Good to Know at least one Player the Cubs are Paying can hit MLB Pitching

[KBisBack!]

I specifically said it wasn't all him though for someone making $18 mil it was in large part him because he's one of the reason they don't have supporting hitters.

Bullshit.

The only reason they don't have supporting hitters is because the owner wants to make as much money as possible.

To try and claim that Soriano's contract was an albatross or held back the franchise in anyone is the definition of ignorance.

So for idiots to sit here and praise trading him for a shitty A ball level prospect while paying most of his salary improves the franchise is quite a bit more than a tad ridiculous.

 

[Shawon0Meter]

Soriano had 7 hits in his last 44 at-bats before this 2 game streak. These small sample sizes shouldn't change the way we feel about the Soriano trade. We've known what he's capable of positively and negatively.

I agree with both sides of the arguments in this thread tbh. I'm as frustrated as anyone else about being a fan of a team that doesn't care about being competitive. I also try to understand "the plan" and Soriano wasn't going to play any meaningful games in a Cubs uniform over the next year and a half because of "the plan".

 

[SilenceS]

Im glad Soriano is gone. Not because I don't want him on the Cubs because now he is competiting in meaningful games. He deserves to have a shot at a championship. The cubs are going nowhere. I thought they should have kept him, but I am ok with it. He was just wasting away in Chicago and still being blamed by Chicago fans for "The great fire of 1871". :elephant:

 

[KBisBack!]

May 4th - 2/3 2 HR and 4 RBI
July 2nd - 1/4 1 HR and 3 RBI
July 6th - 2/4 2 HR and 4 RBI
July 28th - 4/5 1 HR and 3 RBI
Aug 13th - 3/6 2 HR and 6 RBI
Aug 14th - 3/3 2 HR and 7 RBI

Total for those 6 games 15/25(.600) 10 HRs and 27 RBIs.
Total for the rest of the 403 AB's he's had? .233 avg, 14 HR's and 45 RBIs.

Anthony Rizzo...

April 26th - 3/4 2 HR and 4 RBI
May 6th - 3/4 1 HR and 4 RBI
June 5th - 2/6 0 HR and 3 RBI
June 23rd - 3/3 1 HR and 4 RBI
July 11th - 2/3 0 HR and 3 RBI

Total for those 5 games 13/20 (.650) 4 HRs and 18 RBIs
Total for the rest of the 432 AB's he's had? .213 avg 14 HR's and 47 RBIs

Yet somehow Soriano is useless and Rizzo was a tremendous pick up, right?

The cubs were 9 games under .500(22-31) in April and June when Soriano was terrible(.247, 4 HR's and 15 RBIs).

Let's not make Soriano out as some irreplaceable part.

The Cubs were 7 games under .500 (23-30) in April and June when Rizzo was at his BEST (.241, 10 HR's and 36 RBIs)

Let's not make Rizzo out as some irreplaceable franchise building block.

 

[Icculus]

All the detractors need patience? Right?

Said woman, take it slow. It'll work itself out fine.

 

[beckdawg]

He has never been a strong OBA hitter. He is paid to hit HR's. he does that in spurts. Less now that he is 37. But again if the team had A-Ram, Sori, Rizzo and Schierholtz Rizzo's slump (which is a glaring concern more so than a declining Sori/ Rizzo is the future and him slumping is a major concern). All I can say is look at the whole line up and see that LF was aged. 1B not proven. 3B and RF in platoons of back ups. That is why the team failed. Not Sori's production was... Come on now. And 18 mil? How about they spent around 50 mil on said back ups and trade chips. That was there also. 18 mil seems small compaired to that 50 mil wasted.

He's making $19 mil this year and playing at a rate probably worth $10 mil or less. The cubs need more than $9 mil in help but my point was that's another player if Soriano were payed equal to his performance. For example, Aramis is making $12 mil this year I think. So, you could roughly have a player of his caliber. Soriano is obviously being payed for past performance so I get it. All I'm saying is people bemoaning the loss of him are over exaggerating his value. I showed 2 examples of players who were signed this past off season for less than the money the cubs are saving by trading Soriano and who are putting up numbers similar to him. He's easily replaceable. And more than that, the guy is 38 years old so he has what 2 years at best left him?

Trading him gives you an A ball lottery ticket. It's similar to when they traded Dempster. Dempster is 36 I believe and wasn't a part of the future. So, they traded him for 2 lottery tickets and essentially signed Jackson who's arguably the same caliber of pitcher and only 29. I'd assume they are going to take that $6 mil along with some of their other free payroll and use it to sign a mid-tier FA like Choo to replace his production with someone who will be relevant over the next 4-5 years.

As I've said before, the only big trade they've made that matters over the next 3 years was Garza because he is relevant to the future.

 

[SilenceS]

He's making $19 mil this year and playing at a rate probably worth $10 mil or less. The cubs need more than $9 mil in help but my point was that's another player if Soriano were payed equal to his performance. For example, Aramis is making $12 mil this year I think. So, you could roughly have a player of his caliber. Soriano is obviously being payed for past performance so I get it. All I'm saying is people bemoaning the loss of him are over exaggerating his value. I showed 2 examples of players who were signed this past off season for less than the money the cubs are saving by trading Soriano and who are putting up numbers similar to him. He's easily replaceable. And more than that, the guy is 38 years old so he has what 2 years at best left him?

Trading him gives you an A ball lottery ticket. It's similar to when they traded Dempster. Dempster is 36 I believe and wasn't a part of the future. So, they traded him for 2 lottery tickets and essentially signed Jackson who's arguably the same caliber of pitcher and only 29. I'd assume they are going to take that $6 mil along with some of their other free payroll and use it to sign a mid-tier FA like Choo to replace his production with someone who will be relevant over the next 4-5 years.

As I've said before, the only big trade they've made that matters over the next 3 years was Garza because he is relevant to the future.

Soriano has a fWAR of 1.8 which is good for 33 best OF in the majors. Same as Carlos Beltran, Michael Bourn, Michael Cuddyer. Better than NElson Cruz, Josh Hamilton and a host of others. Soriano is not a core piece, but he was a player that wasn't blocking anyone and was the most feared hitter in the lineup. Soriano could easily hit 20 plus bomb for the next 4 years. His knees are the only concern. He hits homers with his hands and they are extremely strong. People may be over stating some things, but you are def. downplaying Soriano tremendously. Also, his value has nothing to do with it. He has performed almost to his contract according to fangraphs. Maybe a few million short before it is done. Cubs fans have complete misconception on the kind of player he actually is.

Also, his fWAR last year was 3.6. Good for top 20 major leaguer OF and 33rd in wRC+. Not bad for an over the hill 37 year old OF.

 

[SilenceS]

Also, I am pretty sure the Garza trade is going to come down to if Edwards can become him. If not, I feel the Cubs lost the trade. I didn't have faith in Olt before the traded for him and I still don't.

 

[patg006]

Ya that's like 9 major free agent signings... not chump change. And we bid pretty heavily on Cespedes, Puig and Capps.

FIelder would have been the 'major' free agent. CJ Wilson's 5 year 75 mil for a pitcher coming off back to back 18 win seasons with ERA's under 3 and 6+ strikeouts a game was the ballbuster. I really wanted that guy. Swish isn't major at 4 years 56.

Matt Capps signed a minor league deal under 1 mil. Lindstrom 2 million, McCarthy 7 mil a year,

seems your 9 is a bit misplaced, chief.

Oh thats a cool tidbit on Cespedes and Puig, do we get a trophy for coming up short in a bidding race?

 

[patg006]

I'm sorry I wasn't very active on these forums last week...?

That all looks good on paper, but if it was that easy, don't you think every team would have tried to get all of those same players? And succeed in doing so? There's other teams out there all striving for the same thing. We can't all get every single FA that we want. And there would be no guarantee of a WS either way.

So far good call on Puig and Cespedes, but we haven't even seen what Soler can do. It could very well be Soler ends up being better than both of them. But don't you dare root for him, you would just be a prisoner of the moment.

Sorry, we seemingly have this conversation every week. A certain group goes 'well what would you have done!?!' ANd we give out our plans (similar to mine) and the response we're used to receiving is 'theres no proof that's playoff worthy.'

Oh really, and when Soler tanks while Cespedes and Puig remain bosses in the league? Dont you dare well wish you coulda had one. I want players who are good now.

And a big 'i told you so' to the gentlemen (55, a few others) who in posts past told me Soriano never protected Rizzo in the line up, I called a major tanking......

 

[beckdawg]

Soriano has a fWAR of 1.8 which is good for 33 best OF in the majors. Same as Carlos Beltran, Michael Bourn, Michael Cuddyer. Better than NElson Cruz, Josh Hamilton and a host of others. Soriano is not a core piece, but he was a player that wasn't blocking anyone and was the most feared hitter in the lineup. Soriano could easily hit 20 plus bomb for the next 4 years. His knees are the only concern. He hits homers with his hands and they are extremely strong. People may be over stating some things, but you are def. downplaying Soriano tremendously. Also, his value has nothing to do with it. He has performed almost to his contract according to fangraphs. Maybe a few million short before it is done. Cubs fans have complete misconception on the kind of player he actually is.

Also, his fWAR last year was 3.6. Good for top 20 major leaguer OF and 33rd in wRC+. Not bad for an over the hill 37 year old OF.

I'm just trying to give the other side of the argument. Am I under valuing him? Perhaps. He's still 33rd in OF fWAR and making $19 mil which is roughly saying there's a player on every team better than him in the OF which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. But again, that's not really the point. He's not part of the long term plan. If they can save some money from him and in turn that into a player who can contribute to the long term plan along with picking up a lotto ticket, how is that not an upgrade?

If it is just a straight salary dump there's plenty to be mad about. But, as I said, I assume this is a prelude to them adding another bat in the off season and using the savings to make it cheaper for a frugal owner to stomach like they did in the case of Dempster.

 

[SilenceS]

I'm just trying to give the other side of the argument. Am I under valuing him? Perhaps. He's still 33rd in OF fWAR and making $19 mil which is roughly saying there's a player on every team better than him in the OF which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. But again, that's not really the point. He's not part of the long term plan. If they can save some money from him and in turn that into a player who can contribute to the long term plan along with picking up a lotto ticket, how is that not an upgrade?

If it is just a straight salary dump there's plenty to be mad about. But, as I said, I assume this is a prelude to them adding another bat in the off season and using the savings to make it cheaper for a frugal owner to stomach like they did in the case of Dempster.

You see Mike Trout. One day he is going to get paid huge money. Then, there will come a day when he is getting paid 20 plus million and 30 OFs will be better then him and most likely making less money. You cant compare money to other players. It is totally different circumstances and mean absolutely nothing. The Cubs also aren't a bottom 10 market team. They are probably a top 5 market still. Soriano contract is nothing compared to the money brought in and the money spent by the Cubs. Fuji and Baker combine for 16 million the next 2 years and Fuji little stint may be the only time either player see's major league time with the Cubs.

 

[SilenceS]

They have to add another bat in the offseason. The cubs do not have a 4th hitter for next year. They walk in without signing a Nelson Cruz or something then people should just stop watching them because Ricketts is out of control.

 

[KBisBack!]

I'm just trying to give the other side of the argument. Am I under valuing him? Perhaps. He's still 33rd in OF fWAR and making $19 mil which is roughly saying there's a player on every team better than him in the OF which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. But again, that's not really the point. He's not part of the long term plan. If they can save some money from him and in turn that into a player who can contribute to the long term plan along with picking up a lotto ticket, how is that not an upgrade?

If it is just a straight salary dump there's plenty to be mad about. But, as I said, I assume this is a prelude to them adding another bat in the off season and using the savings to make it cheaper for a frugal owner to stomach like they did in the case of Dempster.

No one has ever made the claim that Soriano is unreplacable and yet that is all what the slurpers are claiming that people are saying.

No one has ever said that Soriano is even a core piece, yet again the slurpers build their argument about that.

People have accurately and realistically stated that Soriano is the teams most productive hitter.

The 'savings' that the Cubs received by trading away their best hitter is about $6 million dollars.

Soriano might have been underperforming his $19 mil salary, but he is certainly outperforming a $6 million OF which is all the money the Cubs have to spend to replace them without increasing payroll which most are against.

 

[BillikenBear]

Ahh yes the franchise savior Anthony Rizzo.

The 24yo guy who is hitting .232???

The 24yo guy who among 1B who have enough AB's to qualify for the batting crown is ahead of only Mark Reynolds in BA? Behind even Adam Dunn?

The guy with the crappy .754 OPS behind such greats as Mitch Moreland, Brandon Moss, James Loney, Brandon Belt and Mike Napoli??

You pick out one stat of Rizzo's and want to whine about others cherry picking stats? Really?

Haha he was the one who brought up how Soriano was 2nd in HRs, so I reminded him who was 1st! Even if it was by just one and he has a lot more games as a Cub... I never said Rizzo is the answer to everything, but I do see him as part of the solution. But, if he doesn't figure it out and start improving next season he should be gone. We need more power bats and that can either come from FA or prospects I don't care which.

 

[beckdawg]

You see Mike Trout. One day he is going to get paid huge money. Then, there will come a day when he is getting paid 20 plus million and 30 OFs will be better then him and most likely making less money. You cant compare money to other players. It is totally different circumstances and mean absolutely nothing. The Cubs also aren't a bottom 10 market team. They are probably a top 5 market still. Soriano contract is nothing compared to the money brought in and the money spent by the Cubs. Fuji and Baker combine for 16 million the next 2 years and Fuji little stint may be the only time either player see's major league time with the Cubs.

People say they are a top 5 market but the thing is they don't have top 5 money to spend in FA because of the owners. I don't care if they make 5 trillion a year. If they have $100 mil in payroll that's all they have to work with. So, saving $6 mil on Soriano may seem like peanuts but it's 17% of what they had to spend all last off season and 43% of what they spent in 2012. That's not insignificant.

Also, I understand how contracts work. My point is he's not a part of the future. We both agree on that right? He is also over paid this year. The degree to which he is over paid is personal opinion but when you pay someone $19 mil a year you're expecting someone who's in the top 5-10 in MVP voting plain and simple not the 33rd best OF.

So, if he's not part of the future and you can replace him with someone who's pay is better reflective of how they are performing as well as being someone who can be part of the future, where's the down side? They get more money to improve the roster and maybe down the line the pitcher they got amounts to something. Maybe not. Doesn't really matter.

To put it simply, Soriano's 1 year value isn't really important. It's the 3-5 year value we're looking at. If the cubs were a playoff team this year then maybe you argue Soriano's 1 year value matters more than long term. But they aren't. And there are no signs that they are going to go out and spend like a top 5 market team in FA as evident in them trading Garza instead of re-signing him. They haven't the past 2 years. So, chances are high they won't be a particularly strong team next year either. As such, Soriano doesn't offer you as much value as someone who can play over 3-4 years.

I don't care about building for next year because I don't see any realistic scenario given their financial situation that they are a playoff team. I care about building for the next 3-5 years because I believe with good FA signings and prospect growth they can compete for a World Series. I'd like the cubs to have the money to spend like a top 5 market team but it doesn't appear they will. So, I'm being realistic.

 

[BillikenBear]

Sorry, we seemingly have this conversation every week. A certain group goes 'well what would you have done!?!' ANd we give out our plans (similar to mine) and the response we're used to receiving is 'theres no proof that's playoff worthy.'

Oh really, and when Soler tanks while Cespedes and Puig remain bosses in the league? Dont you dare well wish you coulda had one. I want players who are good now.

And a big 'i told you so' to the gentlemen (55, a few others) who in posts past told me Soriano never protected Rizzo in the line up, I called a major tanking......

It's fine and that's usually why I stay out of the Cubs forums haha. In truth, there's no proof it would be playoff worthy, but there's also no proof it wouldn't be. Its all just speculation and its all we can do for now.

Haha fair enough! But its OK bc Soler will be the NEW savior of the Cubs and the best player in the majors =)

 

[BillikenBear]

Im glad Soriano is gone. Not because I don't want him on the Cubs because now he is competiting in meaningful games. He deserves to have a shot at a championship. The cubs are going nowhere. I thought they should have kept him, but I am ok with it. He was just wasting away in Chicago and still being blamed by Chicago fans for "The great fire of 1871". :elephant:

Very true! He's always been a class act and I wish him the best wherever he goes.

 

[patg006]

Haha fair enough! But its OK bc Soler will be the NEW savior of the Cubs and the best player in the majors =)

Great, a hot headed, average player in Class A who hasnt played since April or May is the new savior.......

I wouldn't have been sardonic had you said Bryant. I think he and Baez have the best shot.....

 

[BillikenBear]

Great, a hot headed, average player in Class A who hasnt played since April or May is the new savior.......

I wouldn't have been sardonic had you said Bryant. I think he and Baez have the best shot.....

Haha same here. I actually think Soler has a better chance of not making it, but we were talking about Soler so... I remember the 5 prospects you said would pan out and I agreed with all of them I think. But I give all prospects the benefit of the doubt until they flame out of the majors.

Here's to Bryant and Baez, our NEWEST Cub saviors! =)