IST: Cardinals vs Cubs

[bamainatlanta]

Not advocating for a trade but who fetches more--Russell or Happ in a trade?

 

[beckdawg]

Not advocating for a trade but who fetches more--Russell or Happ in a trade?

Russell easily IMO. It's easy to forget Russell is only 6 months older than Happ. But people have different expectations on Russell than they do on hap as a hitter because Russell has been in the majors longer. Plus Russell's glove is probably top 3 in baseball at ss.

 

[chibears55]

Not advocating for a trade but who fetches more--Russell or Happ in a trade?

Russell because he a proven starting defensive SS..

Happ still dont have a set position

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[TL1961]

Wilson was never going to beat him to the bag. You put it in the back pocket. You got a lead. I would bet he would say the same after the game. I dont dislike our aggressiveness, but I think he knows he should have read it a little better.

I agree. Should have settled for one. He tried to stop too late. Absolutely settle for one, especially with a runner on. (I don't recall whether it was in the 8th or 9th)

 

[TL1961]

Russell easily IMO. It's easy to forget Russell is only 6 months older than Happ. But people have different expectations on Russell than they do on hap as a hitter because Russell has been in the majors longer. Plus Russell's glove is probably top 3 in baseball at ss.

Agreed. Trading Russell would be a big mistake.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

Russell because he a proven starting defensive SS..

Happ still dont have a set position

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I don’t disagree with your conclusion but your premise is wrong. Teams aren’t looking for set positions they want players that play multiple positions. San Diego wanted Mejia for Hand because he can catch, play 1B, 3B and was starting to learn the OF for Cleveland. Playing one position decreases your value and instead means you have to truly excel at that position to have premium value. Versatility is far more valuable.

 

[beckdawg]

I don’t disagree with your conclusion but your premise is wrong. Teams aren’t looking for set positions they want players that play multiple positions. San Diego wanted Mejia for Hand because he can catch, play 1B, 3B and was starting to learn the OF for Cleveland. Playing one position decreases your value and instead means you have to truly excel at that position to have premium value. Versatility is far more valuable.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I mean sure versatility is great and never a bad thing but I think what teams want most is superior defenders. All other things being equal you'll take a gold glove type guy at 1 position over a versatile player unless you're talking about a bench guy where then I can see more of a utility feel mattering. I think the reason it seems like teams want more versatility is at least in my opinion it doesn't feel like the overall quality of defenders is as good in the past. I'm thinking that may have more to do with offense becoming such a bigger importance than 80's ball where you could throw out a .230 SS so long as he played great defense.

So given that you end up with a lot of tweener types who aren't great at one position. That's basically Happ in a nutshell. He's not your prototypical hitter for a corner OF. He's ok defensively at 2B but his range isn't great. His arm is a bit underwhelming for 3B. And he's ok in CF but not really elite. But his bat is good enough you find a way to put him in the line up.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

I'm not sure I agree with this. I mean sure versatility is great and never a bad thing but I think what teams want most is superior defenders. All other things being equal you'll take a gold glove type guy at 1 position over a versatile player unless you're talking about a bench guy where then I can see more of a utility feel mattering. I think the reason it seems like teams want more versatility is at least in my opinion it doesn't feel like the overall quality of defenders is as good in the past. I'm thinking that may have more to do with offense becoming such a bigger importance than 80's ball where you could throw out a .230 SS so long as he played great defense.

So given that you end up with a lot of tweener types who aren't great at one position. That's basically Happ in a nutshell. He's not your prototypical hitter for a corner OF. He's ok defensively at 2B but his range isn't great. His arm is a bit underwhelming for 3B. And he's ok in CF but not really elite. But his bat is good enough you find a way to put him in the line up.

That’s exactly what I said though. If you’re not versatile your value is either made up by superior offense or, as you say, top notch defense. Barring those things, which is the case which applies to about 80% of players, value lies in versatility. Teams are not terribly likely to give up their defensive studs so you ask for guys with positional flexibility. The analogy is if you’re buying a house and every one you look at is missing the number one thing on your wishlist, but then you find one with six things lower down your list that’s probably the one you buy.

 

[chibears55]

I don’t disagree with your conclusion but your premise is wrong. Teams aren’t looking for set positions they want players that play multiple positions. San Diego wanted Mejia for Hand because he can catch, play 1B, 3B and was starting to learn the OF for Cleveland. Playing one position decreases your value and instead means you have to truly excel at that position to have premium value. Versatility is far more valuable.

Disagree a bit here...
Offense being somewhat equal...

If my choice is between a potential GG everyday player at 1 position
Or
An average to below average defender at multiple positions bench guy

Im taking the everyday player



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[beckdawg]

That’s exactly what I said though. If you’re not versatile your value is either made up by superior offense or, as you say, top notch defense. Barring those things, which is the case which applies to about 80% of players, value lies in versatility. Teams are not terribly likely to give up their defensive studs so you ask for guys with positional flexibility. The analogy is if you’re buying a house and every one you look at is missing the number one thing on your wishlist, but then you find one with six things lower down your list that’s probably the one you buy.

My mistake then. I thought you were suggesting you'd rather a versatile player before someone solid at one position. That's what I disagreed with though honestly outside of CF, C, SS I'm not sure how much defense matters. Think you could argue maybe a strong arm RF is a big deal. And I suppose maybe a great 3B is a big deal but Bryant's not exactly scott rolen out there and looks fine.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

Disagree a bit here...
Offense being somewhat equal...

If my choice is between a potential GG everyday player at 1 position
Or
An average to below average defender at multiple positions bench guy

Im taking the everyday player



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What if you simply can’t acquire the best talent though? Do you look for the next notch down or do you then look at versatility? Tampa Bay’s successful experiment with “openers” is a perfect example. They simply couldn’t acquire enough pitching talent so they turned the question on its head and found a way to win ballgames. If the league expands to 32 teams, as the commissioner promises, there will be even less talent so out of the box thinking and positional flexibility will be even more valuable.

 

[chibears55]

What if you simply can’t acquire the best talent though? Do you look for the next notch down or do you then look at versatility? Tampa Bay’s successful experiment with “openers” is a perfect example. They simply couldn’t acquire enough pitching talent so they turned the question on its head and found a way to win ballgames. If the league expands to 32 teams, as the commissioner promises, there will be even less talent so out of the box thinking and positional flexibility will be even more valuable.

The guy question was who had more trade value between Russell and Happ..

Youre going onto a whole other topic..lol

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[TC in Mississippi]

The guy question was who had more trade value between Russell and Happ..

Youre going onto a whole other topic..lol

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It’s all the same topic. I said your conclusion was right, Russell is more valuable, but that’s in a vacuum. Teams may ask for a guy like that but get the phone hung up on the a lot. If the premium is unavailable you don’t look at the sub-premium, you find different criteria. “You can’t always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you get what you need.

 

[chibears55]

It’s all the same topic. I said your conclusion was right, Russell is more valuable, but that’s in a vacuum. Teams may ask for a guy like that but get the phone hung up on the a lot. If the premium is unavailable you don’t look at the sub-premium, you find different criteria. “You can’t always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you get what you need.

As far as being hung up on, it depends on the return and if they have depth to replace him..

Mets offer DeGrom and ask for Russell as the main piece..
Im not hanging up because the return fits, and i got depth at SS with Baez to finish out the year..


Of course it depends on the need
Im not going to take the SS if i dont need one..
Ill take the utility player if that fits my need..



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[CSF77]

I think that you have to look at Happ’s 40% SO rate and that is his glaring hole. Now he is getting better but when teams are looking at trades that is the sticking point.

Happ really doesn’t bring back anything by himself as is. D side doesn’t play catcher or SS. Those are premium positions where the glove carries weight.

So that puts his weight on his bat. SH adds value to that as does his walk rate. But his SO’s diminish that value.

To be honest I believe Cartiani holds more trade value right now than Happ.

 

[anotheridiot]

As far as being hung up on, it depends on the return and if they have depth to replace him..

Mets offer DeGrom and ask for Russell as the main piece..
Im not hanging up because the return fits, and i got depth at SS with Baez to finish out the year..


Of course it depends on the need
Im not going to take the SS if i dont need one..
Ill take the utility player if that fits my need..



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Len Kasper has said many times that he expects Russell to eventually be a MVP candidate. Yesterday he was playing side guy to Pat Hughes, bring up so many highlight plays he made against the Cardinals. Its odd, the Machado sweepstakes is over, and he is still defending Russell for staying on this team.

The problem is, the backup to Baez at Shortstop will be Zobrist. I think your defensive RF goes to half of either Russell or Javy. The boy Nico that people were considering "fast tracking" pulled ligaments in his arm diving for a ball and is out til spring training.

 

[Parade_Rain]

To be honest I believe Cartiani holds more trade value right now than Happ.

Agreed. I think that's why he is up with the team currently as a showcase.

Disclaimer: I could be wrong.

 

[Diehardfan]

I think that you have to look at Happ’s 40% SO rate and that is his glaring hole. Now he is getting better but when teams are looking at trades that is the sticking point.

Happ really doesn’t bring back anything by himself as is. D side doesn’t play catcher or SS. Those are premium positions where the glove carries weight.

So that puts his weight on his bat. SH adds value to that as does his walk rate. But his SO’s diminish that value.

To be honest I believe Cartiani holds more trade value right now than Happ.

Happ's got a huge hole on low, inside pitches much like Baez had on low outside pitches. It's hurting him this year particularly with the K's. I agree with u on Caratini. Catcher is one of the "prime" positions where IQ and defense are a premium....if you can find one that can hit, it's almost like a bonus. Parade might be onto something with Caratini being showcased. Joe's been playing him a lot lately.

 

[chibears55]

Len Kasper has said many times that he expects Russell to eventually be a MVP candidate. Yesterday he was playing side guy to Pat Hughes, bring up so many highlight plays he made against the Cardinals. Its odd, the Machado sweepstakes is over, and he is still defending Russell for staying on this team.

The problem is, the backup to Baez at Shortstop will be Zobrist. I think your defensive RF goes to half of either Russell or Javy. The boy Nico that people were considering "fast tracking" pulled ligaments in his arm diving for a ball and is out til spring training.

David Bote says hello...

https://twitter.com/IowaCubs/status/1020368889224613888?s=19

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[CSF77]

David Bote says hello...

https://twitter.com/IowaCubs/status/1020368889224613888?s=19

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He came up as a SS. Not too shocking. I would rather have him than Happ if I had to choose. Better player.