Is Fred really this dumb?

[JeffH1215]

I don't really come to the message boards here, I just listen to the podcasts, have been for a couple years. But I had to create an account to make a post in hope to get Fred to stop his argument about free agency because it is getting really annoying. I am referring to his theory that the Bulls don't have the assets to do a sign in trade. So Fred, this is how it works, Chris Bosh gets to choose which team he wants to go to, not the Raptors. Now if the team doesn't have cap space then they NEED to do a sign in trade and NEED good assets or the Raptors can say no. If the team does have the cap space, Da Bulls, then he can sign with them without a sign a trade. Then the Bulls can workout a sign in trade with the Raptors to get that 6th year. And since the Raptors just lost Bosh for nothing, they will take anything from the Bulls for the 6th year. The Bulls could offer anything from Deng or next year's first round pick or a 2nd round pick, and the Raptors will take it because if they don't, they get nothing for Bosh. The Bulls don't have to give up Noah, they don't have to give up anything, once Bosh signs with his new team, the Raptors have no more leverage and will take anything for the 6th year.

If you still disagree, go ask Doug, he seems to be the only one of the podcasters that really knows what he is talking about. Mark has been disagreeing with you about this, but his reason being that the Raptors would want Kirk is Special person. No one wants Kirk, for good reasons, I am 100% behind everything you have ever said on the podcast about him.

Go find some previous sign in trades where the player was an unrestricted free agent and you will see what I mean. I sure you remember last year when your hero and man crush, Gordon, was signed by the Pistons, after it was announced they signed him, Doug brought up the fact that we could still try to get a 2nd round pick from the Pistons in a sign in trade so the Ben could get his 6th year on the contract. Of course it never happened, probably because Bulls management didn't want to help Gordon and the Pistons out.

Now this doesn't mean we are getting Bosh, I'm just saying that the only thing that matters, is if Bosh wants to sign here or not. That goes the same for every other free agent.

So please Fred, find a new argument as to why you think we aren't going to land a free agent.

 

[mlewinth]

YES! Fred really is this dumb.

 

[TheStig]

I think Bosh really wants to cash in this offseason. Otherwise an S&T wouldn't be a priority for him. He really wants those extra 30 Mill. The only way he is going to get them and out of Toronto is with through the raptors. Why would the raptors help us if they aren't getting anything? That being said I don't think it will come to Noah but Taj or JJ and a first wouldn't be unrealistic.

 

[mlewinth]

Ok, Jeff. I couldn't let you get away with this one, because your being a bit of a Special person here. Bosh via sign and trade can go wherever he wants. Teams have to match his salary though (to 25%), which is tough when your making $18 mill per. If Bosh really wants to come to Chicago, we have significantly more flexability in what we can do via a sign and trade because we are way under the cap, so the 25% rule doesn't apply. All I am saying is we could get Bosh and give up a low salaried player like Joakim Noah, whom I am sure the Raptors would want for both his skill and his contract, or we could trade a guy like Kirk, who makes a fraction of what Bosh makes and absorb the rest of Bosh's contract (not saying the Raps will go for that, I am just saying it's an option). If the Raptors are aggressive though and see that Bosh is leaving (which they will be if he wants to leave), Toronto will go out and see what their options are. I don't see them wanting to take back a Bosh-like contract (or a batch of contracts), but you never, know. Are the odds still that we wont get a top tier FA...yes, but we are in a better position than most to get one.

Also, don't use Ben Gordon as the benchmark for how these things normally work. We let BG walk cause we didnt want to take on additional salaries. We wanted to be able to sign a top tier FA. Toronto is NOT in the same position as we were in when we let BG walk. Keep that in mind.

 

[WearShades]

JeffH1215 wrote:

I don't really come to the message boards here, I just listen to the podcasts, have been for a couple years. But I had to create an account to make a post in hope to get Fred to stop his argument about free agency because it is getting really annoying. I am referring to his theory that the Bulls don't have the assets to do a sign in trade. So Fred, this is how it works, Chris Bosh gets to choose which team he wants to go to, not the Raptors. Now if the team doesn't have cap space then they NEED to do a sign in trade and NEED good assets or the Raptors can say no. If the team does have the cap space, Da Bulls, then he can sign with them without a sign a trade. Then the Bulls can workout a sign in trade with the Raptors to get that 6th year. And since the Raptors just lost Bosh for nothing, they will take anything from the Bulls for the 6th year. The Bulls could offer anything from Deng or next year's first round pick or a 2nd round pick, and the Raptors will take it because if they don't, they get nothing for Bosh. The Bulls don't have to give up Noah, they don't have to give up anything, once Bosh signs with his new team, the Raptors have no more leverage and will take anything for the 6th year.

If you still disagree, go ask Doug, he seems to be the only one of the podcasters that really knows what he is talking about. Mark has been disagreeing with you about this, but his reason being that the Raptors would want Kirk is Special person. No one wants Kirk, for good reasons, I am 100% behind everything you have ever said on the podcast about him.

Go find some previous sign in trades where the player was an unrestricted free agent and you will see what I mean. I sure you remember last year when your hero and man crush, Gordon, was signed by the Pistons, after it was announced they signed him, Doug brought up the fact that we could still try to get a 2nd round pick from the Pistons in a sign in trade so the Ben could get his 6th year on the contract. Of course it never happened, probably because Bulls management didn't want to help Gordon and the Pistons out.

Now this doesn't mean we are getting Bosh, I'm just saying that the only thing that matters, is if Bosh wants to sign here or not. That goes the same for every other free agent.

So please Fred, find a new argument as to why you think we aren't going to land a free agent.

WELCOME TO THE MESSAGE BOARD!

 

[Fred]

JeffH1215 wrote:

So Fred, this is how it works, Chris Bosh gets to choose which team he wants to go to, not the Raptors. Now if the team doesn't have cap space then they NEED to do a sign in trade and NEED good assets or the Raptors can say no. If the team does have the cap space, Da Bulls, then he can sign with them without a sign a trade. Then the Bulls can workout a sign in trade with the Raptors to get that 6th year. And since the Raptors just lost Bosh for nothing, they will take anything from the Bulls for the 6th year. The Bulls could offer anything from Deng or next year's first round pick or a 2nd round pick, and the Raptors will take it because if they don't, they get nothing for Bosh. The Bulls don't have to give up Noah, they don't have to give up anything, once Bosh signs with his new team, the Raptors have no more leverage and will take anything for the 6th year.

If you still disagree, go ask Doug, he seems to be the only one of the podcasters that really knows what he is talking about. Mark has been disagreeing with you about this, but his reason being that the Raptors would want Kirk is Special person. No one wants Kirk, for good reasons, I am 100% behind everything you have ever said on the podcast about him.

Go find some previous sign in trades where the player was an unrestricted free agent and you will see what I mean. I sure you remember last year when your hero and man crush, Gordon, was signed by the Pistons, after it was announced they signed him, Doug brought up the fact that we could still try to get a 2nd round pick from the Pistons in a sign in trade so the Ben could get his 6th year on the contract. Of course it never happened, probably because Bulls management didn't want to help Gordon and the Pistons out.

Now this doesn't mean we are getting Bosh, I'm just saying that the only thing that matters, is if Bosh wants to sign here or not. That goes the same for every other free agent.

So please Fred, find a new argument as to why you think we aren't going to land a free agent.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baske...gns-chris-bosh-is-leaving-toronto-this-summer

I really haven't disagreed with anything you've said here. My whole point all along is that other teams have more assets to complete a sign and trade, and many of those teams are just as attractive, if not more so, to Chris Bosh. Of course, my argument has always assumed that Bosh would agree to go to those teams. Why not the Lakers? And the contracts of certain valuable players like Bynum and/or Gasol could be made in a sign and trade with the Lakers. Would Bosh prefer the Lakers over Chicago, even when the Lakers fall short of the title this year? I'd say yes. I don't recall him showing up to watch Rose and Noah against the Cavs.

How about Houston? Darryl Morey, Houston GM: "I actually think they’ll all (elite free agents) go sign-and-trade."

The whole point of my argument is that the vast majority of Bulls fans have been talking for the past year about signing one or more of these guys outright, without moving assets in a sign and trade. It won't happen. And even if we Bosh happens to chose us over another team, Toronto won't take an overpaid Deng or Hirnich in return. Those players aren't assests. Their contracts make them liabilities.

 

[Fred]

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baske...gns-chris-bosh-is-leaving-toronto-this-summer

By the way, check out that poll in the bottom right of the Toronto paper, "Do you hope the Raptors re-sign Chris Bosh?" Click one. The results are interesting.

 

[Fred]

And by the way, it was Mark who posted the show with "lose" misspelled as "loose". And then swore at me when I politely told him so.

 

[anorexorcist]

what i've been really surprised on your shows that you guys have completely missing is the possibility of the Bulls creating a traded player exception (TPE) to then trade to Toronto in a package for Bosh.

I.e.

Bosh (19 or 20 M)

for

Taj (1M)
Johnson (1.5M)
Charlotte Pick
TPE (remainder of the difference - 17.5 approx)

If, as I'm thinking is right, Toronto if they decide they are losing Bosh (which they in all likelihood are), then they will not want to throw on another long term salary to their books. they already have 3 bad contracts in turkoglu, calderon, and bargnani. that's why I don't see the bynum thing happening either.

Maybe I'm just optimistic, but I think the raptors WOULD prefer to get the TPE and then essentially use it to steal a good player from a cost cutting team either that same summer or later on down the road.

Especially with 2011 CBA coming up, the Raptors will be in an excellent position, and a TPE will be a HUGE bargaining chip for them. Bigger, I'd say, than any crap Houston or even LA could give them back in a Bosh deal. As a Suns blog put it, a team that gets a TPE:

...ends up with this giant pool of money that they can use to acquire players from teams looking to dump salary ahead of 2011 CBA or to avoid paying the luxury tax next year.

That is huge. That's why you guys need to think about this possibility before so boldly eliminating the possibility of an S&T. It hasn't been done very often in blockbuster deals, but considering the frenzy that's going to be next year's trading deadline, I think the Raptors would be very well off with that. It will be tough to sell to fans, but if they can flip it over into a good player by February, it works out.

 

[dougthonus]

There is ultimately no concrete answer to this question, so I wouldn't pretend there is.

If Bosh plays absolute hard ball and is willing to leave on a five year deal, then the Raptors have little leverage in a S&T.

If Bosh is insistent on getting his 6th year and is willing to change his destination to a few teams based on who will give it to him then Toronto has a lot of leverage and will get a decent return.

All in all, how this plays out depends primarily on how badly Bosh wants the money and how adamant he is about playing for whatever team he picks out vs having a choice of several teams.

I could make the case for it going either way. I think it's more likely that Bosh has a firm destination in mind and that Toronto won't have as much leverage, but I wouldn't say it's a definite.

 

[clonetrooper264]

Fred wrote:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baske...gns-chris-bosh-is-leaving-toronto-this-summer

By the way, check out that poll in the bottom right of the Toronto paper, "Do you hope the Raptors re-sign Chris Bosh?" Click one. The results are interesting.

Goodness...the fans either want Bosh out or are apathetic. Excellent news for us...if the fan base is reflective of management anyway (which it probably isn't) But I guess Bosh isn't that well liked in Toronto. He should come here...he would be loved.

 

[Kush77]

The Bulls wouldn't have to give up a player like Noah in a S&T to get Bosh because they have the cap space. That's true.
It depends on Toronto and what they would want. I think the Kenyon Martin trade to Denver was like this, where NJ just got 3 1st round picks and they sent Martin to Denver with a big new contract. I was wondering how that happened because I was in the midset of "you have to match salaries." but if a team has space you can just swap draft picks for a player and take on his salary. I can't see it happening though.

If I were Tor. I would want something of value in return for Bosh, like Noah. If the Bulls didn't want to do it then I would tell Bosh go sign with someone outright and take 30 mil less, it's on you.

I don't think Toronto is going to do other teams any favors and deliver Bosh for some garbage players or contracts. What do the Raps have to lose? They've missed the postseason for three straight year with Bosh.

If Toronto wants Noah for Bosh then they should do it. But we have to what happens. Maybe they would take Hinrich. His deal isn't awful. He's overpaid, but far worse contracts have been dealt.

 

[??? ??????]

Toronto really doesn't have much leverage in this situation. It's not like with Curry and Crawford, where there wasn't any free agent money left to go around. In cases like those, the taem trading the players have a lot of leverage.

The Raptors would be foolish to pass up on the opportunity for an $18 million trade exception, or whatever they will get for trading Bosh for nothing.

They can then spend their cap space to bring in a player, and then use the trade exception to bring in another player.

That trade exception could be huge in rebuilding their team in the post-Bosh era.

 

[TheStig]

I think you are underestimating how much Bosh wants the extra $30 mill. Otherwise he wouldn't make a s&t a priority. It all comes down to Bosh and what he wants to do.

 

[Kush77]

??? ?????? wrote:

Toronto really doesn't have much leverage in this situation. It's not like with Curry and Crawford, where there wasn't any free agent money left to go around. In cases like those, the taem trading the players have a lot of leverage.

The Raptors would be foolish to pass up on the opportunity for an $18 million trade exception, or whatever they will get for trading Bosh for nothing.

They can then spend their cap space to bring in a player, and then use the trade exception to bring in another player.

That trade exception could be huge in rebuilding their team in the post-Bosh era.

Assuming Toronto actually wants to spend that much. I doubt it considering they are stuck paying Turkeyglue all his money.

They gave Andrea Bargnani an extension, Calderon makes a good amount of money. I can't see Toronto spending more money, even if they get a trade exception, on a team that has missed the playoffs three straight years.

If you weren't good enough to make the playoffs with Bosh, why would you spend more money on a guy like David Lee? I think it's safe to say none of the big FAs are going to Toronto.

So I think the Raps should play hard ball on the S&T. I would want something of value, that's pretty cheap (like Noah 10/11 contact year) and some draft picks in return. If the Bulls, or anyone else doesn't want to do it, I'd tell Bosh to walk and take 30 million less somewhere else.

 

[TheStig]

Kush, I agree. I don't think its easy for the franchise to sell a S&T to the fans. Maybe to fans like us but not the everyday fan. If I were the Raptors, on the first fay of FA, I offer him a full max deal and make sure it hits the papers, after that, you have covered your ass. Its easy to point out Bosh didn't want to come back. And then knowing Bosh wants the big bucks, I play hard ball. Signing a guy to a big deal to go with a core thats going no where is just gonna make matters worse.

 

[dougthonus]

Kush77 wrote:

If I were Tor. I would want something of value in return for Bosh, like Noah. If the Bulls didn't want to do it then I would tell Bosh go sign with someone outright and take 30 mil less, it's on you.

I don't think Toronto is going to do other teams any favors and deliver Bosh for some garbage players or contracts. What do the Raps have to lose? They've missed the postseason for three straight year with Bosh.

If Toronto wants Noah for Bosh then they should do it. But we have to what happens. Maybe they would take Hinrich. His deal isn't awful. He's overpaid, but far worse contracts have been dealt.

I don't think Toronto takes Hinrich, as you said, they have no incentive to take any bad deals back, so why would they.

However, they do have an incentive to do a trade for little value. What if the Bulls just offer up their 1st round pick or the Charlotte first round pick. If you can get that or nothing, you are losing something by not taking it.

You also get a 16.5 million dollar trade exception which you can use to make a pretty valuable trade later. As an example, Seattle/Oklahoma City turned an 8 million dollar trade exception into 2 1st round draft picks a couple years ago by taking on Kurt Thomas, then traded Kurt Thomas later for another 1st round pick.

If Toronto knows Bosh is leaving they still have a lot of incentive to turn this situation into something positive for themselves even if it's not a ton of value. It's worth remembering that the vast majority of the extra money Bosh is getting comes in an extra year of salary.

He may get the vast majority of that money on a new contract anyway, and he may feel pretty confident about his ability to do that.

 

[mlewinth]

I have a sneaking suspicion that we will do something huge on draft day. My guess is we try to continue to shread salary and try to nab one of these FA's via trade. If we can secure a huge talent on draft day and preserve cap space in anyway, we are gold.

 

[TheStig]

mlewinth wrote:

I have a sneaking suspicion that we will do something huge on draft day. My guess is we try to continue to shread salary and try to nab one of these FA's via trade. If we can secure a huge talent on draft day and preserve cap space in anyway, we are gold.

You can't trade for any of the fas on draft day. The only way to shed salary on draft day is trading someone to a team with cap space ie deng or kirk getting traded for a second round pick. Which no team is gonna take on that much money. Now you might be able to dump someone like JJ but I don't see the point in that, I'd rather see if he develops.

 

[clonetrooper264]

IMO the reason the Raptors don't take Hinrich is not because of his salary, but rather because they already have Calderone and Jack at the point and DeRozan developing at the 2. There's really no point to adding Hinrich for them just from a player standpoint.