Dream Team vs. Modern Teams

CODE_BLUE56

Ded
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Apr 18, 2010
Posts:
19,725
Liked Posts:
4,699
Location:
Texas
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=167&f=1386&t=9066429

based on this thread(which had some really stupid posts and some really interesting posts)

do y'all think players are more athletic now and would match up better?

Would the 92 dream team beat the 08 team and by how much(i think 10-15 imo)...and what about the 2012 team?
 

FirstTimer

v. 2.0: Fully Modded
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
May 4, 2010
Posts:
27,077
Liked Posts:
15,145
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=167&f=1386&t=9066429

based on this thread(which had some really stupid posts and some really interesting posts)

do y'all think players are more athletic now and would match up better?

Would the 92 dream team beat the 08 team and by how much(i think 10-15 imo)...and what about the 2012 team?

You'll have to copy and paste the article/info.

Not all of us are stupid enough to pay for scouts premium service.
 

CODE_BLUE56

Ded
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Apr 18, 2010
Posts:
19,725
Liked Posts:
4,699
Location:
Texas
that's on the free board:obama:

and it's not an article it's a thread..do you want me to copy and paste certain important tidbits?
 

FirstTimer

v. 2.0: Fully Modded
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
May 4, 2010
Posts:
27,077
Liked Posts:
15,145
that's on the free board:obama:

and it's not an article it's a thread..do you want me to copy and paste certain important tidbits?

Yes. Scout's boards suck.


You actually signed up there?

LOL at this:

I click the link

"Membership required".

Click the "sign up now" link

Page not found

:rofl:

God damn Scout sucks.
 

CODE_BLUE56

Ded
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Apr 18, 2010
Posts:
19,725
Liked Posts:
4,699
Location:
Texas
Yes. Scout's boards suck.


You actually signed up there?

LOL at this:

I click the link

"Membership required".

Click the "sign up now" link

Page not found

:rofl:

God damn Scout sucks.

only reason i ever go on scout anymore is to lurk and find duke info...their mods are ridiculously uptight and there's really no point to posting over there..i thought the topic was pretty interesting though

anywho i'll paste some tidbits since scout sucks and you're too lazy to go on a different browser or refresh the page and join free to read
 

FirstTimer

v. 2.0: Fully Modded
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
May 4, 2010
Posts:
27,077
Liked Posts:
15,145
only reason i ever go on scout anymore is to lurk and find duke info...their mods are ridiculously uptight and there's really no point to posting over there..i thought the topic was pretty interesting though

anywho i'll paste some tidbits since scout sucks and you're too lazy to go on a different browser or refresh the page and join free to read

***** please.

I run marathons. It's not sloth. It's just not wanting to deal with that shit house website.
 

CODE_BLUE56

Ded
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Apr 18, 2010
Posts:
19,725
Liked Posts:
4,699
Location:
Texas
OP:"I really think the Dream Team is a little overrated..Dont get me wrong they had talent...but today's players are better .I think the 12 team would win fairly easy...10+ points..thoughts?"

"John Stockton
M Jordan
Pippen
Barkley
P. Ewing

I will take that 5 and you can take the top 5 in the NBA right now and the Dream Team still wins by 15.

CP3
Kobe
Lebron
Durant
D Howard"

"The international competition of the last 8-10 years is FAR superior to what the Dream Team faced. That was the first collection of NBA players to compete in the Olympics. The development of the game in other countries was lagging far behind that of American basketball. As we see with the influx of international players in the NBA today, the landscape of international basketball is very different. The coaching and development of talent is much better. I think the Dream Team does get overrated and overhyped a little bit mainly because they were the first collection of NBA players to compete at the Olympics so of course they would just blow people away. We are much more accustomed today to seeing NBA players compete internationally and are much more accustomed to seeing the international players compete at a high level."

"Weren't there reports that Hurley took Stockton to the toolshed when the Junior team beat the Senior team?

So much so that Jordan switched onto Hurley?"


"That game was orchestrated by Daly to make a point. Still, Hurley and Hill were pretty darn good. cool"

"Croatia had 5 NBA players on that 1992 Olympic team. Including Drazen Petrovic who, before he was killed, averaged more points per game in the NBA than anyone on this team you named from Spain.

And the 2008 US team that had Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Carmelo, Paul and Howard beat that Spain team by 11 points. How do you think they would've done if you substitute Jose Calderon, Ricky Rubio and Rudy Fernandez with Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Michael Jordan?"

"Personally I think the 92 team would be shocked at the athleticism of the 08 team. Obviously Magic, Bird, MJ, all were integral at expanding the popularity - both domestically and internationally - for the sport, but the reality of that is that as more and more people are playing, the competition becomes stiffer and stiffer, and the demands put on players to improve become harsher. Players now are bigger, faster, stronger and still tremendously skilled. And frankly, the longer a game is played you would expect teams to adapt to the best strategies as talent levels improve. There's a reason why teams play slower and scores are lower now than in the 1980s and it sure isn't that they lack talent or ability. We all know that when there is a greater disparity in talent, it is easier to play fast, but when there is parity, the half-court becomes the gladiatorial arena.

In addition, the game is much more physical now, which is why I usually become skeptical at all the claims about the softness of these players. Why, because Lebron driving into a lane and bumped by 3 guys, finishing, and then gesturing to the ref is "soft"? What did Jordan do basically every play against the Pistons when they roughed him up? He complained to the refs. It's been going on for as long as there's been a game, and is no indication of softness. I mean does anyone really think that Bird would win 3 MVPs or that Barkley could be a 6'4" power forward in today's NBA? There were no physical freaks on that 92 team comparable to James (Magic's offense with some of Michael's scoring, Scottie's defense in Karl Malone's body with a point guard's speed) or Durant (a 7 footer with a 7'6" wingspan who can shoot like Ray Allen)? Where I will agree that the 92 team has a big advantage would be in the center position. Howard can stand toe to toe with any historical center as a defender outside of maybe Shaq circa 2000, but his offensive game is much more limited than Ewing or Robinson, and having two capable 7 footers provides depth where the 08 team only really has Howard as a center. But otherwise frankly I think the 08 team has a depth of athleticism and talent that the 92 team didn't. The 92 team was rich on legacy and myth, though, and played a soft field that let them reinforce those myths."

"
John Stockton wasn't the starter at PG. He played in 4 out of the 8 games and didn't start any of them. It should have been Magic who averaged 8 points, 5.5 assists, and 2.3 rebounds. And sure, he would have had trouble staying in front of CP3, but CP3 would be like a gnat out there trying to stop Magic.

Also, whenever someone does one of these matchups by position evaluations things can change based on how you set the matchups. Say you decided to match Jordan up with Kobe and Pippen up with D. Wade... Doesn't the Dream Team take both of those? Jordan vs. anyone is going to be Jordan. Pippen was coming off a year where he flirted with a triple double average - 21 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 7 apg. DWade meanwhile has averaged 22/4.8/4.6 this season. Pippen was also an All-Defensive 1st team player in 1992 - something he would do again every year for the next 7 and something that DWade has yet to accomplish.

Also, Dwight Howard is not going to be on this year's Olympic squad due to injury. But even if he was I think you would be vastly underrating Ewing on D. True, he was only a second team NBA All-D team while Howard was a 1st team selection last year. But in 1992 Ewing couldn't beat out David Robinson... the other center on the Dream Team. In fact, if you measure the stats (Defensive Rating, Defensive Win Share, and Blocked Shots Per Game, and Blocked Shot %) you get - Robinson at 94/6.9/4.5/7.4% - Ewing at 101/5.6/3.0/5% - Howard at 96/4.4/2.1/4.4%

You could make a legitimate case here that Howard was the worst defender of those three."

that's all i'm posting...

if you want more make a fucking scout account

:shifty:
 

CODE_BLUE56

Ded
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Apr 18, 2010
Posts:
19,725
Liked Posts:
4,699
Location:
Texas
***** please.

I run marathons. It's not sloth. It's just not wanting to deal with that shit house website.

there's a difference...but i was kidding anyway

i already posted the tidbits if you want to read it
 

FirstTimer

v. 2.0: Fully Modded
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
May 4, 2010
Posts:
27,077
Liked Posts:
15,145
I read about 3 posts and quit.

Stupid posters are stupid.
 

CODE_BLUE56

Ded
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Apr 18, 2010
Posts:
19,725
Liked Posts:
4,699
Location:
Texas
I read about 3 posts and quit.

Stupid posters are stupid.

ya this is probably the only interesting post in the thread:

"Personally I think the 92 team would be shocked at the athleticism of the 08 team. Obviously Magic, Bird, MJ, all were integral at expanding the popularity - both domestically and internationally - for the sport, but the reality of that is that as more and more people are playing, the competition becomes stiffer and stiffer, and the demands put on players to improve become harsher. Players now are bigger, faster, stronger and still tremendously skilled. And frankly, the longer a game is played you would expect teams to adapt to the best strategies as talent levels improve. There's a reason why teams play slower and scores are lower now than in the 1980s and it sure isn't that they lack talent or ability. We all know that when there is a greater disparity in talent, it is easier to play fast, but when there is parity, the half-court becomes the gladiatorial arena.

In addition, the game is much more physical now, which is why I usually become skeptical at all the claims about the softness of these players. Why, because Lebron driving into a lane and bumped by 3 guys, finishing, and then gesturing to the ref is "soft"? What did Jordan do basically every play against the Pistons when they roughed him up? He complained to the refs. It's been going on for as long as there's been a game, and is no indication of softness. I mean does anyone really think that Bird would win 3 MVPs or that Barkley could be a 6'4" power forward in today's NBA? There were no physical freaks on that 92 team comparable to James (Magic's offense with some of Michael's scoring, Scottie's defense in Karl Malone's body with a point guard's speed) or Durant (a 7 footer with a 7'6" wingspan who can shoot like Ray Allen)? Where I will agree that the 92 team has a big advantage would be in the center position. Howard can stand toe to toe with any historical center as a defender outside of maybe Shaq circa 2000, but his offensive game is much more limited than Ewing or Robinson, and having two capable 7 footers provides depth where the 08 team only really has Howard as a center. But otherwise frankly I think the 08 team has a depth of athleticism and talent that the 92 team didn't. The 92 team was rich on legacy and myth, though, and played a soft field that let them reinforce those myths."

these are just points to start off with though

make your own damn argument
 

BNB

Moderator
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
Jun 9, 2011
Posts:
15,608
Liked Posts:
8,399
Location:
Chicago
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  2. Oakland Raiders
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
Dream team would beat the '12 team.

The dream team had so much size compared to this team especially because Howard isn't even gonna play this summer because of his back issue.

They even have Magic at PG.. who is clearly bigger than CP or D.Will.
 

BNB

Moderator
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
Jun 9, 2011
Posts:
15,608
Liked Posts:
8,399
Location:
Chicago
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  2. Oakland Raiders
  1. Chicago Blackhawks
"In addition, the game is much more physical now, which is why I usually become skeptical at all the claims about the softness of these players"

Wtf?!?!

the game now is NOT more physical. Definitely not MUCH more physical.
 

CODE_BLUE56

Ded
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Apr 18, 2010
Posts:
19,725
Liked Posts:
4,699
Location:
Texas
i disagree with that too...especially with the hand check rule in the 90s and teams like the knicks and pistons

maybe in the 70s and early 80s you have a little more of an argument by 92 was the height of those physical teams
 

FirstTimer

v. 2.0: Fully Modded
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '19
Joined:
May 4, 2010
Posts:
27,077
Liked Posts:
15,145
the only thing that is dumb about this is that people are citing Bird and Magic and Bird was a shell because of his back issue and Magic hadn't even played in the NBA the previous season
 

CODE_BLUE56

Ded
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Apr 18, 2010
Posts:
19,725
Liked Posts:
4,699
Location:
Texas
the only thing that is dumb about this is that people are citing Bird and Magic and Bird was a shell because of his back issue and Magic hadn't even played in the NBA the previous season

true
Bird still averaged close to 20 10 and 7 even in his last season..he was on his last legs but could still play with the best...wasn't the same player as he was in the 80s but he could still play

you're right about magic,though..
 

Diddy1122

I ain't your pal dickface
Joined:
Mar 30, 2009
Posts:
4,459
Liked Posts:
1,155
Location:
Chicago
the only thing that is dumb about this is that people are citing Bird and Magic and Bird was a shell because of his back issue and Magic hadn't even played in the NBA the previous season

That's true. The best player on that team was Barkley imho. He was absolutely destroying everyone he faced.

I get why people are citing those 2 though. They are arguably the 2 best players all-time at their respective positions. The Dream Team would still destroy any of the modern Olympic teams. Not only are we talking about a collection of the greatest players of all time, but also some of the smartest players of all time. I'd be hard pressed to put more than maybe 2 players from the '08 or '12 team in either of those categories.
 

CODE_BLUE56

Ded
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Apr 18, 2010
Posts:
19,725
Liked Posts:
4,699
Location:
Texas
the depth and defense was ridiculous as well

ewing,robinson,pippen,payton(was he on there?),jordan,stockton(all time leader in steals),olajuwon,etc.

they have a good size advantage and there is so much depth there it's insane...and ya the guys were helped a little by the hand check...but alot of those guys were incredible defenders

while you had bird and magic at the end of their careers, you had guys like robinson,barkley,jordan,pippen,malone,ewing, robinson, and others in their prime
 

Diddy1122

I ain't your pal dickface
Joined:
Mar 30, 2009
Posts:
4,459
Liked Posts:
1,155
Location:
Chicago
"In addition, the game is much more physical now, which is why I usually become skeptical at all the claims about the softness of these players"

Wtf?!?!

the game now is NOT more physical. Definitely not MUCH more physical.

I stopped reading the posts after I read that. It's OBVIOUS whomever wrote that did not grow up in the 80's or even the 90's.

The league is so pussified now it makes me want to puke at times.
 

CODE_BLUE56

Ded
Donator
CCS Hall of Fame '20
Joined:
Apr 18, 2010
Posts:
19,725
Liked Posts:
4,699
Location:
Texas
"Again with the "this generation is soft" and "Jordan took beatings," "and "it was so much more physical and tough back then," nonsense. It's just not true.

It's harder to score the ball today than it was in Jordan's heyday. Jordan's greatest statistical years, i.e., in the mid to late '80s and very early '90s, saw an NBA where there were more shots taken, a greater % of shots made, a faster pace (obviously), and very importantly, NO zone defenses. Teams TODAY play much more physically, are more athletic, and are bigger; teams today play better defense in all facets of the defensive game

Jordan racked up incredible numbers in a league where the pace was much faster, it was much easier to score, get rebounds, and dish out assists. And, yes, this includes the games against the Pistons and Knicks.Obviously, he would do well in any era, but the numbers probably wouldn't look the same. In fact, he only shot 50% in his first two title campaigns (49.9% during the Bulls's second title run) and went steadily downward from there. Of course, he was a different type of player as he aged, a player that didn't drive the ball as much as he once did. In addition to that, defenses were getting more and more physical and better, much better than the vaunted Pistons's defense. If you adjust Grant Hill's numbers from the mid-'90s for pace or Lebron James's numbers from the past 4 or so years to the pace when Jordan had his greatest statistical years, those players numbers would look gaudy. In the 2005-2006 season, James averaged 31, 7, and 7 in a season with a league wide pace of 90.5, with the Cavs playing around the league average. Adjust his numbers to the mid-'80s or late-'80s pace and his numbers would seem astronomical.

Take a look at basket ball reference's site (http://www.basketball-referenc...gues/stats.html )

--2011-2012 ranked 37th out of all seasons in league FG% (44.8%, 96.3 ppg, 81 shots per game).
--2010-2011 ranked 23rd out of all seasons in league FG% (45.9%, 99.6 ppg, 81 shots per game).
--2009-2010 ranked 21st out of all seasons in league FG% (46.1%, 100.1 ppg, 82 shots per game).
--2008-2009 ranked 24th out of all seasons in league FG% (45.9%, 100 ppg, 81 shots per game).

--1983-1984 ranked 1st out of all seasons in league FG% (49.2%, 110 ppg, 88 shots per game).
--1984-1985 ranked 2nd out of all seasons in league FG% (49.1%, 110.8 ppg, 89 shots per game).
--1981-1982 ranked 3rd out of all seasons in league FG% (49.1%, 108.6 ppg, 88 shots per game).
--1985-1986 ranked 4th out of all seasons in league FG% (48.7%, 110.2 ppg, 89 shots per game).
--1987-1988 ranked 9th out of all seasons in league FG% (48%, 108.2 ppg, 88 shots per game).
--1986-1987 ranked 10th out of all seasons in league FG% (48%, 110 ppg, 89 shots per game).
--1988-1989 ranked 11th out of all seasons in league FG% (47.7%, 109.2 ppg, 89 shots per game).
--1989-1990 ranked 12th out of all seasons in league FG% (47.6%, 107 ppg, 87 shots per game).
--1990-1991 ranked 13th out of all seasons in league FG% (47.4%, 106.3 ppg, 87 shots per game).
--1992-1993 ranked 14th out of all seasons in league FG% (47.3%, 105 ppg, 86 shots per game).
--1991-1992 ranked 15th out of all seasons in league FG% (47.2%, 105 ppg, 87 shots per game).


No matter which way you slice it or dice it, it was MUCH easier to score in the mid '80s -- late '80s and the early '90s. It is much more difficult to score now. It was much more difficult to score in the early to mid 2000s which saw some really low scoring games.

Now, one could say. "Well, those players back then had better skills or they ran more fast breaks, or XYZ and that's why they scored more," and of course you could subjectively argue that (the running more part is objectively true), but the question would then be, "What happened to those skills?" What happened to those mid-range skills that make scoring more difficult now? Why don't teams run as often now? Why don't teams pass as well as they used to? Is there less skill now or is there something else that's going on in the NBA? What's going on is that the defenses are bigger, stronger, faster, physical, and athletic which has changed the free-flow of the game from 25 years ago.

I don't think there is less overall skill in the NBA today than there was 25 years ago. Different things are valued now because the game has changed. 12 out of the top 15 seasons for league three-point fg% have occurred since the 2000 season. The other three occurred during the mid '90s. Another thing one hears tossed around is how nobody can make free-throws anymore. The overall league FT% has remained remarkably consistent. The highest league FT% was 77.1% in the 2008-2009 season, while the 30th highest average (1975-1976) was 75.1%. There would almost certainly be a statistical difference if a t-test were run comparing the the 1975-1976 season with the 2008-2009 season, but sill, a 2% spread between the best FT% season and the 30th best FT% season seems pretty consistent. Teams take SIGNIFICANTLY more three-pointers now than they did 20 years ago. 8 out of the top 10 total three-point attempts seasons came between 2005-2012. There was a rise in three-point attempts after the zone was once again allowed in 2001. Why are the teams taking more outside shots? It's because the defenses of today are much stronger, more physical, and more athletic than those of the late '80s or early '90s and these teams are allowed to play a zone. Teams have to adjust. The free-flowing game and the tools that allowed it aren't as effective in a league with bigger, stronger, faster athletes playing much more physically.

The obliteration of this this "free-flow" via physicality is why shooting % has fallen and ppg has fallen since the mid '80s and early '90s, not because there is less skill. There's more of an emphasis on offensive rebounding than leaking out to start a break. Skills-wise, outside shooting is as good as it has ever been and FT %s are stable. We have seen the development of the step-back jumper, a new shot really that tries to avoid the contact and punishment delivered by defenses. Post moves aren't as good as they used to be, but there is less opportunity in games to use post moves in today's NBA where zone defenses can swarm opponents.

Most importantly, there is less space in today's game than there was in the past. Setting aside the numbers, watch some games from the mid to late-'80s or early '90s. Back then, there's more of a "free-flow" to the game where's there's space to operate on the floor, where post players can back down defenders for eight seconds, where players can take three or four dribbles consistently without meeting defenders. Look at all the available space on the floor. Players aren't as big, not as strong, not as "built." Because zone defenses were not allowed, there was more room for players to drive the ball, get inside for easier shots and they tended to do so without as much physical contact. Shooting %s were higher, and the games were more fast-paced with points scored much more easily than they are today. Unless a player had the ball, there were no double teams, no "guarding of spaces." This quickened the pace, engendered easier shots, and more points were scored. Look at what the Celtics did to James or Bryant in 2008 or what the Mavs did against James last year. Every time Kobe or James got the ball, 5 heads turned his way and defenders sagged off their men and areas were guarded making it very difficult for either one to drive the ball effectively. Free space and lanes were taken away.


So, even though one hears a lot about how "tough defenses were back then" and about how a player could hand check and nobody today could deal with it, the numbers (and the eye test) tell a different story, a story that's not tinged with the bias of nostalgia. It is highly unlikely that players are just that much less skilled and play the game in such an inferior way that has caused all those shooting %s go down. Something has caused. It was MUCH EASIER to score in Jordan's heyday NBA than it is today or was 10 years ago or in the late '90s due to how big and strong and fast and athletic and physical today's players are."

lefty?
 

Crystallas

Three if by air
Staff member
Donator
Joined:
Jun 25, 2010
Posts:
20,014
Liked Posts:
9,558
Location:
Next to the beef gristle mill
My favorite teams
  1. Chicago Bulls
Yep. Bird was along for the ride. It was spasm after spasm for that entire summer.

Robinson was my favorite non-Bull. He was far from the best, but his style and the euro style of that time were matched well. All David had to do was come in for a bit, and do everything their bigs did, but better and faster. Then all of the USA's high volume scorers just ran circles around the rest of them, while they sat on their hands, contemplating quitting life.
 

Top