Is Burton worth the money?

WindyCity

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I, respectfully, disagree with this. I just have a gut feeling that Gabriel will be underwhelming. He's going to have some boom weeks and a lot of bust weeks. I think Miller's skillset paired with the vaunted Naggy offense will have a much better rapport with Bitchell and his skillset. JMHO, IMO.

What is a bust week for Gabriel look like?

I could care less how many catches he has. His most important job is to make a safety stay deep and a CB turn his back and start running right away.

His value will not be on the stat sheet. His value will be in going deep so Trey Burton and Anthony Miller can get on the stat sheet.
 

Penny Traitor

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Miller looks like a stud. Honestly given the choice of having to release him or Gabriel tomorrow, would anyone keep Gabriel?
Not a fair question. I just said Gabriel will have the better season...not career. So of course I keep the rookie for the Long Term Plan.
 

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What is a bust week for Gabriel look like?

I could care less how many catches he has. His most important job is to make a safety stay deep and a CB turn his back and start running right away.

His value will not be on the stat sheet. His value will be in going deep so Trey Burton and Anthony Miller can get on the stat sheet.

Pretty much what a bust week looks like for any WR. Couple catches for minimal amount of yards. If Gabriel's true role in this offense is to keep the safety deep then that's fine, but I think that means Miller has a more productive season assuming he is as good as advertised.
 

Midway Fields

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If he hasn't done squat (which I agree with) and has bad numbers, why do you like him?

I like him because when Zach Ertz was hurt, Burton stepped in and there was no dropoff in production from the TE position for the Eagles. Burton definitely flashed when he got starter snaps. He is young and shows good hands, explosiveness, and athleticism. Typical for TE's coming out of Florida in recent year.

I keep seeing you say the Bears offense is not going to be a copy of the Chiefs offense. But considering the investment the Bears have made in the TE position with giving Burton big $ and keeping the not so cheap Dion Sims after taking Shaheen last year, it is clear the TE will be a huge focus in the Bears offense.
 

Noonthirtyjoe

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Not sold on vets like Gabriel and Burton that have shown they can produce in the NFL, but all in on a rookie receiver taken in the second round of a weak draft class.

Neither has produced much. Both were small role players. One had bad third string numbers. I think Miller will be a very good.
 

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What is a bust week for Gabriel look like?

I could care less how many catches he has. His most important job is to make a safety stay deep and a CB turn his back and start running right away.

His value will not be on the stat sheet. His value will be in going deep so Trey Burton and Anthony Miller can get on the stat sheet.

If that’s all you care aboot with Taylor Gabriel and not actual production, Dionte Thompson/Josh Bellamy/Tarik Cohen could have accomplished the same exact thing. Gabriel is being paid to make plays.
 

rawdawg

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I understand the "Burton hasn't produced" argument. But this is where you do damage as a GM in free agency. Typically 2 things happen with players who show they can produce in the NFL.

1) the team that has them doesn't let him go until they get old.
2) the team that signs him overpays and the player is not worth that contract as he ages.

So, you have to hit on the mid-tier FA signings. Guys that had lesser roles for other teams, you have to count on in bigger roles on your new team. These are guys like Martellus Bennett, McPhee, Willie Young, Akiem Hicks, etc.

The thing I like about Burton is that he has produced when Ertz has been out. Burton was raw and undersized coming out of college. He was a QB, RB, HBack at Florida, and the Eagles frankly barely used him. Ertz is a top 5 TE in the league, so he's not a slouch. But when Ertz has missed, here are Burton's stats:

Week 9, 2017- 2-41, TD
Week 14, 201- 5-71, 2 TD
Week 2, 2016- 5-49, TD (Vs Bears)
Week 3, 2016- 2-19 (this was a 31-3 win where the Eagles only threw 5 times after opening the 2nd half with a 73-yard screen to Sproles)
Week 12, 2015- 2-49 (his only catches of his career up to this point, only caught 1 more this season)
 

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I'll throw this in the Burton thread instead of starting a new thread.


I Still Believe in Adam Shaheen

Possibly lost in the influx of new weapons, Adam Shaheen still has a chance to validate Ryan Pace’s selection of him in the second round of the 2017 draft.
By Josh Sunderbruch May 30, 2018, 5:00pm CDT
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Aaron Doster-USA TODAY Sports
I was a fan of Adam Shaheen heading into the 2017 draft. I felt that he would be a good pickup in about the third round, and I wondered if he had the sort of talent to turn into a steal with just a bit of development. Thus, when Shaheen was taken 45th overall, I felt it was a reach, but I also felt like it was a reach that might turn out okay.

Now, a year later, I still have hopes for the tight end from Ashland.

What I am not worried about

First, I have to state up front that I do not consider playing time under the last regime to be any meaningful indicator of a player’s talent. Loggains and Fox had Jordan Howard buried on the depth chart behind Jeremy Langford, and John Fox clearly had old school beliefs about playing time and younger players. It is possible that Adam Shaheen’s very limited snaps were an honest indication of his talent and potential. However, it is also at least as likely that Loggains and Fox were mistaken in their estimations of what Shaheen had to offer.

Second, I do not see the acquisition of Trey Burton as any sort of judgment by Nagy and Company on Shaheen’s potential. Good offensive teams frequently have multiple, dynamic tight ends, and Ryan Pace has a tendency to throw multiple efforts at filling a position. He in fact seems to acquire players based on their individual merit instead of on how they fit together as a team, so picking up Burton does not necessarily mean that a verdict has been passed on the second-round draft pick of 2017.


A new friend: Getting acquainted with Trey Burton
Finally, I am not worried about Shaheen’s drops and stumbles. I have read comments from a few fans who seem to believe that Shaheen walked out onto the field after coating his fingers in grease or something. Seven tight ends drafted in 2017 had enough playing time to earn a positive AV from Pro Football Reference last season, and of those seven Shaheen had the highest catch rate (86%) by a decent margin, though admittedly the second highest (George Kittle at 68%) had a much greater volume of catches. Did Shaheen have some rough patches? Yes. However, they were a proportionally small number of his overall plays.

What I am encouraged by

So, everyone sees different things when a player walks onto the field, and we tend to reinforce our own biases. One of the first pieces I ever wrote for Windy City Gridiron was a fan post on why the famed “Eye Test” fails. I think it’s way too easy to see what we expect to see.

When I watched Shaheen play, I saw a decent athlete use his body in traffic to try to make plays. I saw a young man in a bad offense do a decent job to take advantage of the opportunities given to him, even though those were limited. Others saw a bust, a Division II athlete playing out of his league, and a limited player. The stats themselves are of limited value, because of the small sample size, but they aren’t terrible.

Shaheen only played 239 snaps on offense. By comparison, of the six other tight ends to earn at least AV 1 last season, only Gerald Everett (drafted one spot ahead of Shaheen) had fewer than 500 snaps. Everett’s 297 snaps resulted in 32 targets and 16 receptions (a 50% catch rate); they also resulted in 244 yards and 2 touchdowns. With a lower catch rate and comparable snaps, Everett did much better in terms of producing yards. However, another way to look at it is with fewer snaps and less than half as many targets, Shaheen got more than half as many yards and even more touchdowns.

Shaheen was sixth in terms of yards earned per snap (his draft position was fifth), and almost every other rate statistic (yards per snap, receptions per snap, and so on) lines up more or less with his draft position as well. The real exception is his touchdown rate, which is unusually high (3 touchdowns in just 239 snaps is remarkably high when every other player with 4+ was in on at least 500 snaps).

So, my eyes tell me Shaheen made the most of limited opportunities. That stats themselves back this up, with an important caveat--Shaheen is at the trail end of what was considered a historically strong draft class for his position, and he more or less played like that. He was not as good as the first-rounders even on a per-snap basis, but he was comfortably in the same league as the other successful players drafted after the first round.

What I want to see

Obviously, if a second coaching staff doesn’t think Shaheen is worth playing, the verdict will be in. Shaheen is now competing with free agents from two different years in Dion Sims and Trey Burton. However, neither of those players have had 40 receptions or 350 yards in a season, yet. If Shaheen cannot challenge them and fight his way to the #2 tight end spot on the roster, then the verdict is probably in on him. However, if he can put together a bid for the #2 spot, then it’s possible that Shaheen will turn out to be a pleasant surprise in 2018. Even if he falls to #3 due to scheme but still manages to be more than a Special Teams player (if, say, he more than doubles his number of snaps and increases his rate production at the same time), he has the potential to be another example of a reach who worked out.

For now, however, I hold out hope that he’s going to surprise people in 2018 by turning into a solid weapon for Mitchell Trubisky in Matt Nagy’s new offense.
 

Bear Pride

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I don't think I'll ever get to say this enough, but people need to remember that this is not going to be a photocopy of Andy Reid's offense in KC. Obviously it will be influenced by that, but it will be Nagy's own playbook with plenty of input from Helfrich. It seems like almost everyone is assuming that he's just going to run the KC offense in Chicago. That won't be the case.

I am surprised to hear this from you. I am definitely on board with "your point". So much so, I've made several post's about, what I believe is going to be the best 'Nagy/Helfricth" wtf is going on Offense this year so far, is going to be a great new attacking offense moving forward!
 

WindyCity

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If that’s all you care aboot with Taylor Gabriel and not actual production, Dionte Thompson/Josh Bellamy/Tarik Cohen could have accomplished the same exact thing. Gabriel is being paid to make plays.

In addition of course

But Thompson and Bellamy are not actual threats to make plays. You need speed with some sembelence of abikity.
 
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I don't think I'll ever get to say this enough, but people need to remember that this is not going to be a photocopy of Andy Reid's offense in KC. Obviously it will be influenced by that, but it will be Nagy's own playbook with plenty of input from Helfrich. It seems like almost everyone is assuming that he's just going to run the KC offense in Chicago. That won't be the case.

Nagy would be a fool if he & Helfrich don't throw in alot of their own wrinkles In a league were you really want to keep a step ahead & keep opponents guessing. Like you stated Nagy will need some proven "here it is-hit it" tried & true type strategy that's good enough to beat opponents with whether opponents see it coming or not.

Whatever they do, I really hope they pick it up quick, IMO its just good for football when the league can chalk up the Bears as contenders along with the list of usual suspects.
 

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