OnJmLTg3MjU&&p_multi=CTRB

You know what I think? I think your full of it. You question my facts that I have backed up, offer nothing of your own and just repeat the same old tired crap. Fact the bulls lead the league in net income, they have for the past 10 years. Fact, JR is the majority owner and managing partner of the team and controls the board. Fact, the white sox spend a much higher and disproportionate portion of their income on player salaries and run at a much lower profit than the bulls. Where are your facts? Random BS you heard on the score? Fluff pieces from Bulls.com? Why don't you read the facts I am citing from real and verifiable sources and stop telling me I am making it up. If you have nothing that you can back up, it doesn't mean everyone is pulling it out of their ass. You can repeat yourself all you want, doesn't make you right. Put up your facts, find me one article? I dare you, find me one that says otherwise.

Further more, while I am it and on my rant. The Bulls are one of the few teams under the LT and in the playoffs last year. The only other ones are the 76ers, hawks, Pistons and trail blazers(possibly denver, they are either right below or right above, I don't have the exact LT number.) The Trail Blazers and Pistons had to be under the LT because they were under the cap this summer and couldn't exceed it, plus portlands three best players are all on rookie deals. The Hawks had to be under the LT too because they didn't have enough salaries to put them over from the previous year. The only other playoff team that is under the LT is the 76ers and that is because they lost Miller. The other eleven teams all paid the tax and the pistons and blazers couldn't because they had massive expiring taxes and wanted the cap space to sign guys ie bg, miller and charlie v.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

 

[houheffna]

I have proven that Reinsdorf is willing to spend on the Bulls...you are full of it because all this b.s. you are spewing is about one thing...Ben Gordon's departure...you criticize him for overspending on Hinrich, Deng, Wallace (like he just knew they wouldn't be worth it) but on the other hand you knock him for not resigning your favorite player. Makes no sense. Jordan should have started and ended his career as a Bull. Reinsdorf paid him until he wouldn't accept anymore. So what is the complaint...lets go back to when he had talent, and the Bulls had a good team...

1993-94---21mil/Salary cap 15.1
1994-95---22mil/16mil
1995-96---26mil/23mil
1996-97---59mil/24mil
1997-98---63.5mil/26.9mil

Five straight contenders, five straight years over the cap and a couple of years paying the LT. Why would he pay the LT? Because he had championship talent on the team. Michael Jordan made more money than the cap itself, but in 97 and 98, the team without Jordan was over the cap. Would he do this now? For Jordan, Kobe, Garnett...yes...for Gordon, Gasol, Byars.....hell no, and I don't blame him.

Now again, my question to you is, what would you have had him spend money on?

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

I have proven that Reinsdorf is willing to spend on the Bulls...you are full of it because all this b.s. you are spewing is about one thing...Ben Gordon's departure...you criticize him for overspending on Hinrich, Deng, Wallace (like he just knew they wouldn't be worth it) but on the other hand you knock him for not resigning your favorite player. Makes no sense. Jordan should have started and ended his career as a Bull. Reinsdorf paid him until he wouldn't accept anymore. So what is the complaint...lets go back to when he had talent, and the Bulls had a good team...

1993-94---21mil/Salary cap 15.1
1994-95---22mil/16mil
1995-96---26mil/23mil
1996-97---59mil/24mil
1997-98---63.5mil/26.9mil

Five straight contenders, five straight years over the cap and a couple of years paying the LT. Why would he pay the LT? Because he had championship talent on the team. Michael Jordan made more money than the cap itself, but in 97 and 98, the team without Jordan was over the cap. Would he do this now? For Jordan, Kobe, Garnett...yes...for Gordon, Gasol, Byars.....hell no, and I don't blame him.

Now again, my question to you is, what would you have had him spend money on?

You are so full of shit. JR NEVER PAID THE LT. NEVER EVER EVER. YOU ARE MAKING STUFF UP. THE LT WASN"T EVEN AROUND WHEN MJ PLAYED FOR THE BULLS.

Luxury Tax - Since the NBA utilizes a soft cap allowing teams to exceed the salary cap to resign their players, the league instituted a luxury tax in 1999 to penalize teams that exceeded the cap by a large amount. Even though the the luxury tax was instituted in 1999, the first year it came into effect was the 2002-03 season. For each dollar a team is over the luxury tax they must pay one dollar to the league which is then dispersed between the teams below the luxury tax threshold. The Luxury Tax again was not triggered in 2004-05 as the

No one ever said anything about the salary cap, almost all the teams in the league are over the cap. There are only 5 teams under the salary cap this year and they all had cap space so they couldn't exceed it. We are currently over the cap now, its not uncommon at all, its a soft cap. BUT JUST KEEP MAKING UP BS AND PASSSING IT ALONG AS FACT AND ITS CRAZY. JR Big spender over the salary cap. Well I guess we should be happy he doesn't run the team like the grizz. Thats pretty much the only way down financially.

Let alone all the p&l stuff I posted about the nba teams and sox. Which you still haven't acknowledged that there is a fundamental difference in p&l between two teams that have very similar gross revenues and hugely disproportionate salary expenditures. OR the FACT THAT THE BULLS MAKE MUCH MORE MONEY THAN THE AVERAGE NBA TEAM AND ITS JR'S EXCLUSIVE DECISION ON PERSONNEL AND SPENDING, WITH NO REPRECUTIONS FROM A BOARD OF DIRECTORS.

 

[houheffna]

LT point taken, thought I took that out because I couldn't find the actual luxury tax rate for those years, I was making an assumption...my mistake...but what would you have him spend money on is the question...and you cannot give a credible answer because you are stuck on one guy leaving. Would love to hear the answer...no one can give it...

 

[houheffna]

The fact is that I believe Jerry Reinsdorf is as commited to putting winning teams out on the field and the court as anyone else in sports. He won’t sign random players to huge contracts just to appease the fans in the offseason a la the Knicks or Mets, but if he sees a viable plan to winning from one of his general managers, he will fully make the necessary financial commitment. At the same time, while Reinsdorf isn’t the most charismatic person with the media, you can count on one hand the number of owners that have won world championships in two different sports while setting both of his franchises up for extended success. So, it’s time that Chicago sports fans to forget about what was conventional wisdom for over a decade and reassess the world we live in now. Mark Cuban might the most fun owner out there, but it’s hard to argue against Jerry Reinsdorf as being the best.
http://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2006/07/07/jerry-reinsdorf-best-owner-in-sports/

Let alone all the p&l stuff I posted about the nba teams and sox. Which you still haven't acknowledged that there is a fundamental difference in p&l between two teams that have very similar gross revenues and hugely disproportionate salary expenditures. OR the FACT THAT THE BULLS MAKE MUCH MORE MONEY THAN THE AVERAGE NBA TEAM AND ITS JR'S EXCLUSIVE DECISION ON PERSONNEL AND SPENDING, WITH NO REPRECUTIONS FROM A BOARD OF DIRECTORS.

Reinsdorf's personal net worth is $280 million dollars....

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/41431812.html

The White Sox are worth $450mil,
The Chicago Bulls are worth $500mil...

Lets say his total income is from his teams (as you all seem to figure), he is worth 30% of the combined value of his teams. Comparing him to George Steinbrenner who is personally worth well over 1Billion dollars makes no sense. Steinbrenner has the net worth of 5 Reinsdorfs. The point is he runs BOTH as a business if they are his basic source of income for him and his family. He has standards on both sides of town. For the Bulls, you don't spend lux tax on Gasol or Gordon, who are not worth it...on the other hand you don't give long term deals to pitchers, or you don't deal with agent Scott Boras which are some of his credos for managing the White Sox. Why wouldn't you give pitchers 8 year deals? Its a hobby...right? Wrong...dead wrong. To the Steinbrenners, the Yankees are serious business, a billion dollar business. It is the same with Reinsdorf for the Sox and Bulls.

Comparing the two sports' luxury tax he has not paid the lux tax for EITHER team...


What you are suggesting is that he spend over 60% of his revenues on players for the Bulls as he has done with the White Sox. That would make it a hobby, like it is with the White Sox...in your opinion.

That is some dumb ass shit...

He offered his players huge deals, for which many of you gripe about daily because 2 of the 3 took the deals. He did it with the Sox too. One pitcher took his offer, the other didn't. He overspent in free agency (Wallace (Bulls), Albert Belle (Sox)). He has pursued top free agents (Alex Rodriguez (White Sox), Kobe Bryant (Bulls)).

And if you knew how the sports worked, maybe you wouldn't be so quick to adopt someone else's questionable opinions.

Here is a rebuttal to the ChicagoNow article...

http://www.mouthpiecesports.com/blo...ke-peavy-to-ben-gordon-is-apples-and-oranges/

This line of thinking is sad and misinformed...upset because the White Sox got a premiere pitcher and legitimate ace and Cy Young winner. Who has accomplished MUCH more in his sport relative to Ben Gordon...who is the reason for this baseless argument.

I believe you are mistaken. First, this is ALL a business to Reinsdorf. His number one business concerning the Sox...Win Championships, same goal as he has with the Bulls. Championships make money. Witnessed by the growth in revenue since the World Series win. He has an idea as to what it takes to win. Signing Gordon would have mired the Bulls in mediocrity in his opinion. In my opinion, you were no closer to a championship. Which is why he made the moves he made. No one is taking into account competition either. The Sox struggle to sell tickets comparable to the Cubs. He doesn't want his team to be an "also ran". The other team in the city. He worked hard to make the White Sox a premiere franchise. And he is succeeding. He put in as much work to make the Bulls a great franchise, he succeeded there too. But people say he "ran Jordan out of town"...if I am not mistaken, wasn't Reinsdorf invited to that Hall of Fame speech Jordan gave? I think he respects Reinsdorf. And since Jordan can do no wrong at all in some of your eyes, you should follow his example.

So you can say I am full of shit, but this is my opinion...you borrow others opinions and make them your own. You call Sam Smith articles fluff but hold on to Doug's columns like its the holy grail. I am sorry but Sam Smith has earned credibility over the years I am sure Doug would agree that Sam Smith is one of the best basketball journalists there is.

Hopefully, you learn the truth over time. Two different sports, two different ways to operate. Equating them on mere numbers without at all acknowledging the huge difference in the economic culture in both sports is just plain negligent. And I won't buy into it.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

LT point taken, thought I took that out because I couldn't find the actual luxury tax rate for those years, I was making an assumption...my mistake...but what would you have him spend money on is the question...and you cannot give a credible answer because you are stuck on one guy leaving. Would love to hear the answer...no one can give it...

Forget BG for a min. He doesn't exist atm. What I want him to do is what the rest of the playoff teams do. Of the 18 playoff teams, 13 of them are above the LT. The only teams that really aren't are teams like the Pistons, trail blazers and 76ers were doing a semi rebuild with cap space. Atlanta still has their second best player under a rookie deal as does portland with there top 3 guys. I would be happy if we could rejoin every other playoff team and spend the LT to put out a better product. There were many ways to do it, if we got pau gasol for peanuts or if we resigned BG and traded kirk and tyrus for boozer. I think both of those teams would have improved us greatly. What happens when we get a 2010 fa and still get bounced in the first or second round, do we continue coarse refuse to improve or do we spend the LT because just adding a JJ or Wade or Stat isn't going to get us out of the second round with Boston, Orlando and Bron still in the east.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

Believe what you want...
I think you know your argument is futile. These are grown ass men. A little discomfort in organizations is normal. Jordan aint Mother Teresa either. He could be a tyrant when he wanted to. All of them lied to the media. That is part of their jobs. Jordan can lie to kids too, matter of fact if your story is correct, he DID lie to the kids...or did I sleep through Phil's tenure as coach of the Washington Wizards?
But I would love to see YOUR source of information...that could be more credible than Sam Smith. Maybe K.C. Johnson said something?

So to you this is a tall tale and you know the truth...

To me, this is pretty accurate and your version goes in the "myth" bin along with the stories about the Easter Bunny and the Loch Ness Monster...

We once again agree to disagree.

My version isn't a myth. There was a press conference (I watched it) when Jerry Reinsdorf made the offer about the 1-YEAR DEAL WITH TIM FLOYD AS THE UNDERSTUDY. That's not a myth, sorry hou. didn't dream it, I saw it on TV.

That's wasn't a real contract offer. It was an attempt by JT to save face with media and fans. It's that simple.

The Jerrys are to blame for this break up, not Jordan. It was years and years of little jabs whether it was contracts, saying organizations win championships, comments by management, the Toni Kukoc situation, not making Phil the highest paid coach because he was just the coach and not the coach/GM like Pat Riley. Little petty things like that throughout the years alienated, and created friction between the players and managenment.

That's the Jerrys fault.

you never answered my question. Name me one other ownership (group or person) in professional sports that broke up a title team and chased away the greatest player in their sport? Name one?

Only the Jerry were dumb enough to pull it off.

And Sam Smith decides to write a column 6 years after the fact to try and defend the Jerry to take a different view on things. Where was Sam when this was going on reporting this stuff? Isn't that what journalist do? If he knew all of this then why wasn't it reported in 1999, not Dec of 2004?

Bottom line is after 1998 Phil Jackson wasn't offered a real contract. He was given a silly 1-year offer with Tim Floyd being an assistant. JR knew Phil wouldn't take it. That was done just so JR can say "hey I made the offer."

I'll find the article and post it here. I have access to old articles. I'll search for it when I get to work tonight.

You also didn't answer my question about Horace Grant. Explain to me how the third best player on a 3-time title team doesn't get locked up to a long term deal. It ends up being played out in the media. Whit Horace acting like a child too. BUT, he should of got an extension after 1992 and definitely 1993. But no, the Jerry gotta squeeze every last dime and try to get that money first. Horace leaves and the team was bad in 1994/1995. The Jerry should be kissing MJ's ass for coming back in 1995.

And no one says Michael Jordan is mother teresa, but he's not the blame for breaking up the dynasty. Michael Jordan doesn't make contract offers. He didn't sign the checks. Only the owner can do that.

Jordan had one request, to play for Phil Jackson. The Jerrys said no, they wanted Floyd. Jordan then retired. That's was basically it. Jordan retired rather than losing that public battle to the Jerrys.

 

[houheffna]

Well that is the difference between me and you, you want to do what 13 other playoff teams do...I want to do what the championship teams do. Those teams have a legit player to build around. We didn't have that. So we would have to acquire him. That is why they went after the players they went after and though they failed...they tried. Why go after Kobe or Garnett in trades and free agency (Kobe twice) if they felt that the Bulls were a cash cow and no championship was needed for profits? What is the purpose? I think the Bulls front office is more along the lines of my thinking then yours...get a player who makes this team a championship contender. Gasol and Boozer don't do that. Lebron and Wade can though. They need to pursue those type of players...franchise players. So why spend to get "better" when better is not even close to beating the Cavs, Celtics or Magic? Better only puts you in playoff hell, where Atlanta has been the last few years...I don't want to go there.

 

[houheffna]

you never answered my question. Name me one other ownership (group or person) in professional sports that broke up a title team and chased away the greatest player in their sport? Name one?

I cannot answer that question, because I don't recall it happening the first time. the only evidence presented seems to show you fabricating that scenario.

And if Reinsdorf, "chased Jordan away" which the article I presented clearly says didn't happen, why isn't Jordan pissed at Reinsdorf? What was Reinsdorf doing at that Hall of Fame speech? Jordan respects Reinsdorf, why? Reisnsdorf tried to do what he could to keep that over the hill group in place for a couple of more years. He offered Jordan a lot of money and threw in some extras. Reinsdorf never signed off on Floyd. All of that was explained extensively. Jordan hasn't forgiven Krause, but he invited Reinsdorf. People carelessly lump the "Jerrys" together as if they devised some diabolical plan to destroy the Bulls. A lot of people who don't like Krause respect Reinsdorf. Including Jordan, Doug Collins and Phil Jackson.

 

[Kush77]

houheffna wrote:

you never answered my question. Name me one other ownership (group or person) in professional sports that broke up a title team and chased away the greatest player in their sport? Name one?

I cannot answer that question, because I don't recall it happening the first time. the only evidence presented seems to show you fabricating that scenario.

And if Reinsdorf, "chased Jordan away" which the article I presented clearly says didn't happen, why isn't Jordan pissed at Reinsdorf? What was Reinsdorf doing at that Hall of Fame speech? Jordan respects Reinsdorf, why? Reisnsdorf tried to do what he could to keep that over the hill group in place for a couple of more years. He offered Jordan a lot of money and threw in some extras. Reinsdorf never signed off on Floyd. All of that was explained extensively. Jordan hasn't forgiven Krause, but he invited Reinsdorf. People carelessly lump the "Jerrys" together as if they devised some diabolical plan to destroy the Bulls. A lot of people who don't like Krause respect Reinsdorf. Including Jordan, Doug Collins and Phil Jackson.

I agree he doesn't hate Jerry Reinsdorf. Hell, Jerry let him play fantasy baseball for a a year. And he did give MJ two big contracts. But they screwed up the Phil Jackson situation.

My point is at the end of the day the Jerrys are to blame because mishandled the entire situation. Usually when ownership has a dynasty, and the marquee attraction in the sport, they don't manage to alienate it (or them). I can't think of any other franchise that did that.

If MJ hated Krause so much then Krause should have been gone. That would have been a start. Just like when Magic wanted Westhead gone, he was gone. And Magic was only a 2nd or 3rd year player and that happened.

You can say that Reinsdorf isn't to blame because it was Jerry Krause that caused a lot of the friction, but Jerry sat back and allowed his GM to make the situation worse. Jerry Reinsdorf is the owner that could have squashed it all. But he didn't. So at the end of the day he is to blame. He let his little GM with the big ego run wild.

I'm going to post some interesting articles in another thread. It's some good reading.

I was wrong, there wasn't a 1-year deal. There was a press conference inviting Phil to come back but no terms were discussed. I guess the 1 year things just stuck with me.

But I doubt they were bringing Tim Floyd in to be the "director of basketball operations", a position created for Floyd, no one previously held that title. And they gave him a five-year deal for an estimated $14.2. They knew Phil wasn't going to accept. It was a political move basically.

Something tells me that they weren't willing to pay Phil top dollar for more than 1-year, while paying Floyd that type of money to sit and watch. JR is the ultimate business man remember. Why would he pay Floyd 14 million when the position wasn't necessary. Because he knew Phil wouldn't accept the offer. the relationship between the Bulls an Phil was beyond repair.

but i'll post these articles in another thread.