GDT - Blackhawks @ Islanders - 6:30 cst

[KBIB]

I think the more damning thing was the internal scouting that even made you consider passing on the layup of Byrum.

Mitchell, Boqvist, Beudin, Joker....

These guys had to bolster the D significantly to even consider trying to justify looking at the upside of the 3 6'4" centers available.

You think?

Kelly has the aura of “smartest guy in the room” and I’m just not buying the snake oil any more.

Cat was a no brainer. He never should have fell because of his size. He was fighting guys a foot taller then him in juniors and never backed down. That’s more a league wide face palm then Kelly being some astute judge of talent when Cat was playing with McDavid and produced at the same clip without him.

Saad was another no brainer. He was the Aaron Rodgers of that draft as everyone had him penciled in as a first rounder. I don’t remember but there might have been something about him wanting to go to college and that’s why he dropped. I do know there was a reason.

Tuevo was another guy who shouldn’t have fell.

I give him Shaw and Hagel. That’s pretty much all the impact players he’s drafted and I’m not bringing up the guys

IDK, Dach's trade value is not great for now, even if he doesn't develop too much more he should still be a valuable second-tier player for a competitive roster. I would hold for now.

The bigger problem is we have so little overall draft capital and under-valued contracts, so the GM's ability to nuke and reset this steaming pile of a roster is extremely limited and it will take years to accomplish.

no no no, Dach has a hell of a lot of value. Like two first round picks value if the Hawks take a shit contract with it.

Lottery picks? No, but for the next two drafts your looking at drafts 30 deep and around 60 deep in potential NHL players. The year after the next draft is going to be a draft for the ages.

If you trade Dach, your throwing in the towel. I just don’t see anybody doing that

 

[Granada]

Wut? We are focusing on media expectations? Who gives a shit about media spin, bottom line is he hasn't produced like a #3 pick should. In a re-draft today, Dach would not sniff the lottery. No one is calling him a bust so let's not move the goalposts, it was a stupid pick by a shite GM, that's all.

Most of us casual fans were pining for Byram as the selection as far as I can recall, and obviously Stan the Lesser pulled a Jerry Angelo on this roster.

For the past 3 years I predicted this team could not compete until 2023 at the earliest, but now I fear they may not do so until El Gato approaches 30 years old.

You're saying he wouldn't sniff the lottery today, but you're also saying you're not calling him a bust? Okay then...

It's pre-mature to call this a stupid pick. It could be, sure. I mean if the guy wasn't getting Grade-A chances the entire year, and if he was absolute shit along the boards and in all 3 zones, I'd probably agree with you. But he's getting excellent chances and he's solid in all 3 zones. It's not like the guy has zero talent, people need to relax.

 

[KBIB]

Dach wouldn’t be a lottery pick in a redraft.

I really think sending him to Rockford would do alot

 

[RacerX]

You're saying he wouldn't sniff the lottery today, but you're also saying you're not calling him a bust? Okay then...

Yes, that is precisely what I believe, these two statements are not conflicting.

Nylander was a lottery pick whomst is, at best, a fringe NHL player. He qualifies as a bust. He will not be signing another NHL contract when the current one expires.

Dach is a good hockey player that would have been great value in the 2nd round, but no one knowing what we know today would have drafted him #3 overall.

It's pre-mature to call this a stupid pick. It could be, sure. I mean if the guy wasn't getting Grade-A chances the entire year, and if he was absolute shit along the boards and in all 3 zones, I'd probably agree with you. But he's getting excellent chances and he's solid in all 3 zones. It's not like the guy has zero talent, people need to relax.

A draft pick can and should be evaluated at ALL times, there is no magical timeline before one can form an opinion based on interim results. Obviously with the passage of time one can make a more informed assessment, but I disagree that it's premature to say he hasn't produced and does not project like a #3 overall should.

Also, not sure where you heard anyone say that Dach has zero talent, I don't think it was in this thread.

 

[DaHawkz24]

Um… have you watched Cozens?

The kid has created a second line by himself. 14 points on a piss poor team while averaging 4 minutes less a game then Dach, who was gifted Kane and Cat, is a hell of an accomplishment.

Dach is a lot better along the boards then Cozens, but that’s it.

Jumping in here... I have not seen anything from Cozens or Byram, but was expecting one of them to be the pick.

I really have no complaints about Dach. I think he can be a 20+g 60+ point player. Faceoffs are a concern, but it's tough to improve on things like that with his injuries. I think the wrist was a problem before it broke, and he obviously wasn't as healthy as we thought for the few games last season.

 

[Granada]

Yes, that is precisely what I believe, these two statements are not conflicting.

Nylander was a lottery pick whomst is, at best, a fringe NHL player. He qualifies as a bust. He will not be signing another NHL contract when the current one expires.

Dach is a good hockey player that would have been great value in the 2nd round, but no one knowing what we know today would have drafted him #3 overall.

A draft pick can and should be evaluated at ALL times, there is no magical timeline before one can form an opinion based on interim results. Obviously with the passage of time one can make a more informed assessment, but I disagree that it's premature to say he hasn't produced and does not project like a #3 overall should.

Also, not sure where you heard anyone say that Dach has zero talent, I don't think it was in this thread.

Disagree that it's not conflicting and your argument is based in fantasy and hindsight. Quite simply, there is no freaking way Dach would have lasted until the 2nd round at the time he was drafted. Another team would have scooped him in a second. His development, at the time he was drafted, can't be rewritten. He was a logical high draft pick and probably would have gone 4th if the Hawks took Byram. Your argument is completely moot, and in a way, completely irrelevant if you look at the plethora of stud NHL players who have been chosen in the second round. So again, yes: it is premature to suggest he was not worth it yet.

 

[RacerX]

Disagree that it's not conflicting and your argument is based in fantasy and hindsight. Quite simply, there is no freaking way Dach would have lasted until the 2nd round at the time he was drafted. Another team would have scooped him in a second. His development, at the time he was drafted, can't be rewritten. He was a logical high draft pick and probably would have gone 4th if the Hawks took Byram. Your argument is completely moot, and in a way, completely irrelevant if you look at the plethora of stud NHL players who have been chosen in the second round. So again, yes: it is premature to suggest he was not worth it yet.

Pretty aggressive reply to a statement I never made nor implied nor believe. As far as I can recall, no one in this thread ever said or implied Dach would have fallen in the draft, you missed my point entirely but no worries.

 

[Granada]

Pretty aggressive reply to a statement I never made nor implied nor believe. As far as I can recall, no one in this thread ever said or implied Dach would have fallen in the draft, you missed my point entirely but no worries.

You said he would have fallen in the draft today, which again is based on hindsight, fantasy, and is a completely moot point (which I explained in my last post).

 

[RacerX]

You said he would have fallen in the draft today, which again is based on hindsight, fantasy, and is a completely moot point (which I explained in my last post).

I seriously doubt anyone else interpreted my original comment within the context presented as saying he would have fallen, you are forcing a narrative that simply doesn't exist, and to what end?

My quote: "Dach is a good hockey player that would have been great value in the 2nd round, but no one knowing what we know today would have drafted him #3 overall." Context is key, reread the entire post.

 

[Granada]

I seriously doubt anyone else interpreted my original comment within the context presented as saying he would have fallen, you are forcing a narrative that simply doesn't exist, and to what end?

My quote: "Dach is a good hockey player that would have been great value in the 2nd round, but no one knowing what we know today would have drafted him #3 overall." Context is key, reread the entire post.

I love when people play the "I didn't say that" game.

You said, "In a re-draft today, Dach would not sniff the lottery," and then you said, "Dach is a good hockey player that would have been great value in the 2nd round."

You're all over the place man. I usually enjoy your posts, but I think you're talking out of your ace on this one, and both sides of it to boot.

 

[RacerX]

I love when people play the "I didn't say that" game.

You said, "In a re-draft today, Dach would not sniff the lottery," and then you said, "Dach is a good hockey player that would have been great value in the 2nd round."

You're all over the place man. I usually enjoy your posts, but I think you're talking out of your ace on this one, and both sides of it to boot.

Yeah, normally I would drill down and again prove my point, and probably get testy at some point, but I respect you as a poster and accordingly will just chalk this up to a mutual misunderstanding and will drop it.

 

[Granada]

Yeah, normally I would drill down and again prove my point, and probably get testy at some point, but I respect you as a poster and accordingly will just chalk this up to a mutual misunderstanding and will drop it.

Fair enough. Sorry if I was ornery, didn't mean to direct that at you personally, just passionate about the issue. I'll do the same, cheers.

 

[Raskolnikov]

You think?

Kelly has the aura of “smartest guy in the room” and I’m just not buying the snake oil any more.

Cat was a no brainer. He never should have fell because of his size. He was fighting guys a foot taller then him in juniors and never backed down. That’s more a league wide face palm then Kelly being some astute judge of talent when Cat was playing with McDavid and produced at the same clip without him.

Saad was another no brainer. He was the Aaron Rodgers of that draft as everyone had him penciled in as a first rounder. I don’t remember but there might have been something about him wanting to go to college and that’s why he dropped. I do know there was a reason.

Tuevo was another guy who shouldn’t have fell.

I give him Shaw and Hagel. That’s pretty much all the impact players he’s drafted and I’m not bringing up the guys they traded

Passing on a top 4 blue liner took stones but the justification in both Dach and the rest of defense has dwindled on both ends.

 

[LordKOTL]

....

I give him Shaw and Hagel. That’s pretty much all the impact players he’s drafted and I’m not bringing up the guys

...

Point of Parliamentary procedure. If we're talking about who Stan DRAFTED, we can't include Hagel. Buffalo got him, and then failed to sign him. We technically got him as a free agent.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Point of Parliamentary procedure. If we're talking about who Stan DRAFTED, we can't include Hagel. Buffalo got him, and then failed to sign him. We technically got him as a free agent.

I’m still trying to figure out why we got rid of Hino and Suter for Tyler Johnson. Or Danult for a rental. Or Teuvo. Or Panarin.

 

[LordKOTL]

I’m still trying to figure out why we got rid of Hino and Suter for Tyler Johnson. Or Danult for a rental. Or Teuvo. Or Panarin.

Trying to address these each, with my best guesses:

I think we tried to get Tyler Johnson because Bowman the Beancounter loved his project players, and that Tyler Johnson's best career is better than Hino's and Suter's combined. He was on a downswing at the time.

Danault? Your guess is as good as mine, but again, I blame it on Bowman the Beancounter not being a hockey mind and possibly thinking that Fleishmann and Weise could have helped the 'hawks at that time, as opposed to Danault who was a future consideration. Keep in mind one of my major criticisms of the legume reckoner was that he completely failed to see the core aging out and the need to start the succession plan.

T² Was a sweetener to dump Bickell. We didn't know Bickell had MS at the time, and the 'hawks were looking at carrying approx $4M of dead cap in Bickell who was completely underwhelming in 2016 into 2017, and I believe the 'hawks were up against it cap-wise going into 2017. I get this move, but it turned out to be a net loss.

Panarin was a move I got at the time, but in retrospect was a horrible move. At the time, a lot of people thought that the issues Toews was having was due to quality of linemates, and not just his age progression. In 2017 Toews' numbers were very milquetoast, especially for a $10.5M player who should have been playing better. Meanwhile Kane was lighting them up like a $10.5M player should, and Panarin and Kane had some legit chemistry. However, Kane at the time proved he could produce with anyone, and there was some pressure to get Toews producing especially after the abysmal performance all of the 'hawks had in the 2017 playoffs where we got destroyed by Nashville. Toews and Saad had previous chemistry, Saad and Panarin had the same cap hit, and Saad was signed through longer, as well as Saad in his 1st Blackhawks stint dubbed "Mini-Hossa" since he was responsible in all 3 zones as opposed to Panarin who, much like Kane, was driven by offense--and Defense was an issue at the time especially from the forwards. It made some sense at the time. In retrospect, none of the retreads we've had worked well, Saad being one of them. He did not sparkplug Toews (who didn't really recover his game until 2019), his 3-zone play wasn't that good (definitely nowhere close to being mini-Hossa), and didn't do much for the team. Meanwhile Panarin started lighting the world on fire. Sure, keeping Panarin, we might have lost him sooner but we would have had a couple of years of him at the same cap Saad did, but I bet we could have sold him at the 2019 trade deadline for a king's ransom which could have helped the rebuild (Assuming of course we had a competent GM and not an H&RBlock Reject), as opposed to Saad for Zadorov for a 3rd rounder...which is what Brandon Bollig fetched.

In summary, don't try to figure it out beyond the fact that our previous GM was not a hockey mind and once the team Smith/Tallon built started aging he sucked the sweat off the balls of a brass monkey.

 

[KBIB]

Trying to address these each, with my best guesses:

I think we tried to get Tyler Johnson because Bowman the Beancounter loved his project players, and that Tyler Johnson's best career is better than Hino's and Suter's combined. He was on a downswing at the time.

Danault? Your guess is as good as mine, but again, I blame it on Bowman the Beancounter not being a hockey mind and possibly thinking that Fleishmann and Weise could have helped the 'hawks at that time, as opposed to Danault who was a future consideration. Keep in mind one of my major criticisms of the legume reckoner was that he completely failed to see the core aging out and the need to start the succession plan.

T² Was a sweetener to dump Bickell. We didn't know Bickell had MS at the time, and the 'hawks were looking at carrying approx $4M of dead cap in Bickell who was completely underwhelming in 2016 into 2017, and I believe the 'hawks were up against it cap-wise going into 2017. I get this move, but it turned out to be a net loss.

Panarin was a move I got at the time, but in retrospect was a horrible move. At the time, a lot of people thought that the issues Toews was having was due to quality of linemates, and not just his age progression. In 2017 Toews' numbers were very milquetoast, especially for a $10.5M player who should have been playing better. Meanwhile Kane was lighting them up like a $10.5M player should, and Panarin and Kane had some legit chemistry. However, Kane at the time proved he could produce with anyone, and there was some pressure to get Toews producing especially after the abysmal performance all of the 'hawks had in the 2017 playoffs where we got destroyed by Nashville. Toews and Saad had previous chemistry, Saad and Panarin had the same cap hit, and Saad was signed through longer, as well as Saad in his 1st Blackhawks stint dubbed "Mini-Hossa" since he was responsible in all 3 zones as opposed to Panarin who, much like Kane, was driven by offense--and Defense was an issue at the time especially from the forwards. It made some sense at the time. In retrospect, none of the retreads we've had worked well, Saad being one of them. He did not sparkplug Toews (who didn't really recover his game until 2019), his 3-zone play wasn't that good (definitely nowhere close to being mini-Hossa), and didn't do much for the team. Meanwhile Panarin started lighting the world on fire. Sure, keeping Panarin, we might have lost him sooner but we would have had a couple of years of him at the same cap Saad did, but I bet we could have sold him at the 2019 trade deadline for a king's ransom which could have helped the rebuild (Assuming of course we had a competent GM and not an H&RBlock Reject), as opposed to Saad for Zadorov for a 3rd rounder...which is what Brandon Bollig fetched.

In summary, don't try to figure it out beyond the fact that our previous GM was not a hockey mind and once the team Smith/Tallon built started aging he sucked the sweat off the balls of a brass monkey.

This is perfect but I’ll just add on a bit;

From what I recall they soured on Tuevo for not being dedicated to conditioning. There was something about the shape he was in that made it the justification for using him as a sweetener, which was dumb considering he was what, 20 years old and had god given gifts.

The Danault trade was a Q move. Nothing like a good old “we need vets for a playoff run” trade that back fired completely and honestly, I still say they make that trade again if they had a do over. Weise and Flechmann wernt bad pick ups for an overhauled fourth line, it’s just that both were playing above their skill set if memory serves me and I’m positive they didn’t have to give up Danault for them. Me thinks Q wanted his vets and Blowman found a couple and took the first offer because I highly doubt there was a bidding war for either of them.

And yes, Panarin never should have left Chicago.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Hawks have a decent chance to pull a who’d of thunk it sweep tonight.

Kunetsov out. Fleury in. Backstrom not yet in game shape.
It could be worse.

 

[Raskolnikov]

I like what coach is doing with creating balanced but purposeful lines. Special teams lines if you will that all have a primary job.
That keeps things simple. Just be yourself and fill your highest roles or balance out somebody else more important line so they can do their job while your special quality is needed to counter the way teams attack them.

if Strome and Dach step up this team can be hard to play against.

 

[KBIB]

I like what coach is doing with creating balanced but purposeful lines. Special teams lines if you will that all have a primary job.
That keeps things simple. Just be yourself and fill your highest roles or balance out somebody else more important line so they can do their job while your special quality is needed to counter the way teams attack them.

if Strome and Dach step up this team can be hard to play against.

With a Murphy/McCabe pairing, this team will never be hard to play against.

I don’t understand the fascination with stapling these guys together like the human centipede, but I sure as shit don’t want either playing with Seth and bringing him down a couple notches.

Murphy has made his Hawks career always being out of position and McCabe is too slow to keep up with a cycle. If this is the nu version of the Hammer/Oduya pairing just throw in the towel