Gas station shooting legally justified

Burque

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Umm.

1. Accidentally killing someone is better than executing them.

2. Yeah and ?

3. Getting sued for damages for injury is better than getting sued for damages for wrongful death. If he had shot the guy in the leg then not sure how the same cops that concluded the shooting was justified would have charged him instead. Also, not sure how an injury case would be more likely to succeed than the wrongful death case that the dude's family can bring against him.

4. In the scenario we are discussing with a slow moving drunk ******, it is unlikely. Further, it said he shot him once in the chest and then twice more when he kept coming. Ergo, if he had shot him in the leg, it could have prevented him from continuing to move forward since it's his leg and even if it didn't, then you can still shoot him twice in the chest. At least you give the ****** a chance instead of just executing him for being a ****** that in no real way threatened this guy's life.

5. The guy was a firearms instructor. The chances of him missing from that close is unlikely and as in 4 above, he still had time to fire two more shots to the chest so if he missed him and the guy kept coming instead of running away, pretty sure you had time to then shoot him in the chest. At least you give the ****** a chance instead of just executing him for being a ****** that in no real way threatened this guy's life.

I get the basic premise. That was not the scenario here. There are plenty of things that makes sense in theory that don't make sense in real life. I am not talking about any other scenario other than the one these two people find themselves in.
If we are talking about this situation in a vacuum he shouldn't have ever had to pull his firearm. I think we all agree there were multiple ways out of the situation that did not include shooting the "drunk ******" as you so eloquently put it.

Long before he shot him he should have defused the situation.

My point (outside of the vacuum) still stands that when you pull your firearm it is never too try to shoot someone in the leg, training is center mass x2 and head with the third shot. (I did misuse the word kill for stop or eliminate threat in my previous post.)

Anyway, I hope that none of us have to go through a situation like that ever. A lifetime of emotional trauma for making a decision.

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Burque

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Not in court...
That's true, but the ultimate point is that you never use that type of force until you are in true danger of dying.

The case we are discussing is highly suspect in that sense.

Yet, they felt he was endangered enough to defend himself with the force he did. Which could open doors for similar situations in the future.

The questionable portion of that situation is the amount of ways he could have defused the situation and chose not to.

The aggressor also didn't have a weapon. If they had argued it in court the size of the aggressor would have been a key fact.

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Burque

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Not in court...
Three shots to center mass or two center and one to the head is an attempt to kill. You can call it an attempt to stop or eliminate the threat, and the courts recognize the difference but let's be honest we are arguing semantics about the language not the reality.

When you cause three points of damage with a firearm the mortality rate skyrockets.

Whereas one or two points of damage does not stop or eliminate the threat effectively, three does.

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Monster

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Three shots to center mass or two center and one to the head is an attempt to kill. You can call it an attempt to stop or eliminate the threat, and the courts recognize the difference but let's be honest we are arguing semantics about the language not the reality.

When you cause three points of damage with a firearm the mortality rate skyrockets.

Whereas one or two points of damage does not stop or eliminate the threat effectively, three does.

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We aren't arguing... I agree
This guy is bad for business... He killed a man that should not have been.
 

remydat

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Remy... I don't agree with everything he said but it's always center mass... Shoot to stop.
Cops are trained, military are trained, CCP classes, all center mass
When the time comes to pull a trigger its for lethal force.
They teach center mass for a reason... under stress and adrenaline... You'll miss.
The military now teaches a three shot engagement, two center mass, one head due to PPE.
This case never needed lethal force... but once engaged it is center mass to stop the threat.
He said kill which is wrong... you shoot to stop... but only as an absolute final option.
You are right about law suits... You shoot a guy you're getting sued, live or die.
Best to find any option not too... in my opinion this guy was wrong... maybe not criminal under the law... but no one should have died in this incident.

Again, I understand the concept but I disagree with the application in this instance. The fundamental issue is that you are taking a military tactic and putting it in a civilian context. Center mass makes perfect sense in the context of a battlefield or war zone where you can be reasonably certain the person you are shooting at is a threat to your life because they are on the opposing side of a violent conflict.

In a civilian context where there is a lot of gray, you are basically militarizing people by giving them license to shoot to kill as if they are on a battlefield and things are black and white. And make no mistake, center mass to a civilian is most likely going to lead to death so calling it shoot to stop is just a euphemism for killing. Shoot to stop might make sense in a military context where your enemy may have body armour because they are a soldier but in the civilian context, it's pretty much shooting to kill.

That is the inherent contradiction in this theory when applied to civilians. You are telling me you teach people to shoot center mass because under stress and adrenaline, they might miss but ignore the fact that same stress and adrenaline will lead to people erroneously perceiving threats to their life where there are none and then shooting to kill to end that perceived threat. All you have created then is a self fulfilling prophecy where more people die due to avoidable gun incidents because you have given people the impression that it's ok to make poor decisions under stress and adrenaline. You also allow them to walk around freely with these guns with no requirement to train them on how to use that gun under stress or duress properly.

It's laughable. You spend millions and millions of dollars training soldiers to use their weapons properly when they are fighting foreign enemies but then allow civilians to walk around with a license to kill and absolutely no training on how to properly exercise that right. They have all the power and none of the responsibility so long as they perceived a threat.

So this is simple to me. You have a gun. The responsibility is yours to use only as a last resort. If you end up killing someone and can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the threat was lethal then you go to jail end of story. Otherwise, you will invariably continue to embolden people to acquire the power over life and death by buying a gun with no responsibility to use it wisely.
 

Monster

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I do and don't agree Remy... A gun is only to be used as a final option military or otherwise.
There is no leg shoot training... center mass... fire until down or empty.
I said in this case it was wrong.. on that we agree.
 

vincentvega

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I do and don't agree Remy... A gun is only to be used as a final option military or otherwise.
There is no leg shoot training... center mass... fire until down or empty.
I said in this case it was wrong.. on that we agree.

Yes me too. I think that if someone is going to shoot someone else then they should be shooting to stop or kill otherwise they shouldn't be shooting them in the first place. In this situation no one should have been shot. Having the gun (a.) on your person and (b.) so easily accessible, certainly increased the reality that this guy was getting shot. Add in a little bit of small man syndrome and those douchebag sunglasses and this was a recipe for disaster..




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remydat

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I do and don't agree Remy... A gun is only to be used as a final option military or otherwise.
There is no leg shoot training... center mass... fire until down or empty.
I said in this case it was wrong.. on that we agree.

And my point is, there should be to account for the fact people are fucking stupid. Civilians will make bad decisions with that power because there is no mechanism in place to ensure guns are only given to people that are responsible.

Further, I see no empirical evidence that instructing civilians to shoot unarmed people in the leg and then if they keep coming at you to shoot in the body is going to fundamentally lead to more deaths. If you have a gun and the other guy doesn't, you should have a greater responsibility.

Yes me too. I think that if someone is going to shoot someone else then they should be shooting to stop or kill otherwise they shouldn't be shooting them in the first place. In this situation no one should have been shot. Having the gun (a.) on your person and (b.) so easily accessible, certainly increased the reality that this guy was getting shot. Add in a little bit of small man syndrome and those douchebag sunglasses and this was a recipe for disaster..

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And the reality is a lot civilians aren't necessarily equipped to make those decisions in the heat of the moment. So this idea of shoot to kill or shoot to stop is being applied to a whole group of people without the requisite training and experience to make those snap decisions correctly. Most people will revert to instinct/muscle memory and you are teaching them the instinct/muscle memory of shoot to kill.
 

vincentvega

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And the reality is a lot civilians aren't necessarily equipped to make those decisions in the heat of the moment. So this idea of shoot to kill or shoot to stop is being applied to a whole group of people without the requisite training and experience to make those snap decisions correctly. Most people will revert to instinct/muscle memory and you are teaching them the instinct/muscle memory of shoot to kill.

No question about that. It is partly why I don't want to get a gun for myself. I don't want to be in a position where I am suddenly making a life or death decision for another human being under extreme duress or tension. I am not trained or smart enough to to make the right decision every time in that situation. Even people who are trained will often make a poor decision when you add the gravity of the situation to the equation.




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remydat

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Fair enough, I suppose we are in the same ballpark in terms of thought process. Just differ a bit on the fringes.
 

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