How Will The Younger Generation Vote In 2012?

[Tater]

This is what most anti-OWS types don't understand; it is not 10,000 jobless recent grads individually complaining about their predicament. It is rather a collection of 10,000 of those people complaining that there are 10,000 people in the same boat. In other words they are complaining that their issue is becoming a pandemic problem and affecting so many right now....So, what can be done from a national policy standpoint to alleviate that pressure? These OWS people are not all a bunch of idiot hippies. The movement was born from many people realizing that many people are facing the same problem. MASSIVE debt with no ability to pay it off. They didn't plan poorly, they didn't underestimate the risk they were taking. They might have been pushed into this model of institutionalized learning accompanied with future debt, but they still knew it was happening. What CHANGED is the job market. Too many people going to school, because the schools do a really good job marketing their service, and now not enough jobs to support those newly graduated.

First bold: Maybe they just voted for the people whose policies and czars made unemployment do nothing but go up.



Second bold: Oh really? Who "pushed" them into taking a loan?

 

[BigPete]

The whole student debt thing is ridiculous. They entered an agreement. Why should they be let out of their end of the bargain. It is called responsibility. I mean if they are going to let them out of student loans, let me out of my car payment, let me out of my credit card debit. I mean that's only fair.



Less protection of the stupid, please

The theory is that you invest in education rather than invest in business. Smarter people make better businesses, right? More money for a business to spend does not always make it a better business.



So if our country is all about business, then we should be giving money to people to go to school so that they can enter the workforce smarter and don't make mistakes that sink huge corporations that require bail outs so they don't collapse.



That is the thought process anyways.



As for IT in the university system; read my post, it isn't cheaper for a school necessarily. Brick and morter buildings require utilities, custodians, and teachers...but so do virtual classrooms. They still require space, equipment, maintainers, and the classes still require teachers. It is a trade off right now, not necessarily a lopsided financial equation that creates more profit or lowering operating costs for the universities.

 

[BigPete]

First bold: Maybe they just voted for the people whose policies and czars made unemployment do nothing but go up.



Second bold: Oh really? Who "pushed" them into taking a loan?

You really think they voted when they were 17 year olds planning to go to a school? NOT possible.



Who do you think encouraged/forced them to go to school at 17/18 years old? Their schools, their parents, society. It sounds hokey to you, but it is a reality.

 

[BigPete]

The whole student debt thing is ridiculous. They entered an agreement. Why should they be let out of their end of the bargain. It is called responsibility. I mean if they are going to let them out of student loans, let me out of my car payment, let me out of my credit card debit. I mean that's only fair.



Less protection of the stupid, please

I'm not sure that the movement wanted their base to receive a bail out. It was supposed to be framed as "invest in us, not the school (which is really just a business looking to make money off the social boob)." In other words, give us the money and let us pay the school with it. Not the other way around. My GI Bill money goes into my bank account. I 'earned it' but it is still a government sponsored educational benefit which makes my tuition null (almost). That is what the OWS movement wanted. Don't give directly to the business, ahem school, give it to me so I can decide how to best use it and not have a big bill later.

 

[TSD]

The thing thats interesting now is how close a public education is to a private now adays in cost. You are hardly saving money.



I remember in like 08 SIUE couldnt afford to pay their TA's and I just cant fathom how that happens. How is it these state schools get public funding, donations and tuition yet somehow have no money?

 

[R K]

So, maybe the bigger question is, why is a college education so expensive even with the invention of the internet and technology and the money being pumped into collegiate sports?



College and universities certainly do not appear to have been hurt by the downturn in our economy. Wouldn't you love to see the foundations and endowments set up on behalf of said institutions?

Add in the revenue they make from Athetics. At least the major Universities. It's a sham. And instead of teaching these students they must adapt to a society they fill their heads full of dillusions there are actually jobs out there in certain fields, when in fact there arent.



Todays student must ADAPT and change their Skill Set to accommodate the economy.

 

[R K]

Damn, Pete. Good post that I mostly agree with.



And, as I already pointed out: No matter what kind of bill goes unpaid, student loan, car loan, credit card bill, mortgage, hospital bill.........the collective pays for it whether we want to, or not. I personally think student loans should be included in bankruptcy, especially if they are private loans, not protected by the government.

100% dead on. And if this were disected by our Politicians, working for the "People" all area's would improve. No Left vs. Right, just fix the fucking GLARING problems. It's not as some would say ROCKET SCIENCE, but few are willing to stick their neck out to correct the problems.

 

[R K]

IF the government were to be involved in the assistance of subsidizing college educations, and that is a big IF from me, I would rather see them assist in the cost in certain academics such as the cost of educating a general practioner. I don't think it is appropriate to reward others after the fact based upon their cirumstances at the time.

They were at some point. Pell Grants, Stafford Loans, ect.. ect... The Government paid for a good part of my education. Thus I've paid the Government back two fold.

 

[R K]

The thing thats interesting now is how close a public education is to a private now adays in cost. You are hardly saving money.



I remember in like 08 SIUE couldnt afford to pay their TA's and I just cant fathom how that happens. How is it these state schools get public funding, donations and tuition yet somehow have no money?

State Schools getting funded State Money? How much money do you think IL owes schools of all kind? They are 8 billion in the hole. Not that I'm defending the schools, because they cry wolf and raise tuition at their whim. And that example is only IL when tution accross the board has increase more than our Hawks ST's in some cases.

 

[jaxhawksfan]

Ok, so I am ignorant on a subject and I am hoping you folks on here can help me. I see many posts that talk about public vs. private university costs and education on here from many of you. Is there really a big difference in the education? Are you trying to tell me that my University Of Florida education somehow doesn't stack up because the school is a state school? Honest question. I don't know what people think when they read my resume. I don't know that a school name matters. I have the belief that a degree is generally a degree, unless it is from the preeminent school in a particular area. Same with GPA, some employers have asked, but do they really care?

 

[IceHogsFan]

They were at some point. Pell Grants, Stafford Loans, ect.. ect... The Government paid for a good part of my education. Thus I've paid the Government back two fold.

Exactly. This is a subsidy that in the end the government is rewarded by that same individual making a higher income and paying more in income and sales tax. They win in the end but unfortunately, in todays world the government tends to take a good idea or purpose and making it into some large federal institution with too many regs and too much money to enforce.

 

[IceHogsFan]

State Schools getting funded State Money? How much money do you think IL owes schools of all kind? They are 8 billion in the hole. Not that I'm defending the schools, because they cry wolf and raise tuition at their whim. And that example is only IL when tution accross the board has increase more than our Hawks ST's in some cases.

And if the those same schools had the $8 billion that they are owed the costs would not rise like that have, correct?



One of my earlier posts was trying to imply that secondary education is archaic in its approach and even cost. The schools themselves with their costs and not to mention the salaries, benefits, pensions of those schools have to be ridiculous in todays world costs. We complain about our state employees but I would venture to say that the same cost concerns with state government apply to our colleges and universities.

 

[R K]

Ok, so I am ignorant on a subject and I am hoping you folks on here can help me. I see many posts that talk about public vs. private university costs and education on here from many of you. Is there really a big difference in the education? Are you trying to tell me that my University Of Florida education somehow doesn't stack up because the school is a state school? Honest question. I don't know what people think when they read my resume. I don't know that a school name matters. I have the belief that a degree is generally a degree, unless it is from the preeminent school in a particular area. Same with GPA, some employers have asked, but do they really care?

I guess it both depends on the institution and also what they do with the funds they are recieving. I've never bought that an ivy league scool gives one ANY better education verses the Public University, although employers do look at them differently. Although in todays economy if I'm hiring someone I tend to look at experience to be the difference between resumes.



If you give me two candidates, one graduated from Harvard, and the other University of Illinois, does it make a difference, it depends what the "experience" of the two candidates have. I would tend to chose the one with the experience, over the more touted University.



College teaches an individual one thing thats paramount in learning. Communication Skills. With those, no matter what field you study, you can succeed in almost anything you do.

 

[R K]

And if the those same schools had the $8 billion that they are owed the costs would not rise like that have, correct?



One of my earlier posts was trying to imply that secondary education is archaic in its approach and even cost. The schools themselves with their costs and not to mention the salaries, benefits, pensions of those schools have to be ridiculous in todays world costs. We complain about our state employees but I would venture to say that the same cost concerns with state government apply to our colleges and universities.

I don't know if I agree with that. I would stand up either degree I recieved to anyone, from any other University. That school taught me how to be successful in life. It taught me how to adapt and use my skills and or how to learn new skills if the ones I had were not good enough.

 

[jaxhawksfan]

Ivy league schools aside, I'm speaking more at the state level. Florida happens to have some fantastic state schools as far as the education goes. The state also has some private schools such as The University Of Miami, Stetson University and The University Of Tampa. In my ignorance I don't see that any of the private schools have a better name than the state schools. There are a couple private schools which are indeed destinations for certain fields such as Embry-Riddle and Full Sail University, and if you are seeking training in those fields which those schools support then by all means, attend those schools.



If I am understanding IHF correctly I agree with him. The cost of education nowadays has far outpaced the quality. I don't really care what your major is right now, technical schools are probably the better route to go in order to get a job/career. The standard B.A or B.S isn't really getting you a job right now.

 

[BigPete]

A major difference between a 'state school' and an 'ivy' school is the access to successful people that the ivys have over the states. Successful, important people like CEOs of Fortune 500s or former politicians (like Newt) want BIG MONEY to come and teach a class or speak at a school. That is a major difference. Can the ivy pay the very successful NYC lawyer or finance guru enough to come talk about their field? Yes. Can a state school, hell to the no.

 

[jaxhawksfan]

A major difference between a 'state school' and an 'ivy' school is the access to successful people that the ivys have over the states. Successful, important people like CEOs of Fortune 500s or former politicians (like Newt) want BIG MONEY to come and teach a class or speak at a school. That is a major difference. Can the ivy pay the very successful NYC lawyer or finance guru enough to come talk about their field? Yes. Can a state school, hell to the no.

I think you were typing at the same time I was. I wasn't talking about Ivy League schools.

 

[Tater]

I'm not sure that the movement wanted their base to receive a bail out. It was supposed to be framed as "invest in us, not the school (which is really just a business looking to make money off the social boob)." In other words, give us the money and let us pay the school with it. Not the other way around. My GI Bill money goes into my bank account. I 'earned it' but it is still a government sponsored educational benefit which makes my tuition null (almost). That is what the OWS movement wanted. Don't give directly to the business, ahem school, give it to me so I can decide how to best use it and not have a big bill later.

Then why aren't the occupiers protesting the schools that "are given" their money?

 

[BlackHawkPaul]

So, maybe the bigger question is, why is a college education so expensive even with the invention of the internet and technology and the money being pumped into collegiate sports?



College and universities certainly do not appear to have been hurt by the downturn in our economy. Wouldn't you love to see the foundations and endowments set up on behalf of said institutions?

The educational fields are booming. The economy is in a downturn, so many people are resorting to getting an education.

The middle class is going to school in record numbers. With so many jobs going overseas or closing down due to skill sets, people need to make money somehow.



I don't see the internet as a way of lessening costs on college. I'd love to hear examples. I took an online writing course at DePaul. It cost me the same as if I would have attended in person, but I also feel that I got gipped due to the fact I was at home on my CPU, and not in an environment in which I could interact with my classmates/professor.



I also work at a medical university, and one of the constant arguments is bringing certain education on-line. It works for some fields, not for all. I don't think we want our future doctors/physical therapists learning hand-on training via the internet. Just doesn't work that way. Having simple information does. Also, the university I work for doesn't benefit from sports programs. Many don't. Some of the larger D1 schools will get a windfall from college sports, but you have to look between the lines, especially the criminals that run the college bowls (disguising the bowls as charities-HBO ran a special about that subject--PBS also ran a special about for-profit colleges. I suggest everyone watch both).



College is big business. What has evolved over the last 20 years in certain fields to justify the bloated costs. It would be interesting to delve into that subject.

This is what most anti-OWS types don't understand; it is not 10,000 jobless recent grads individually complaining about their predicament. It is rather a collection of 10,000 of those people complaining that there are 10,000 people in the same boat. In other words they are complaining that their issue is becoming a pandemic problem and affecting so many right now....So, what can be done from a national policy standpoint to alleviate that pressure? These OWS people are not all a bunch of idiot hippies. The movement was born from many people realizing that many people are facing the same problem. MASSIVE debt with no ability to pay it off. They didn't plan poorly, they didn't underestimate the risk they were taking. They might have been pushed into this model of institutionalized learning accompanied with future debt, but they still knew it was happening. What CHANGED is the job market. Too many people going to school, because the schools do a really good job marketing their service, and now not enough jobs to support those newly graduated.



This comment is much more germain to the conversation: The schools are raising tution to ridiculous levels because the states are cutting off funding sources that had overflowed with money during the good years of the wartime, tech, and housing booms. Blame the university chancellors who couldn't see past their noses to realize that the meteroic rise in the economy wasn't going to last forever. They should not have been racheting up salaries and buying all kinds of new things for the university on credit. Those bills are coming due, those salaries are not going to reverse (because that almost never happens in America, layoffs happen instead). Now there is little to no state assistance to foot the bills. The schools fooled themselves into thinking the state funding would always be there. Now states like Illinois are saying, "you really are a for profit business, who are you kidding. Plan your budgets better and don't live off the social teet!"



As for those that think online courses should lower institutions's logistical costs conveniently ignore the costs of running an IT infrastructure that can support online courses. IT is NOT cheaper. The only saving is that one full time professor can now manage an extra class or two because they really can be in two places at once now...but they are stupid for doing it because they are getting paid the same to do more work.

You bring some very good observations to the table.

I don't know if I agree with that. I would stand up either degree I recieved to anyone, from any other University. That school taught me how to be successful in life. It taught me how to adapt and use my skills and or how to learn new skills if the ones I had were not good enough.

What would be better is to stand yourself up to the same people who received the exact same degrees, and see if their life choices benefitted the education they received compared to you. Universities will pump out thousands of teachers at the end of 2012. Which ones really deserve that degree? The oldest joke in the book is: What do you call a person who graduates last in medical school? Doctor.

 

[BiscuitintheBasket]

They were at some point. Pell Grants, Stafford Loans, ect.. ect... The Government paid for a good part of my education. Thus I've paid the Government back two fold.

This.



Though I have not quite paid the gov't back two fold with all of the DOD education money I got...well actuall probably did but in other ways.