fire vdn

[flipcyde23]

NEW THREE-PEAT FOR THE BULLS....FIRING A COACH ON CHRISTMAS EVE.

Vinny Del Chachi MUST GO!!!!

 

[Diddy1122]

TheStig wrote:

Diddy1122 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

I think you are blaming the coach for the limitations on the roster. Rarely do you have an nba coach who can make his team produce greater than the sum of the parts. The bulls are currently producing at what the sum of the parts can. Their simply not that good and diluting with injured or lesser quality players isn't going to make us better. In fact, the problem you have with Vinny is he is playing too much for today.

I challenge you to find us a suitable replacement today that can make this team significantly better. Personally, I don't mind what VDN is doing, he is inflating guys stats and playing for today. Both of which are best for this limited group. I want Rose and Noah to get all the run they can handle and build up Kirk, Deng and Salmons so their values go up.

BTW after looking at the stats, Pargo has played 22 of 26 games and JJ has played in 18 of 26 games so they have both played fairly regularly.

What the hell? Playing for today? By letting his team blow a 35pt lead to a mediocre team? Don't mind what VDN is doing? Inflating stats, how the hell is that a good thing? :huh: Inflating the players stats, which isn't happening btw, does absolutely nothing. NOTHING. No one's trade value is going up. And if that's your reason for keeping Vinny, that's just ridiculously stupid.

WERE 4-12 IN THE LAST 16 GAMES!!! Were getting blown out more often than not. Just when you think it can't get any worse, it does. I don't give a shit there's no suitable replacement if you fire Vinny. You fire the guy because he is failing at his job. The front office doesn't want to pull the trigger because they think that's waving the white flag. Well I got news for everyone, the white flag was out in full force last night. This season is not going to turnaround with Vinny still at the helm, if it turns around at all.

 

[TheStig]

Diddy1122 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

Diddy1122 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

I think you are blaming the coach for the limitations on the roster. Rarely do you have an nba coach who can make his team produce greater than the sum of the parts. The bulls are currently producing at what the sum of the parts can. Their simply not that good and diluting with injured or lesser quality players isn't going to make us better. In fact, the problem you have with Vinny is he is playing too much for today.

I challenge you to find us a suitable replacement today that can make this team significantly better. Personally, I don't mind what VDN is doing, he is inflating guys stats and playing for today. Both of which are best for this limited group. I want Rose and Noah to get all the run they can handle and build up Kirk, Deng and Salmons so their values go up.

BTW after looking at the stats, Pargo has played 22 of 26 games and JJ has played in 18 of 26 games so they have both played fairly regularly.

What the hell? Playing for today? By letting his team blow a 35pt lead to a mediocre team? Don't mind what VDN is doing? Inflating stats, how the hell is that a good thing? :huh: Inflating the players stats, which isn't happening btw, does absolutely nothing. NOTHING. No one's trade value is going up. And if that's your reason for keeping Vinny, that's just ridiculously stupid.

WERE 4-12 IN THE LAST 16 GAMES!!! Were getting blown out more often than not. Just when you think it can't get any worse, it does. I don't give a shit there's no suitable replacement if you fire Vinny. You fire the guy because he is failing at his job. The front office doesn't want to pull the trigger because they think that's waving the white flag. Well I got news for everyone, the white flag was out in full force last night. This season is not going to turnaround with Vinny still at the helm, if it turns around at all.

He is playing for today by going with the short rotation. Do you think we would have a better or worse record getting JJ and Pargo 20+mpg? I'm betting it would be worse and at best it would be equal. He is playing his best players and playing for today to try to save his job. Common, your blowing it out of proportion, he didn't let them lose the lead, he played his best players the whole time. Bringing in Pargo or JJ wouldn't have won us the game. I also disagree, everyone but Salmon's trade value has gone up this year, that is inflating their value. Deng was one of the worst contracts of the year, Kirk became decent after the trade deadline and Noah's value has blown up. Miller and JJ's contracts are expiring. Except for Rose and Salmons everyones value isn't going to get much better. I would hope we look for trades for them.

I think the front office has failed. Vinny hasn't doing well either but he can only get so much from his terrible talent. Lets face it, this team is immensly flawed and injured so far this year. You could insert Phil Jackson or Pat Rielly and they couldn't do much better with no post option and very limited wing scoring coupled with serious injuries. I don't think the coach is very important to a teams success unless you get a top 5 coach. The other 25 coaches in the league, their performance is dictated by their roster more than anything else and VDN has a crap roster. I don't know what your expectations were of this team this year but I always thought they'd win 35-40 games and they will likely do so or at least get to 33 wins. My bottom line is that JR has really failed us and VDN is being setup as a scapegoat. I am not saying he doesn't have his flaws but this isn't his fault.

 

[Shakes]

I think one of the problems is the Bulls have never had a lot of talent on paper ... you look at the 47 and 49 win teams even and on paper they don't look so hot. To the extent that the teams have been any good it was based on Skiles ability to get them to work really hard defensively.

Skiles is one of, if not the best, defensive coach in the league, and he couldn't get them to keep up the effort long term, once things started to fall apart they went south quickly. Who are we going to get who can do better? Go with an offensive coach? With this group? What scheme can make a team look good when you don't have either interior offense or three point shooting? If there's a coach who can make that work he's a God among men.

 

[Diddy1122]

TheStig wrote:

He is playing for today by going with the short rotation. Do you think we would have a better or worse record getting JJ and Pargo 20+mpg? I'm betting it would be worse and at best it would be equal. He is playing his best players and playing for today to try to save his job. Common, your blowing it out of proportion, he didn't let them lose the lead, he played his best players the whole time. Bringing in Pargo or JJ wouldn't have won us the game. I also disagree, everyone but Salmon's trade value has gone up this year, that is inflating their value. Deng was one of the worst contracts of the year, Kirk became decent after the trade deadline and Noah's value has blown up. Miller and JJ's contracts are expiring. Except for Rose and Salmons everyones value isn't going to get much better. I would hope we look for trades for them.

I think the front office has failed. Vinny hasn't doing well either but he can only get so much from his terrible talent. Lets face it, this team is immensly flawed and injured so far this year. You could insert Phil Jackson or Pat Rielly and they couldn't do much better with no post option and very limited wing scoring coupled with serious injuries. I don't think the coach is very important to a teams success unless you get a top 5 coach. The other 25 coaches in the league, their performance is dictated by their roster more than anything else and VDN has a crap roster. I don't know what your expectations were of this team this year but I always thought they'd win 35-40 games and they will likely do so or at least get to 33 wins. My bottom line is that JR has really failed us and VDN is being setup as a scapegoat. I am not saying he doesn't have his flaws but this isn't his fault.

I never said play JJ or Pargo 20+ mins, that's Special person. But play them when you're up by 35 w/ another game the following night. That's what a NORMAL coach does. And normal coaches don't let their players, who obviously have no fight, just go through the motions out there, which is what the Bulls did last night. A good coach would sit his stars & light a fire under their collective asses. Vinny has done none of this since he's been here. His rotations are horrible. HOR-RI-BULL.

Yes management is at fault here because they hire this joker in the first place. It still doesn't erase the fact that Vinny is not a good coach & is doing more harm than good right now. Scapegoat or not, he's not an NBA coach. Period. How many blowouts must we endure? How many disgusting losses to teams like the Raptors & Nets must we endure before Vinny is finally shown the door?

 

[Frank Breakfast Styleham]

If they go through with firing Vinny word is Pete Myers is going to replace him.

Really? Pete Myers is the answer? Pete's just gonna step in and everythings gonna be alright?

 

[pinkizdead]

no firing gar foreman is the answer. especially if he drafted tyrus.

 

[Shakes]

houheffna wrote:

You don't play a "standard 7 man rotation" during the season....you do that in the playoffs...playing so few players during the season is practically suicidal...

You do when everyone past those 7 are garbage (well, more so than some of those 7).

 

[Hendu0520]

Really Kirk Trainwreck was that much better than Jenaro Pargo against the Kings? I would have atleast like to see Pargo for a bit. No way any other coach loses that game. VDN should have benched the entire starters with exeption to Gibson for a few minutes when the Kings cut it to 20. Once the Kings cut it to 15 against the Kings or keep the lead you can then put the starters back in. Vinny seems to think if he calls a timeout and says "c'mon guys we have to execute" that the Bulls will suddenly be motivated and snap out of their horrible play.

You have to sit players. ex: Phil sat everyone but Scottie in Game 6 of the '92 Finals. Yes Vinny a finals game, and we all know what happened. (Oh by the way Vinny, you have to put the starters back in even if the bench was doing well, last year he would keep with the bench and they would eventually lose what they built, VDN is the worst)

Myers might be better than Vinny but that is no answer, Avery Johnson please we have to get some respect back and he is well respected around the league. I would love Jeff Van Gundy but I don't know if he'll coach again.

 

[JimmyBulls]

If a team can blow a 20 point lead, they can blow a 35 point lead as well. It sucks, but it's one of those things that happens in the game of basketball. The Bulls coaches and players was waiting for the Kings to quit so they can coast to a victory, and that never happened. The fact that they had some many turnovers in the second half proves my point. Those guys thought they won the game in the third quarter, and was looking for the proper exit strategy.

Hell yeah, Vinny is to blame, but so is this entire rotation of players, and the assistant coaches as well. But the players deserves the lion's share of the blame because coaches can't get on the court and play on the court. This Kings game is a epic embarrassment for the whole organization, but the I still would hold onto VDN until the end of the season. I just don't see what the team will gain if he's given a pink slip. The Bulls will still be a off balanced team playing a season where mediocrity to bad basketball should've been pretty much expected.

 

[Diddy1122]

I'm sick & tired of hearing this "There's no point in firing Vinny because it's not going to make anything better blahblahblahblahblah". So what, we just let him be a lame duck all year? How is he really gonna give a crap about the rest of the year? How are the players really gonna give a crap either? Why would they bust their butts for a coach they KNOW isn't coming back?

Keeping Vinny all year is stupid. He's OBVIOUSLY not doing a good job. The players confidence is almost completely drained. And he can't do anything to motivate these guys. Even if firing him means we wave the white flag, keeping him is essentially doing the same thing. He's not going to turn this thing around. He just not good enough of a coach to do that.

Everyone needs to realize how many of his flaws were masked last season due to the fact he had a really good scorer who could space the floor & open things up for everyone else. Vinny has no system, didn't last season & sure as hell doesn't this season. Difference now is, he doesn't have a lights out shooter, who can create & hit his shot at anytime, who draws an extra defender, & free things up for his teammates. About the only good thing Vinny has done this year is give Rose the keys to the car the last 2 weeks. But even in doing that, you need to guide the kid, which Vinny is not doing. It's basically a "do whatever" mentality on offense & that is not going to win games now or anytime in the future.

 

[TheStig]

Diddy1122 wrote:

I'm sick & tired of hearing this "There's no point in firing Vinny because it's not going to make anything better blahblahblahblahblah". So what, we just let him be a lame duck all year? How is he really gonna give a crap about the rest of the year? How are the players really gonna give a crap either? Why would they bust their butts for a coach they KNOW isn't coming back?

Keeping Vinny all year is stupid. He's OBVIOUSLY not doing a good job. The players confidence is almost completely drained. And he can't do anything to motivate these guys. Even if firing him means we wave the white flag, keeping him is essentially doing the same thing. He's not going to turn this thing around. He just not good enough of a coach to do that.

Everyone needs to realize how many of his flaws were masked last season due to the fact he had a really good scorer who could space the floor & open things up for everyone else. Vinny has no system, didn't last season & sure as hell doesn't this season. Difference now is, he doesn't have a lights out shooter, who can create & hit his shot at anytime, who draws an extra defender, & free things up for his teammates. About the only good thing Vinny has done this year is give Rose the keys to the car the last 2 weeks. But even in doing that, you need to guide the kid, which Vinny is not doing. It's basically a "do whatever" mentality on offense & that is not going to win games now or anytime in the future.

You really think players are going to get it together for lame duck Pete Myers? No win Myers? An 0-3 guy who has even less chance to be a head coach after the year Pete Myers?

Keeping Vinny isn't a good move. Hiring Pete Myers, is a worse move. I can't see anything that Myers could do to improve on what Vinny has done. This is the same guy we have passed over multiple times to hire other guys. Even JR realizes hes not a head coach.

Most teams have a real go to player and base their offense around them at the end of the game. Clevland did just that and made the finals. Its not the coaches fault that he lost his best player and the team got worse. Most teams that have that suck the next year. Rose also needs to figure things out for himself and start managing the game. He is a pg, all the great ones manage the game, not their coach telling them when to shoot or drive or pass. Rose needs to own up and step up like he has recently. He needs to realize he is the star and he needs to put the team on his back and create oppurtunities and score for them.

 

[Diddy1122]

TheStig wrote:

You really think players are going to get it together for lame duck Pete Myers? No win Myers? An 0-3 guy who has even less chance to be a head coach after the year Pete Myers?

Keeping Vinny isn't a good move. Hiring Pete Myers, is a worse move. I can't see anything that Myers could do to improve on what Vinny has done. This is the same guy we have passed over multiple times to hire other guys. Even JR realizes hes not a head coach.

Most teams have a real go to player and base their offense around them at the end of the game. Clevland did just that and made the finals. Its not the coaches fault that he lost his best player and the team got worse. Most teams that have that suck the next year. Rose also needs to figure things out for himself and start managing the game. He is a pg, all the great ones manage the game, not their coach telling them when to shoot or drive or pass. Rose needs to own up and step up like he has recently. He needs to realize he is the star and he needs to put the team on his back and create oppurtunities and score for them.

Woah woah woah hold on a minute. Are you kiddin' me? Cleveland has LEBRON JAMES. That's why they made the finals. The Bulls have Rose. Not even friggin' close. And when they had BG, still not even friggin' close. I can't believe you would even make that comparison. I'll admit it's not the coaches fault they lost BG, but that's not what I was saying at all. I was saying BG helped mask how bad of a coach Vinny really is.

What the hell do you think a coach does? Seriously, do you think he just sits on his hands & lets the players do whatever? Do you think he just let's all his players figure it out for themselves? No. That's why it's called coaching. Rose is young, he needs guidance. And that's not telling him when to shoot or when to pass, it's helping him figure out when best to use his talents, when to pull it back, & when to step on the gas. Vinny was supposed to be this "great communicator" who would be good at developing young players. Well I sure as hell don't see that happening.

As for the players playing hard for Myers, I think they'd play harder for him than they are Vinny. They all like him. He's been there forever. He's a Bull lifer. He'll probably still be with the team next season. The same can not be said of Vinny. The fact that the Captain of the team basically said "F U" to the coach & tried his own play at the end of the game is a clear signal to anyone that Vinny has lost this team. If you can't see that, you really need to get your eyes checked.

 

[houheffna]

Woah woah woah hold on a minute. Are you kiddin' me? Cleveland has LEBRON JAMES. That's why they made the finals. The Bulls have Rose. Not even friggin' close. And when they had BG, still not even friggin' close. I can't believe you would even make that comparison. I'll admit it's not the coaches fault they lost BG, but that's not what I was saying at all. I was saying BG helped mask how bad of a coach Vinny really is.

What the hell do you think a coach does? Seriously, do you think he just sits on his hands & lets the players do whatever? Do you think he just let's all his players figure it out for themselves? No. That's why it's called coaching. Rose is young, he needs guidance. And that's not telling him when to shoot or when to pass, it's helping him figure out when best to use his talents, when to pull it back, & when to step on the gas. Vinny was supposed to be this "great communicator" who would be good at developing young players. Well I sure as hell don't see that happening.

As for the players playing hard for Myers, I think they'd play harder for him than they are Vinny. They all like him. He's been there forever. He's a Bull lifer. He'll probably still be with the team next season. The same can not be said of Vinny. The fact that the Captain of the team basically said "F U" to the coach & tried his own play at the end of the game is a clear signal to anyone that Vinny has lost this team. If you can't see that, you really need to get your eyes checked.

I am concerned that on a daily basis, the Bulls are wasting the development of Derrick Rose. Hinrich is getting a bad rap...he is not the only one that abandons the coach's plays. Pete Myers is Reinsdorf's coach...and, I believe, his mole...nothing wrong with that...that's how Phil supposedly got in...

 

[TheStig]

Diddy1122 wrote:

TheStig wrote:

You really think players are going to get it together for lame duck Pete Myers? No win Myers? An 0-3 guy who has even less chance to be a head coach after the year Pete Myers?

Keeping Vinny isn't a good move. Hiring Pete Myers, is a worse move. I can't see anything that Myers could do to improve on what Vinny has done. This is the same guy we have passed over multiple times to hire other guys. Even JR realizes hes not a head coach.

Most teams have a real go to player and base their offense around them at the end of the game. Clevland did just that and made the finals. Its not the coaches fault that he lost his best player and the team got worse. Most teams that have that suck the next year. Rose also needs to figure things out for himself and start managing the game. He is a pg, all the great ones manage the game, not their coach telling them when to shoot or drive or pass. Rose needs to own up and step up like he has recently. He needs to realize he is the star and he needs to put the team on his back and create oppurtunities and score for them.

Woah woah woah hold on a minute. Are you kiddin' me? Cleveland has LEBRON JAMES. That's why they made the finals. The Bulls have Rose. Not even friggin' close. And when they had BG, still not even friggin' close. I can't believe you would even make that comparison. I'll admit it's not the coaches fault they lost BG, but that's not what I was saying at all. I was saying BG helped mask how bad of a coach Vinny really is.

What the hell do you think a coach does? Seriously, do you think he just sits on his hands & lets the players do whatever? Do you think he just let's all his players figure it out for themselves? No. That's why it's called coaching. Rose is young, he needs guidance. And that's not telling him when to shoot or when to pass, it's helping him figure out when best to use his talents, when to pull it back, & when to step on the gas. Vinny was supposed to be this "great communicator" who would be good at developing young players. Well I sure as hell don't see that happening.

As for the players playing hard for Myers, I think they'd play harder for him than they are Vinny. They all like him. He's been there forever. He's a Bull lifer. He'll probably still be with the team next season. The same can not be said of Vinny. The fact that the Captain of the team basically said "F U" to the coach & tried his own play at the end of the game is a clear signal to anyone that Vinny has lost this team. If you can't see that, you really need to get your eyes checked.

Sigh, this debate is stupid because in the end two things are certain. 1) I would replace Vinny with a good coach in a heart beat. 2) Vinny will defeinetly be gone by the summer at the latest or will have preformed well enough to save his job(very doubtful). What we disagree on is, when to make the change and whom. I think that picking the cheapest option, which is what would happen if vinny was fired, will just get us in an equal or worse place like we had with boylan after skiles was fired.

Your putting words in my mouth, at no point did I say Rose or BG were anywhere as good as bron. Thats why we have been nowhere near the finals. Of course good players mask coaching deficiencies. Its a players league, except for 5 or 6 coaches the rest are replaceable without a noticeable increase or decrease. Vinny is clearly a little below average but I don't think he held the team back last year. They overachieved from what the media expected. So clearly, he isn't a huge liability, the players and management have much more to do with the downfall. It just seems like he is getting scapegoated and not giving Vinny the proper time to learn and grow.

I don't see how Vinny didn't help develop players both Rose, Gibson and Noah have shown improvement during times while he was here. I honestly don't think that any coach will be able to really develop rose outside of a former pg like avery johnson, byron scott, or mark jackson. But Vinny was a pg so I am not sure any of those guys will give him more insight. Bottom line is, star players come in with that instinct. Rose doesn't have that and a coach isn't going to develop that for him.

Pete Myers is like the sweet, old, half senile substitue teacher that everyone walks all over. Obviously the organization didn't feel he would make a better coach than vinny even with all the "advantages" you said he had. In fact, he has been passed over many times and didn't even get the interim job over boylan, who was a much worse version of skilies. The organization has no faith in Pete Myers other than him being a yes man. Kirk Hinrich, as much as he looks like a teachers pet or coaching favorite has silently turned into a coach killer. He does what he wants when he wants too and sucks it up till coaches get fired. Same thing happened with skilies. The game is quickly passing kirk by and his attitude is horribly, you can even see it on the court. He argues every call on him and complains almost as much as Sheed. Its no coincidence two coaches have gotten fired when kirk started sucking.

 

[houheffna]

No its not Vinny's fault...solely. Management has put together a crappy team that at its peak was mediocre with mediocre players. Vinny didn't draft James Johnson, the guy who can kickbox better than he can play basketball....That said, Vinny CANNOT COACH! That is so obvious. He cannot coach!!!

The only recent success the Bulls have had is when Rose freelances...otherwise the offense is stuck. If they let Rose do his thing, the team would do better.

Noah, Rose, and others develop DESPITE the presence of Vinny not because of his presence. I expected Rose to be better, the only time he has shown progress is when he was practically insubordinate.

You don't need a point guard to develop Rose, but it sure would be helpful...Skiles is doing a great job with Jennings...but Westphal wasn't a pg was he? I am not sure...he has done very well with Tyreke Evans...making him the main man and harnessing all of the ability. Westphal and Skiles might have franchise cornerstones on their hands...

By the way, I see Byron Scott mentioned as a pg...he wasn't the pg...he was Ben Gordon...didn't even think about that until now...but that is who he was.......Magic was the pg...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

No its not Vinny's fault...solely. Management has put together a crappy team that at its peak was mediocre with mediocre players. Vinny didn't draft James Johnson, the guy who can kickbox better than he can play basketball....That said, Vinny CANNOT COACH! That is so obvious. He cannot coach!!!

The only recent success the Bulls have had is when Rose freelances...otherwise the offense is stuck. If they let Rose do his thing, the team would do better.

Noah, Rose, and others develop DESPITE the presence of Vinny not because of his presence. I expected Rose to be better, the only time he has shown progress is when he was practically insubordinate.

You don't need a point guard to develop Rose, but it sure would be helpful...Skiles is doing a great job with Jennings...but Westphal wasn't a pg was he? I am not sure...he has done very well with Tyreke Evans...making him the main man and harnessing all of the ability. Westphal and Skiles might have franchise cornerstones on their hands...

By the way, I see Byron Scott mentioned as a pg...he wasn't the pg...he was Ben Gordon...didn't even think about that until now...but that is who he was.......Magic was the pg...

My contention, is that no one the bulls will replace vinny with can coach better. Pete Myers is not a upgrade. There is a reason he keeps getting passed over despite being "beloved" in the organization. I also don't know how much better you can expect Vinny to preform with this roster, especially when key guys like Salmons, Kirk and Miller just can't hit open shots. Its not like they are getting bad shots, they just can't shoot a respectable %.

From all reports, the complaint is that Vinny doesn't have a system. So the only thing stopping Rose is Rose. Rose isn't assertive, he just doesn't have that quality. I wish he did but he dribbles up and just passes it off to the wing or will drive and kick most of the time.

Rose and Noah develop because they are given a large role and guaranteed PT. Thats something previous bulls never got with other coaches in town. VDN only stunts JJ's growth by gluing him to the bench.

Evans isn't a true PG. He is a score first point. He has a lower assist rate than Gilbert Arenas. He is very similar to how Wade came into the league. And you don't need a coach that was a pg to develop a point guard but it certainly helps. Especially when that is your primary focus now.

Your right, Magic was the PG. I thought Scott played more PG toward the end of his career after Magic was gone but he really didn't.