Gary F**kin Harris

[Xplosive]

Honestly, I'm not good with how contracts work and what not, but unless that deal was very backloaded, it wouldn't have really worked out.How could they have paid him that much? The Knicks weren't willing to do a S&T and take back salary, and Carmelo was too wishy-washy to demand a trade to the Bulls and give them the necessary leverage. The Bulls were offering 2 years plus an extension(which would be after the new TV deal in 2016), I think that was a fair deal.

Carmelo said winning was his priority, and the Bulls made sure to talk about this in their meeting. Unfortunately, Carmelo weighed money and mediocrity more than winning. That's his decision. The Knicks could have offered him more money regardless.



They would have had to pay Boozer regardless of if they get Love or not unless they were able to ship off Boozer in a 3-way trade or something, which probably wasn't happening. And the 13 M(NOT 17, since the lakers put in a bid) doesn't count towards the salary cap or luxury tax. So,actually, the Bulls get a better player for about 10 million dollars cheaper on the salary cap. Sounds pretty good to me.

Maybe they should have taken a shot at Love earlier (after Melo flaked), but the issue is that they didn't want to lose out here. Gasol was expressing interest in the Bulls, and if the Bulls pursue Love instead, they don't get Gasol. What if they don't get Love either? Cleveland has Wiggins to offer and Golden State has a better deal in place.

If Gasol wants to sign for 7 mil a year with the Bulls, then sign him up. And look, even WITH Gasol, the Bulls are still in the mix(possibly) for Love. But they have Gasol at 7 M a year to fall back on if Love ends up going to the Cavs or something.

There were tons of posts about how the Bulls could come up with the cash to pay Carmelo, and of course the Knicks were going to say they wouldn't do a sign and trade but if the Bulls got Melo to agree to a certain dollar amount the Knicks would have changed their story like every other team that loses their star player. Instead of offering Melo a strong deal they gave him 2 year early termination options or 4 year less than Derrick Rose is paid options (according to all reports). The 2 year option was probably most appealing but then Melo would have to trust the Bulls to give him a max deal in two years or that another team would be lining up to give a 32yo free agent a max offer. Thus, Melo took the safer option and stayed where he was already happy, comfortable, and sure to get the most money.

I don't object to your "look at the bright side" perspective, I just don't agree with it at the moment. I felt the Bulls had enough options at SF with Butler and Mirotic coming over. I don't think Euro PF's easily turn into NBA PF's so from what I saw of Mirotic clips, he should play SF. Thus what sense does it make to give up 3 draft picks and take back a bad contract just to grab another SF?

The Bulls need/needed another ball handler and shot creator to take pressure off Rose in the 4th quarter when he is run down from playing long minutes. So far DMC has looked like a good shot creator so I can't honestly say I'm sure it won't work but I can still say I don't think it was the right move. Fire GarPax watch should still be in full effect if this team doesn't at least make the finals.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Thus what sense does it make to give up 3 draft picks and take back a bad contract just to grab another SF?

Well assuming the bad contract you refer to was Randolph (and really...less than 2M is a bad contract?), that doesn't really matter anymore since he's now gone. Sending a 2nd round pick doesn't really matter much either imo since 2nd rounders rarely turn out to be good. In most cases, you'd package a couple mid to late 1sts to get a lotto pick without any questions asked. The only reason this is an "issue" is that we took McDermott, someone who wasn't real high on our lists going into the draft.

But at the end of the day, we'll have to wait out at least the season to see how well this pick pans out. Summer league doesn't say much, but thriving in summer league is definitely a better sign than sucking in summer league. Imo, his shooting ability will be very important to this team and I think we'll at least see the value of that this season. Shot creation is still up in the air.

 

[Axl Rose]

There were tons of posts about how the Bulls could come up with the cash to pay Carmelo, and of course the Knicks were going to say they wouldn't do a sign and trade but if the Bulls got Melo to agree to a certain dollar amount the Knicks would have changed their story like every other team that loses their star player. Instead of offering Melo a strong deal they gave him 2 year early termination options or 4 year less than Derrick Rose is paid options (according to all reports). The 2 year option was probably most appealing but then Melo would have to trust the Bulls to give him a max deal in two years or that another team would be lining up to give a 32yo free agent a max offer. Thus, Melo took the safer option and stayed where he was already happy, comfortable, and sure to get the most money.

the 2 year deal was a great offer....we kept the team intact and Melo would only have to take a paycut for 2 years then reap the benefits of a huge cap increase...according to SAS Melo was heavily considering this offer

i dont know what other strong offer they could have made it was either trade S&T, trade Taj or Melo takes massive paycut

if he didnt want to take the risk of the 2 year option...he could have went to Phil and said he was gonna take the 2 year deal and i think Phil would have engaged in S&T talks

he was indecisive about what he wanted to do...if he would have been stern on his stance to go to Chicago he would have been here
------


Nikola is not a SF

 

[Bear Pride]

Haven't been on the site lately, but its nice to see I wasn't forgotten.

With that said, I enjoyed what I saw from McDermott (How many times did I say I didn't think he would be a bust?), he was offensively aggressive and he was getting to the foul line a lot which was most impressive. Pretty disappointing to see him miss the Bulls last game with the foot injury however.

BUT.

Gary Harris DEN 5 games 18.6 PPG 4.2 Reb and 2.0 Ast and 2.6 Steals per game.

vs

Doug McDermott 4 games 18.0 PPG 4.0 Reb and 2.8 Ast and 0.00 Steals per game


I wouldn't say McDermott outplayed Harris by much if at all. DMC shot the ball a lot better but often looked lost on defense and was constantly late on rotations leading to open jumpers. If I am to be fair, I would say McDermott had a slightly better Summer League than Harris but definitely not so much as to be worth passing up on another top twenty player and taking on a worthless contract to make it worse.

Fire GarPax is still in effect.

No respect at all for this answer!

 

[Bear Pride]

the 2 year deal was a great offer....we kept the team intact and Melo would only have to take a paycut for 2 years then reap the benefits of a huge cap increase...according to SAS Melo was heavily considering this offer

i dont know what other strong offer they could have made it was either trade S&T, trade Taj or Melo takes massive paycut

if he didnt want to take the risk of the 2 year option...he could have went to Phil and said he was gonna take the 2 year deal and i think Phil would have engaged in S&T talks

he was indecisive about what he wanted to do...if he would have been stern on his stance to go to Chicago he would have been here
------


Nikola is not a SF

Niko can and will play some SF.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

There were tons of posts about how the Bulls could come up with the cash to pay Carmelo

How many of them were actually feasible? The Bulls did not have a lot of cap room,and trading away players for cap can be tricky and also risky.

and of course the Knicks were going to say they wouldn't do a sign and trade but if the Bulls got Melo to agree to a certain dollar amount the Knicks would have changed their story like every other team that loses their star player.

Even if that could happen(which it wouldn't have), the Bulls would not be able to commit as money as the knicks could, (30+ mil less over 5 years). I don't see how this max deal would have changed much. Melo clearly liked the deal the Bulls had on the table but all in all, preferred to go back to the Knicks. That's what happened. Again, this isn't about GarPax. This is about Melo.

Instead of offering Melo a strong deal they gave him 2 year early termination options or 4 year less than Derrick Rose is paid options (according to all reports). The 2 year option was probably most appealing but then Melo would have to trust the Bulls to give him a max deal in two years or that another team would be lining up to give a 32yo free agent a max offer. Thus, Melo took the safer option and stayed where he was already happy, comfortable, and sure to get the most money.

Which was the best offer they could make.Let's get real, the Bulls weren't going to put a max deal on the table if they couldn't work it out before actually getting Melo to commit. Melo would get paid after the new TV contract anyways(because of the impending salary cap rise). I don't think he would be worried about that barring injury.

I don't object to your "look at the bright side" perspective, I just don't agree with it at the moment. I felt the Bulls had enough options at SF with Butler and Mirotic coming over. I don't think Euro PF's easily turn into NBA PF's so from what I saw of Mirotic clips, he should play SF. Thus what sense does it make to give up 3 draft picks and take back a bad contract just to grab another SF?

Mirotic can play as a 3/4 hybrid. He needs to build up some strength, but he is certainly capable of being a stretch four. He has the size and the floor spacing ability. I think he should primarily be a PF and fill in some minutes at SF.

Giving up a second round pick is nothing, and Randolph is not even an issue anymore. I don't know that I agree with trading 2 firsts for McDermott essentially, but he seems to be holding his own and he presents a very dangerous ability to create offense, especially from behind the 3 point line. The bulls need that. The jury is still out on him(and,of course, the others in his draft class), so it's hard for me to say how I feel about this. I wasn't very high on him on draft night, but I think he could starter quality.

The Bulls need/needed another ball handler and shot creator to take pressure off Rose in the 4th quarter when he is run down from playing long minutes. So far DMC has looked like a good shot creator so I can't honestly say I'm sure it won't work but I can still say I don't think it was the right move. Fire GarPax watch should still be in full effect if this team doesn't at least make the finals.

In order to make things easier for the ball handlers and shot creators, there needs to be good shooting and floor spacing. Having guys who can knock down shots is very important in the fourth quarter. It's not all about having a guy start playing hero and creating magical offense. Sometimes having nice spacing, ball movement, and knocking down some 3's makes all the difference in the fourth quarter. The San Antonio Spurs agree.

With Noah and Gasol, the bulls have two big men who can co-facilitate the offense and see to it that guys who can shoot will get the ball. They can also help Rose and Brooks, two capable shot creators, to get cutting opportunities to create offense.

I mentioned Brooks. You want a shot creator? Brooks is your man. Sure, he's off the bench, but he can come in the fourth quarter and be a spark plug. And he was at a good value.

In general, getting a shot creator can and will help on offense. But there are other things to consider, different approaches, different dimensions.

 

[Axl Rose]

Niko can and will play some SF.

we'll see

the ppl that have really studied him say hes a PF only

 

[houheffna]

I said from the beginning that anything less than a 4year $90 Million offer is a joke and wouldn't convince Carmelo to leave what New York was offering. Plan B should have always been Love not Gasol. Paying PG $7M on top of the $17M they had to pay Boozer to leave is not an upgrade. Gasol's 17+10rebs isn't much better than Boozer's 14+8rebs and Boozer will likely put up those same 17 points and 10 rebs with the Lakers that Gasol had.

Who told you Love wasn't plan B? Just because they signed Gasol (time was of the essence in that situation) doesn't mean he took priority over Love. Based on supposed trade rumors, the Bulls have been more than willing to go after Love from the beginning. As far as 4 years at 90 mil...if Melo wants to keep Taj on the roster...then he knows what the pay will be. Its about him wanting to win.

Forman and Paxson have had a successful summer in my opinion. If Love wants to be here...why not do what Melo and Lebron did...force his way here?

 

[Xplosive]

How many of them were actually feasible? The Bulls did not have a lot of cap room,and trading away players for cap can be tricky and also risky.

Not having enough cap room in a year when you know big time free agents will be available is poor management. The Bulls had plenty of time and options available to make sure they could offer a max contract. Everyone knew a year ago that Melo would be opting out, Love was unhappy in Minny, and that Boozer was overpaid. This offseason wasn't a surprise and they should have been prepared.

Even if that could happen(which it wouldn't have), the Bulls would not be able to commit as money as the knicks could, (30+ mil less over 5 years). I don't see how this max deal would have changed much. Melo clearly liked the deal the Bulls had on the table but all in all, preferred to go back to the Knicks. That's what happened. Again, this isn't about GarPax. This is about Melo.

Only the Knicks could offer $26M per avg but every other team could offer $24M avg (which is what the Lakers offered) yet the Bulls could only come up with $16-18M? Money talks as we can obviously see from where he is today. You can say what you want about the Knicks never trading him because we will never know, but based on history of other top free agents getting traded, I don't agree with you.

Which was the best offer they could make.Let's get real, the Bulls weren't going to put a max deal on the table if they couldn't work it out before actually getting Melo to commit. Melo would get paid after the new TV contract anyways(because of the impending salary cap rise). I don't think he would be worried about that barring injury.

Why couldn't they put a max deal on the table if that is what it would take? With Boozer, Dunleavy, and Gibson gone the Bulls would have had enough for a max deal. Since no one cares about MDJ and Boozer all we are doing is giving up Taj for Melo and that's a fucking no brainer.

Mirotic can play as a 3/4 hybrid. He needs to build up some strength, but he is certainly capable of being a stretch four. He has the size and the floor spacing ability. I think he should primarily be a PF and fill in some minutes at SF.

With Noah, Taj, Gasol, Butler, MDJ, and DMC how many front court players do you need? Hopefully the Bulls will be the Spurs of the East and it all works out but the roster is imbalanced and too many players play the same positions.

Giving up a second round pick is nothing, and Randolph is not even an issue anymore. I don't know that I agree with trading 2 firsts for McDermott essentially, but he seems to be holding his own and he presents a very dangerous ability to create offense, especially from behind the 3 point line. The bulls need that. The jury is still out on him(and,of course, the others in his draft class), so it's hard for me to say how I feel about this. I wasn't very high on him on draft night, but I think he could starter quality

I disagree that 2nd rounders are worthless and the Spurs you like to reference would also disagree. 3 draft picks for McDermott and adding more worthless salary to the Bulls at a time when they should be making room for Carmelo is not a smart move. They took a huge gamble on Doug and the Bulls paid for him like he was a top 5 pick so we shall see if Doug turns out to be a star.

In order to make things easier for the ball handlers and shot creators, there needs to be good shooting and floor spacing. Having guys who can knock down shots is very important in the fourth quarter. It's not all about having a guy start playing hero and creating magical offense. Sometimes having nice spacing, ball movement, and knocking down some 3's makes all the difference in the fourth quarter. The San Antonio Spurs agree.

With Noah and Gasol, the bulls have two big men who can co-facilitate the offense and see to it that guys who can shoot will get the ball. They can also help Rose and Brooks, two capable shot creators, to get cutting opportunities to create offense.

I mentioned Brooks. You want a shot creator? Brooks is your man. Sure, he's off the bench, but he can come in the fourth quarter and be a spark plug. And he was at a good value.

In general, getting a shot creator can and will help on offense. But there are other things to consider, different approaches, different dimensions.

The Spurs beat the Heat because Tony Parker consistently got to the basket and Kawahi Leonard was a beast on both ends of the floor. I'm certain that Derrick Rose can duplicate Parker's performance, but can Jimmy Butler turn into Kawahi Leonard? Does Thibs learn to rotate his players to keep them fresh? Will Gasol+Noah stay healthy and turn into the defense and scoring of Tim Duncan/Splitter? Mirotic+DMC+MDJ can score but can they defend in the playoffs like Diaw+Green+Belinelli+Ginobli?

That's a lot of question marks and I would answer no to most of them. I admit I look forward to finding out who is right because we won't know until the season get here.

 

[Xplosive]

Who told you Love wasn't plan B? Just because they signed Gasol (time was of the essence in that situation) doesn't mean he took priority over Love. Based on supposed trade rumors, the Bulls have been more than willing to go after Love from the beginning. As far as 4 years at 90 mil...if Melo wants to keep Taj on the roster...then he knows what the pay will be. Its about him wanting to win.

Forman and Paxson have had a successful summer in my opinion. If Love wants to be here...why not do what Melo and Lebron did...force his way here?

Let me be honest, I wanted Kevin Love MORE than I wanted Melo. The same offer the Bulls are making to the T-Wolves now, could have been made a month ago... you know before LBJ joined the Cavs and made Cleveland more appealing than Chicago.


Signing Gasol means nothing. He's not the link to a championship and if the Bulls win this year he won't be the reason they do. If you have the opportunity to add true championship quality players to your team and you fail, how is this summer a success?

 

[Axl Rose]

Why couldn't they put a max deal on the table if that is what it would take? With Boozer, Dunleavy, and Gibson gone the Bulls would have had enough for a max deal. Since no one cares about MDJ and Boozer all we are doing is giving up Taj for Melo and that's a fucking no brainer.

i think they would have traded Taj if it came down to it....but they would have needed Melo to commit before they did which he never did

 

[Xplosive]

the 2 year deal was a great offer....we kept the team intact and Melo would only have to take a paycut for 2 years then reap the benefits of a huge cap increase...according to SAS Melo was heavily considering this offer

i dont know what other strong offer they could have made it was either trade S&T, trade Taj or Melo takes massive paycut

if he didnt want to take the risk of the 2 year option...he could have went to Phil and said he was gonna take the 2 year deal and i think Phil would have engaged in S&T talks

he was indecisive about what he wanted to do...if he would have been stern on his stance to go to Chicago he would have been here
------


Nikola is not a SF

How is taking a shorter deal for less money a great offer for a 30 year old player who could get a 4-5 year deal and more money. In two years Melo will not be a max player and if I'm his manager and business advisor I don't let him gamble that Reinsdorf and the Bulls will give him a $100M contract at the age of 32.

Basically you are saying the Bulls refused to offer the Max to Carmelo because of Taj Gibson. If that is the truth I rest my case and GarPax should be fired immediately.

 

[Xplosive]

Well assuming the bad contract you refer to was Randolph (and really...less than 2M is a bad contract?), that doesn't really matter anymore since he's now gone. Sending a 2nd round pick doesn't really matter much either imo since 2nd rounders rarely turn out to be good. In most cases, you'd package a couple mid to late 1sts to get a lotto pick without any questions asked. The only reason this is an "issue" is that we took McDermott, someone who wasn't real high on our lists going into the draft.

But at the end of the day, we'll have to wait out at least the season to see how well this pick pans out. Summer league doesn't say much, but thriving in summer league is definitely a better sign than sucking in summer league. Imo, his shooting ability will be very important to this team and I think we'll at least see the value of that this season. Shot creation is still up in the air.

Adding salary at a time when they should be making room for Melo shows that the Bulls were more serious about DMC than they were about Carmelo Anthony. Giving up 3 picks and taking salary back is what you do for a top 5 pick not the #11 pick. If Doug turns out to be a star it was a good move, if he's Kyle Korver the Bulls got raped and GarPax should be fired.

 

[Axl Rose]

How is taking a shorter deal for less money a great offer for a 30 year old player who could get a 4-5 year deal and more money. In two years Melo will not be a max player and if I'm his manager and business advisor I don't let him gamble that Reinsdorf and the Bulls will give him a $100M contract at the age of 32.

Basically you are saying the Bulls refused to offer the Max to Carmelo because of Taj Gibson. If that is the truth I rest my case and GarPax should be fired immediately.

no thats not what im basically saying...im under the impression Melo wouldn't have wanted to come here if we had to trade Taj

yeah there's certainly risk involved with the 2 year deal and thats probably why he didn't take it and opted to take the 5 year deal with NY instead

but if NY wasn't playing ball with a S&T and Melo didnt want Taj gone...thats the best offer they could have came with

 

[Xplosive]

no thats not what im basically saying...im under the impression Melo wouldn't have wanted to come here if we had to trade Taj

yeah there's certainly risk involved with the 2 year deal and thats probably why he didn't take it and opted to take the 5 year deal with NY instead

but if NY wasn't playing ball with a S&T and Melo didnt want Taj gone...thats the best offer they could have came with

Melo didn't want to come here without Taj???
Come on man, do you really believe that? So Taj Gibson the sixth man of the team is so important that the Bulls can't win without him and Melo would refuse to come here. I mean I know that was reported but its such garbage that I refuse to take it seriously. Carmelo approved the Knicks trading his best friend on the team (Chandler) but they want us to believe him and Taj are inseparable.

The Knicks were never going to say they would willingly do a sign and trade because it would make it appear they didn't want Melo, it was nothing more than posturing and what any other organization would say. Teams lie all the time about who they are trying to trade or willing to move, I guess you just believe what GM's say right until they do the complete opposite. That happens all the time.

The Bull should have made the same offer the Lakers made or something very close to it. Instead they made it more complicated and tried to act like they had no other option but to offer Melo $50 million less than the Knicks. That is bullshit that people feed into, the truth is the max the Bulls could have offered was $2M less per year and one less year than the Knicks could. In the end Melo signed with the Knicks for about $24M a year which is the same amount the Bulls could have offered him and didn't.

 

[Axl Rose]

while Taj is a role player the team is was considerably less attractive without him imo

but if they refused to trade Taj then i 100% agree with you and i think everybody else would too

anyway im so done with the Melodrama i dont even know why i engaged in this discussion

we didnt get him for whatever reason...oh well moving on

 

[clonetrooper264]

Adding salary at a time when they should be making room for Melo shows that the Bulls were more serious about DMC than they were about Carmelo Anthony. Giving up 3 picks and taking salary back is what you do for a top 5 pick not the #11 pick. If Doug turns out to be a star it was a good move, if he's Kyle Korver the Bulls got raped and GarPax should be fired.

OMG WE DIDN'T HAVE AN EXTRA 2M TO OFFER MELO BECAUSE OF THE TRADE WHAT LOSERS!

We still ended up with less salary after the trade...albeit only 300k, but this thing you're pushing about adding salary isn't entirely true. Also, 3 picks makes it seem worse than it actually is. IIRC, we gave up the worst pick between our 2nd and Portland's 2nd. Those are going to be like...55th overall. Who cares? You're blowing this trade a little out of proportion.

 

[Xplosive]

OMG WE DIDN'T HAVE AN EXTRA 2M TO OFFER MELO BECAUSE OF THE TRADE WHAT LOSERS!

We still ended up with less salary after the trade...albeit only 300k, but this thing you're pushing about adding salary isn't entirely true. Also, 3 picks makes it seem worse than it actually is. IIRC, we gave up the worst pick between our 2nd and Portland's 2nd. Those are going to be like...55th overall. Who cares? You're blowing this trade a little out of proportion.

Umm, $2M in cap space is the difference between offering $16M in the first year and $18M in the first year, it does make a difference. 3 picks is what it costs so you can try to claim that 2nd rounders are meaningless if you wish but feel free to google the list of 2nd round picks in nba history and its more impressive than you wish to imply.

The #16 and #19 in the 1st round are more than enough for the #11 pick not to mention taking back the extra salary. The Nuggets got everything they wanted because GarPax couldn't control themselves and let it be known how desperate they were to get McDermott. That's bad business and the only way it is acceptable is if McDermott turns out to be a steal who is much better than what the Bulls could have gotten with their own #16 and #19 pick.

For the record there have been tons of 2nd round picks that have been successful: Carlos Boozer, Paul Milsap, Toni Kukoc, Dennis Rodman, Monta Ellis, Marc Gasol, etc. Even later in the draft like Manu Ginobil the 57th pick. If the pick was so worthless why did the Nuggets want it? Don't try to lessen the fact that the Bulls gave up a boatload for McDermott, so that if he fails to be a star people can act like GarPax didn't get raped by the Denver Nuggets.

If Doug is a star, it was a good trade, but if he is a bust or they missed out on another star in a loaded draft then its one of the worst trades ever. If he is just average, its still a bad trade and another bad move for a front office that has a history of them.

 

[Axl Rose]

Randolph had nothing to do with us not getting Melo

11 counts as a pick so technically they only gave one 1st to make the other pick higher

so 1st and 3 2nds (Randolph cost 2 2nds to get rid of) is what it cost to get Doug

with how advanced scouting is these days its even more rare you'll find a real gem like a Manu in the 2nd round so im not really concerned with the 2nds

 

[clonetrooper264]

Umm, $2M in cap space is the difference between offering $16M in the first year and $18M in the first year, it does make a difference. 3 picks is what it costs so you can try to claim that 2nd rounders are meaningless if you wish but feel free to google the list of 2nd round picks in nba history and its more impressive than you wish to imply.

I am fully aware of the 2nd round picks that have been successful. One just signed a max contract with Dallas. However, 15 picks out of however many in the last decade isn't very high probability, even less so once you drop down into the 50s. Manu is the only I can think of in the last decade or so who was any good.

The #16 and #19 in the 1st round are more than enough for the #11 pick not to mention taking back the extra salary. The Nuggets got everything they wanted because GarPax couldn't control themselves and let it be known how desperate they were to get McDermott. That's bad business and the only way it is acceptable is if McDermott turns out to be a steal who is much better than what the Bulls could have gotten with their own #16 and #19 pick.

I see where you're coming from, but saying that McDermott has to be a star in order for the trade not to be a failure is a little much. Not saying that Kyle Korver is acceptable, but I'm pretty sure he's going to be at least that within this year alone. If he's a good player, I'd say the trade was worth it. Now if your boy Gary Harris ends up being a stud, I'll suck it up and admit defeat, but we just don't know yet. If he was so great, why did all those teams pass him up anyway? He was projected to be a lotto pick and almost fell to the 20s. Call for GarPax's head all you like, but you can't deny they have been pretty good with their draft picks for the most part.