fred just called in for the post game show.

[houheffna]

What are the major crosstreets for Roseland? Is it near 95th and Stoney Island? I was hit in the back with a 2 x 4 back in 97 outside the Verson Steel plant there. That area is brutal.

Your story just made me ill. People are just barbaric.

The area I am in I would say 103rd to 121st between Halsted and going east I cannot really say how far maybe to the expressway, maybe farther. Its South of the area you are talking about...but that area is rough too. Either way, I don't leave the house without a purpose...I stay my big ass in the house if I have no reason to leave.

That is why I am trying to get my Master's, get a job and move back to Beverly. I love it over there...especially since they got rid of that St. Patrick's Day Parade.

A 2x4? That is just nuts man...ridiculous.

 

[clonetrooper264]

So Kirk gets his free pass because he's white? Are we seriously saying that? That's hardly his fault then. He can't choose his race. If white kids look up to Kirk, then so be it. That's not his fault either. This is a predominately white country, and most of you are probably white. Can you not see why people would like Hinrich then? Or if they don't, why they will not pick on him as much?

Really the only thing that Kirk is at fault for is shooting about as well as I do (I am first to admit that I am far from being good at basketball...relatively speaking) from the field. That's 100% his fault. And he does need to step it up.

 

[Shakes]

Basketball strikes me as one of the few careers a white guy can choose where his whiteness is a liability rather than an advantage. The general perception is that white guys can't play basketball. The stereotype is so well known they made a movie based on the premise! If anything you'd expect the white players to be underrated because of this.

So I find it hard to believe that Kirk's whiteness has been a plus for him through his career. He should have tried to be a CEO, then hell yeah being white would be way in his favour. Basketball, not so much.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Shakes wrote:

Basketball strikes me as one of the few careers a white guy can choose where his whiteness is a liability rather than an advantage. The general perception is that white guys can't play basketball. The stereotype is so well known they made a movie based on the premise! If anything you'd expect the white players to be underrated because of this.

So I find it hard to believe that Kirk's whiteness has been a plus for him through his career. He should have tried to be a CEO, then hell yeah being white would be way in his favour. Basketball, not so much.

Well using that premise we should expect Kirk to play poorly because he's white and white people can't play basketball :blink: Ummm, not really. Some of basketball's greatest players are white. Bird, Mikan, Rick Barry, Cousy, Maravich, and the guy on the logo Jerry West to name a few. Kirk Hinrich was a #7 pick in a pretty stacked draft, this guy can definitely play. He's just WAY underachieving right now. We all know he is a streaky shooter, so we shouldn't be shocked that he has his 3-10 nights, but to say that he's a bad player is just flat out wrong. And Fred, he is NOT a 3 million a year player. You think BG getting 9 million is underpaying? Hinrich for 3 million is like you getting a paycheck for minimum wage for your job.

 

[pinkizdead]

well kirk isn't a scorer. he's a defensive player who can play the point.

 

[Diddy1122]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Kirk Hinrich was a #7 pick in a pretty stacked draft, this guy can definitely play. He's just WAY underachieving right now. We all know he is a streaky shooter, so we shouldn't be shocked that he has his 3-10 nights, but to say that he's a bad player is just flat out wrong. And Fred, he is NOT a 3 million a year player. You think BG getting 9 million is underpaying? Hinrich for 3 million is like you getting a paycheck for minimum wage for your job.

Every night for Kirk is virtually a 3-10 night. The guy has only shot over 42% from the field & over 40% from the 3 in 2 of his 6 seasons here. He's not a good shooter. It's that simple. His defense is above average but he has his difficulties on smaller, faster guards.

He's not bad, but Fred is right, the guy is overrated. Especially by the media in this town. He's worth more than 3 mill cuz if a guy like Kapono is making $6mill, Kirk is worth more than that. But for his role, as a bench player sixth man whatever, & getting paid $9mill is certainly overpaid. With what I'm seeing out on the court, the WIDE OPEN bricks from ALL OVER the floor, Kirk should be getting skewered by not just Fred, but YOU, the Hinrich Fan. If I was a Kirk fan I'd be utterly disgusted with him right now, like I am with Jay Cutler. I expect a $9mill NBA guard, who JR said was part of "a hell of a three-guard rotation", to hit a WIDE OPEN jumpshot that I was knocking down as an 8yr old playing park district ball.

 

[Shakes]

Not many guys shoot over 40% from 3 every year. Kirk shoots 38% for his career. Certainly not elite, but that puts him in the top 30% of NBA shooters, and certainly better than an 8 year old. I know he's not shooting 38% right now, but he's shot 22% for stretches before, and he'll shoot 50% for a stretch as well, and in the end it all evens out.

I guess I don't see the point in worrying about a guy shooting poorly over 8 games when you know from the previous 440 that he's better than that. The shots will eventually fall.

 

[maq25060]

this board is really not my flavor...the calling out of "Hinrich fans" is the reason why there is a obvious case of perceived hate...

just as shakes points out, to go to a source that you fully understand lacks bball knowledge yet still hold their word as the end all be all thoughts of most Bulls fans is one of the more asinine things you could ever do.

also to make the assumption that every "Hinrich fan" is handing out free passes (or every media outlet for that example) is another obvious reason as to why people think you hate Hinrich.

on the internet, the opinion on Hinrich is all over the place, just as it was with Ben Gordon. for every irrational Hinrich fan you'll find at good discussion places (mind you, there arent many at all) you will find 2 or 3 more Hinrich haters that do their fair share of exaggerating Kirk's faults. what is ALWAYS ignored is the group of people that have a clear understanding of what Kirk brings to this team and appreciation the work he does on and night in and night out basis, and are able to call him for his faults on a game by game basis. no one takes the time to make a note of these people...they only stick a side that is CLEARLY wrong and choose to beat their chest on the subject over those people. it gets sickening...just as it did with Gordon.

 

[Fred]

Diddy1122 wrote:

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Kirk Hinrich was a #7 pick in a pretty stacked draft, this guy can definitely play. He's just WAY underachieving right now. We all know he is a streaky shooter, so we shouldn't be shocked that he has his 3-10 nights, but to say that he's a bad player is just flat out wrong. And Fred, he is NOT a 3 million a year player. You think BG getting 9 million is underpaying? Hinrich for 3 million is like you getting a paycheck for minimum wage for your job.

Every night for Kirk is virtually a 3-10 night. The guy has only shot over 42% from the field & over 40% from the 3 in 2 of his 6 seasons here. He's not a good shooter. It's that simple. His defense is above average but he has his difficulties on smaller, faster guards.

He's not bad, but Fred is right, the guy is overrated. Especially by the media in this town. He's worth more than 3 mill cuz if a guy like Kapono is making $6mill, Kirk is worth more than that. But for his role, as a bench player sixth man whatever, & getting paid $9mill is certainly overpaid. With what I'm seeing out on the court, the WIDE OPEN bricks from ALL OVER the floor, Kirk should be getting skewered by not just Fred, but YOU, the Hinrich Fan. If I was a Kirk fan I'd be utterly disgusted with him right now, like I am with Jay Cutler. I expect a $9mill NBA guard, who JR said was part of "a hell of a three-guard rotation", to hit a WIDE OPEN jumpshot that I was knocking down as an 8yr old playing park district ball.

This is all I am asking from the media and Kirk fans. Honesty. Diddy has long been a Kirk supporter, and he's provided some of the best arguments I've heard in his defense. But he's come out and given an honest assessment of our highly paid guard. There is no defense of what he's done this year. And it's an exact replica of his 07-08 start. He was the primary reason Skiles was fired, and he took none of the blame. I don't hear enough critical comments from Wennington and King about this pathetic start. I actually heard PRAISE from that freaking idiot Funk during the Milwaukee game, when Jennings was scoring 25. I want the media to call it like it is.

 

[Fred]

maq25060 wrote:

this board is really not my flavor...the calling out of "Hinrich fans" is the reason why there is a obvious case of perceived hate...

just as shakes points out, to go to a source that you fully understand lacks bball knowledge yet still hold their word as the end all be all thoughts of most Bulls fans is one of the more asinine things you could ever do.

also to make the assumption that every "Hinrich fan" is handing out free passes (or every media outlet for that example) is another obvious reason as to why people think you hate Hinrich.

on the internet, the opinion on Hinrich is all over the place, just as it was with Ben Gordon. for every irrational Hinrich fan you'll find at good discussion places (mind you, there arent many at all) you will find 2 or 3 more Hinrich haters that do their fair share of exaggerating Kirk's faults. what is ALWAYS ignored is the group of people that have a clear understanding of what Kirk brings to this team and appreciation the work he does on and night in and night out basis, and are able to call him for his faults on a game by game basis. no one takes the time to make a note of these people...they only stick a side that is CLEARLY wrong and choose to beat their chest on the subject over those people. it gets sickening...just as it did with Gordon.

I'm going to assume you're talking about me. Where do I make the assumption that every "Hinrich fan" is handing out free passes? Please provide a quote or evidence where I said that?

"what is ALWAYS ignored is the group of people that have a clear understanding of what Kirk brings to this team and appreciation the work he does on and night in and night out basis"
- Please define what we this "work he does on and night in and night out basis", and justify why he should be paid 9.5 million for it.

And finally, the vast majority of Bulls fans get their impressions on the Bulls:
a. from the radio and tv team
b. the pre and post game show host
c. The very few times they are discussed on Sports radio
d. The beat writers and columnists

You may find Kirk criticism rampant at the Bullspodcasters.com, or on other "internet" sites. You don't find it at a, b, c, and d. And I don't know why. But it's offensive to me that on those primary outlets, Gordon was criticized far more often last year, during a fantastic season, than Kirk has been this year, during his semi-annual trainwreck.

 

[Fred]

pinkizdead wrote:

well kirk isn't a scorer. he's a defensive player who can play the point.

The Bulls expect scoring from Kirk. No defensive players in this league get contracts averaging almost 10 million for defense. Bruce Bowen, Battier, Trevor Ariza...all superior defensive specialists, and all average about 6 million per year. He was counted on in 07-08 to be a top 3 scorer. He failed terribly and Skiles was fired. He was counted on this year to pick up the scoring in light of Gordon's loss. He's sucking, even beyond my expectations. We deserve better.

 

[charity stripe]

Fred you didn't tell us the whole story! What was Kashul's response??

 

[Fred]

Couldn't believe it, but he agreed with me. A friend who heard me actually said he complemented my call after he hung up. Back in 2002, I used to call Carmen every postgame. One day, Kashul joined him, and we got into a huge argument. I was calling for Krause to be fired and he was defending him.

 

[Kush77]

clonetrooper264 wrote:

So Kirk gets his free pass because he's white? Are we seriously saying that? That's hardly his fault then. He can't choose his race. If white kids look up to Kirk, then so be it. That's not his fault either. This is a predominately white country, and most of you are probably white. Can you not see why people would like Hinrich then? Or if they don't, why they will not pick on him as much?

Really the only thing that Kirk is at fault for is shooting about as well as I do (I am first to admit that I am far from being good at basketball...relatively speaking) from the field. That's 100% his fault. And he does need to step it up.

Yes I'm seriously saying that. Because it's true and people are too uncomfortable to talk about it because of race.

I'm not because my father is black and my mother is white. I never have problems talking about race because of my background. It should be discussed more.

I'm not saying anything is Kirk fault, white kids look up to him. That's fine. That's what I said. But we need to tell it like it is. Player A is the best player on the team for 5 years and player B has been terrible the last two years. Player A gets nothing but criticism while player B gets a free pass in the media. It's pretty clear to me.

Larry Bird said it himself. There was a group discussion about 4 years ago, maybe 5, I don't remember. It was on ESPN. It was Magic, Larry Carmelo Anthony and LeBron James.
Larry Bird said it's good for the league when there is a white star player. He got ripped by some people of course. People who for some reason don't want to admit that race plays a factor in things. But what Larry said is true when it comes to the sport of basketball that is dominated by black guys. That's just the truth.

Kirk Hinrich signed a big extension a few years ago, has been bad for two years and is off to a terrible start this year. But excuses are constantly made for him.

Again, ask yourself this question. What would the level of criticism be if Ben Gordon came out and averaged 9.9ppg? He got ripped to shreds when he led the team in scoring. I can't imagine what would be said about him now.

 

[Kush77]

Shakes wrote:

Basketball strikes me as one of the few careers a white guy can choose where his whiteness is a liability rather than an advantage. The general perception is that white guys can't play basketball. The stereotype is so well known they made a movie based on the premise! If anything you'd expect the white players to be underrated because of this.

So I find it hard to believe that Kirk's whiteness has been a plus for him through his career. He should have tried to be a CEO, then hell yeah being white would be way in his favour. Basketball, not so much.

Whitness is an advantage because when your white and good in the NBA, you blow up.

Jason Williams - example #1.

One decent player that blew up in the national media. Sure, it was the first time the Kings were good, but the story was Williams was WHITE. White chocolate etc. etc.

If Jason Williams would the hype be as great as it was for him? No.

The movie was called White Men Can't Jump. Not White Men can't play basketball.

White people do make up the majority of the country and the majority of people that attend basketball games. So when a white player does well, he gets big time support. Nothing wrong with it, lets just call it for what it is.

 

[charity stripe]

I remember last year Lawrence Holmes said that Gordon was the 4th best guard on the team. He said Hinrich, Rose, and Salmons were clearly better.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Diddy1122 wrote:

clonetrooper264 wrote:

Kirk Hinrich was a #7 pick in a pretty stacked draft, this guy can definitely play. He's just WAY underachieving right now. We all know he is a streaky shooter, so we shouldn't be shocked that he has his 3-10 nights, but to say that he's a bad player is just flat out wrong. And Fred, he is NOT a 3 million a year player. You think BG getting 9 million is underpaying? Hinrich for 3 million is like you getting a paycheck for minimum wage for your job.

Every night for Kirk is virtually a 3-10 night. The guy has only shot over 42% from the field & over 40% from the 3 in 2 of his 6 seasons here. He's not a good shooter. It's that simple. His defense is above average but he has his difficulties on smaller, faster guards.

He's not bad, but Fred is right, the guy is overrated. Especially by the media in this town. He's worth more than 3 mill cuz if a guy like Kapono is making $6mill, Kirk is worth more than that. But for his role, as a bench player sixth man whatever, & getting paid $9mill is certainly overpaid. With what I'm seeing out on the court, the WIDE OPEN bricks from ALL OVER the floor, Kirk should be getting skewered by not just Fred, but YOU, the Hinrich Fan. If I was a Kirk fan I'd be utterly disgusted with him right now, like I am with Jay Cutler. I expect a $9mill NBA guard, who JR said was part of "a hell of a three-guard rotation", to hit a WIDE OPEN jumpshot that I was knocking down as an 8yr old playing park district ball.

I as a Hinrich fan AM in fact utterly disgusted with what I see. I expect him to be able to hit a shot I would be able to hit, and then some. I don't expect him to be a top 3 scorer like Fred does because that is an unrealistic expectation regardless of what he's being paid because quite frankly, scoring is not his game. He did not get paid to only play defense he got payed to play defense, be a facilitator in the offense, and be a leader. How can he lead while absolutely sucking from the field? In practice. He's a good influence as a person, and while you may be all over the place in terms of opinions on his defense, you have to admit that he could teach Rose a thing or two when it comes to defense. If you can go and score at will in a 1 on 1 game against Hinrich then fine he is not a good defender and he is overrated and overpaid blah blah blah.

 

[maq25060]

edit

 

[maq25060]

Kush77 wrote:

clonetrooper264 wrote:
But we need to tell it like it is. Player A is the best player on the team for 5 years and player B has been terrible the last two years. Player A gets nothing but criticism while player B gets a free pass in the media. It's pretty clear to me.

Kirk Hinrich signed a big extension a few years ago, has been bad for two years and is off to a terrible start this year. But excuses are constantly made for him.

couple things, Hinrich was bad last year? really? we've got some totally different definitions of bad then.

and while i do believe Hinrich gets more leniency b/c he's white (i have no doubt about this in my mind), i think the level you're taking it to is exaggerated. ben gordon was a VERY easy target b/c of his game play. it wasn't just the Bulls media outlets making note of Gordon's bad shots and the such, but it was every announcer who saw this team from Doug Collins to Marv Albert. especially when you compare it to Hinrich's game, which is inferior, but also a lot more controlled.

also, the "free pass" in the media that you guys are talking about it something I'm not seeing. first, i dont take anything Stacey and Funk have to say seriously...they're jokes. EVERYONE posting here should know they're jokes...so to expect them to be accurate in basketball analysis is a true exercise in retardation. but, when we have national games, and Hinrich isn't making his shots, guys call him for that. when I'm listening to the game on the radio, and both Salmons and Hinrich are sucking it up...both Bill and Chuck make a note of it during the broadcast. Even on Sportscenter, after the debacle in Toronto, the guys there made note to how bad Hinrich (and the Bulls) shot that game. could Hinrich get more blame? he could...he is shooting the ball that poorly right now and it's really one of the main things he needs to do well for the Bulls this year, but to say he hasn't been called out at all is flat out wrong.

 

[maq25060]

Fred wrote:

maq25060 wrote:

this board is really not my flavor...the calling out of "Hinrich fans" is the reason why there is a obvious case of perceived hate...

just as shakes points out, to go to a source that you fully understand lacks bball knowledge yet still hold their word as the end all be all thoughts of most Bulls fans is one of the more asinine things you could ever do.

also to make the assumption that every "Hinrich fan" is handing out free passes (or every media outlet for that example) is another obvious reason as to why people think you hate Hinrich.

on the internet, the opinion on Hinrich is all over the place, just as it was with Ben Gordon. for every irrational Hinrich fan you'll find at good discussion places (mind you, there arent many at all) you will find 2 or 3 more Hinrich haters that do their fair share of exaggerating Kirk's faults. what is ALWAYS ignored is the group of people that have a clear understanding of what Kirk brings to this team and appreciation the work he does on and night in and night out basis, and are able to call him for his faults on a game by game basis. no one takes the time to make a note of these people...they only stick a side that is CLEARLY wrong and choose to beat their chest on the subject over those people. it gets sickening...just as it did with Gordon.

I'm going to assume you're talking about me. Where do I make the assumption that every "Hinrich fan" is handing out free passes? Please provide a quote or evidence where I said that?

i can't provide that quote, but it is the way you talk about or to Hinrich fans that made me provide that assumption. it should be pointed out that you go on this personal crusade against all Hinrich fans to justify his crappy play despite the fact that we're not satisfied with it either. you say it's only to get a fair representation of Hinrich's game, but the way you address it to start does not dress it in that fashion.

"what is ALWAYS ignored is the group of people that have a clear understanding of what Kirk brings to this team and appreciation the work he does on and night in and night out basis"
- Please define what we this "work he does on and night in and night out basis",

this year, Kirk has been the leader on defense, along with Deng. He's undoubtedly the most active on that side of the floor this year and he's doing a great job with rotations. offensively, i think he started fine the first 2 games, but everything went completely downhill after that. he's played like crap. he's shooting below 20 percent (or right at it) from the 3 point line. one of the few things we need Kirk to do for this team is to hit 3 pointers (especially open 3 pointers) and he's simply not doing that...and it's not acceptable. he REALLY needs to improve his shooting right now. but i'd say his decision making offensively has been fine outside of a few head scratching turnovers and the usual Hinrich overdribbling. I did notice last game that he turned into a taller version of Duhon. in the 2nd half of that Toronto game, I counted 3 shots that Hinrich turned down that either turned into a turnover (2) or a worse look at the basket that turned into a miss (1). things like that are also unacceptable from Hinrich at this point in time.

and justify why he should be paid 9.5 million for it.

this is BEYOND infuriating and annoying...how do you know i think what Kirk Hinrich does is worth 9.5 million dollars? quote me as to where i said what he does is worth 9.5 million...

how in the world can i (and better yet, why in the world would or should i) try to justify something i don't believe and never EVER said i did believe? you've got your assumptions as to what "Hinrich fans" believe...and they're MOSTLY wrong..."Hinrich fans" are just as sensible and expect just as much from the team as you do. we arent satisfied with a guy shooting 30 percent just b/c he's trying hard.

And finally, the vast majority of Bulls fans get their impressions on the Bulls:
a. from the radio and tv team
b. the pre and post game show host
c. The very few times they are discussed on Sports radio
d. The beat writers and columnists

You may find Kirk criticism rampant at the Bullspodcasters.com, or on other "internet" sites. You don't find it at a, b, c, and d. And I don't know why. But it's offensive to me that on those primary outlets, Gordon was criticized far more often last year, during a fantastic season, than Kirk has been this year, during his semi-annual trainwreck.

You dont hear it from our local TV broadcasters, no. You HAVEN'T heard it from many national broadcasters this season, but to be fair the season just started. I do remember them talking about the terrible season Hinrich had in 07-08 though as I could only see national games b/c I was away from home. Also, Hinrich isn't a big fish. He's a big fish to the people that follow the Bulls, but not in the pond that is the NBA (which plays into both the tv team and the pre and post game show from national guys). I've already gone over what I think of Funk and Stacey, but to humor you, yes they could def do a better job of pointing out Hinrich's faults. They're idiots though...I mean, really big idiots.

Bulls get coverage on sports radio? News to me...and not shocking that they wouldn't really know what's going on with the team.

I'm not much of a reader of writers and columnist so I couldn't comment. But, as I said in another post, Gordon's game compared to Hinrich's is much easier to bash. Not only does Gordon, at times, play a style of game that was easy to dislike, but he's also a bigger fish than Hinrich is.