IST: Cubs @ Cards

[anotheridiot]

The irony of this is that if the cubs didn't sign Heyward they would have started a guy you hate possibly as much if not more in Soler in RF.

Its really not the case, I think Bryant would have gotten more starts in Right field, even if they did not sign Fowler for center and Heyward was there. You need a fearful power corner outfield bat, if Heyward is going to be all D, then he should be in center next year. Bryants college coach says Left is his best position, but so many draft gurus thought Bryant would eventually just be a corner outfielder, and with a guy like Javy Machado Baez here, and Christian Villanueva as good as a glove at third, I just hope Stella is long gone this off season. We still have Happ flying thru the system to push Zo to a corner outfielder.

 

[beckdawg]

Its really not the case, I think Bryant would have gotten more starts in Right field, even if they did not sign Fowler for center and Heyward was there. You need a fearful power corner outfield bat, if Heyward is going to be all D, then he should be in center next year. Bryants college coach says Left is his best position, but so many draft gurus thought Bryant would eventually just be a corner outfielder, and with a guy like Javy Machado Baez here, and Christian Villanueva as good as a glove at third, I just hope Stella is long gone this off season. We still have Happ flying thru the system to push Zo to a corner outfielder.

What? If we assume the season plays out the same minus Heyward, then Bryant would still have seen much as much time in the OF but you'd essentially just shift Soler over to LF. But Soler still plays more than he did to start the year. I mean seriously, go back and look at the way Maddon structured the line up before Soler went down to injury. he played as much if not more than Baez did.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

Again, I call bs on those defensive metrics. Having watched EVERY GAME he has not had a lot of tough balls to field. Nothing where he has had to dive into gaps, go up against the ivy, charge the ball, etc. THe Cubs infielders have such great range they get to those balls that the OFs would have to charge/dive. I havent seen the spectacular play that he is famous for

And I also dont buy the notion he hasnt had time to change his batting stroke. He has endless access to batting practice and hitting machines and coaches and psychologists yet everyone defaults to he "needs till next sprig to figure it out". The mLB scouts have it right when they say he has the worst swing in MLB. In a key playoff situation I belive a lot of people would prefer to see some of the Cubs pitchers pinch hitting for this slug in a key moment. At least they can get the ball out of the infield

So you're telling me that if Soler were the RF, or even Zobrist, that the Cubs would still be the best defensive team in MLB? If so you're high.

Scouts have never liked Heyward's swing and yet he was effective for 6 years and was a 6 WAR player as recently as last year. This year his swing is even worse. Again you look at his career numbers and this year screams outlier as loudly as possible. I can't defend the guys stats this year because, as I said before, they are indefensible, but going back to his high school days everyone says this kid is a special talent and one of the hardest workers you'll ever find. Add that to what looks like a clear statistical outlier of a year and I'm pretty certain he isn't going to fall off the map at 26.

 

[Omeletpants]

So you're telling me that if Soler were the RF, or even Zobrist, that the Cubs would still be the best defensive team in MLB? If so you're high.

Scouts have never liked Heyward's swing and yet he was effective for 6 years and was a 6 WAR player as recently as last year. This year his swing is even worse. Again you look at his career numbers and this year screams outlier as loudly as possible. I can't defend the guys stats this year because, as I said before, they are indefensible, but going back to his high school days everyone says this kid is a special talent and one of the hardest workers you'll ever find. Add that to what looks like a clear statistical outlier of a year and I'm pretty certain he isn't going to fall off the map at 26.

What has Heyward done this year that Zoberist, Bryant or Sczycr couldnt do? Nothing cause there just havent been a lot of tough plays in RF this year.

If he hasnt fixed his swing in the last 5 months there is no reason to beleive he will. If he really wanted to help he would take all those pitches and send them to left field. But no, he has to be the hero and try to drive everything even when they are off the plate. Instead he would rather hit those weak grounders to second base

Here is a scenario for you to contemplate: 1 out bottom of the 9th in game seven. Man on first and Heyward is up. Wonder what millions of Cubs fan expect to happen?

 

[fatbeard]

What has Heyward done this year that Zoberist, Bryant or Sczycr couldnt do?

Play Gold Glove-level defense in RF. Heyward is far and away the best RF in the NL this year:

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...6&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

If he hasnt fixed his swing in the last 5 months there is no reason to beleive he will.

There's six years of evidence indicating Heyward's offensive problems are an outlier.

 

[cubsmann]

This is my worst nightmare. Game on the line with Heyward coming up. Don't you think Maddon would pinch hit for him if he was his usual 0-3 in the game? If he didn't he is a terrible manager. That's why I don't think Heyward is going to start all the games in this post season. The Cubs clearly play better without him. I wish they could ****** the guy and get rid of his obscene $184M contract. There's no reason to think he will be better next year. The guy tries to pull everything and when he has been successful he has gone with the outside pitch and drive it into left field. Why is no one helping this guy get his swing on track? He clearly dips his head and tries to pull even outside pitches and anyone who has ever played baseball knows that if you do that you're going to hit a weak ass ground ball to the second baseman. UGH!!

 

[Diehardfan]

Play Gold Glove-level defense in RF. Heyward is far and away the best RF in the NL this year:

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...6&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0



There's six years of evidence indicating Heyward's offensive problems are an outlier.

Don't waste your energy on him. 41 games over .500, locking up the division with 3 weeks left and generally dominating the National League isn't good enough for him. I guess he thinks if Soler was a better defender, Heyward hit better or if Bryant didn't have a "loopy swing"...the Cubs would win 150 games.

He is the ultimate grumpy old man that is never happy unless he has something or someone to ***** about.

 

[anotheridiot]

This is my worst nightmare. Game on the line with Heyward coming up. Don't you think Maddon would pinch hit for him if he was his usual 0-3 in the game? If he didn't he is a terrible manager. That's why I don't think Heyward is going to start all the games in this post season. The Cubs clearly play better without him. I wish they could ****** the guy and get rid of his obscene $184M contract. There's no reason to think he will be better next year. The guy tries to pull everything and when he has been successful he has gone with the outside pitch and drive it into left field. Why is no one helping this guy get his swing on track? He clearly dips his head and tries to pull even outside pitches and anyone who has ever played baseball knows that if you do that you're going to hit a weak ass ground ball to the second baseman. UGH!!

just go back to Soriano. He knew his swing, he knew how to fix it, he didnt listen to anybody. Last 180 million dollar man we had. Sorianos prowess was batspeed, with the 36" 36 ounce bat. Later in his career, dropping a few ounces to get more hits instead of home runs would have helped.

I gotta think that the verbage is different with a Baez or Russell than a Heyward, but nobody, I mean nobody thought Russell would put up the Home run and RBI numbers they expected from Heyward.

Even if Heyward blows next year, starts to hit in his third year, we still have the opt out on our side, but if he blows the next two, he is here for good.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

What has Heyward done this year that Zoberist, Bryant or Sczycr couldnt do? Nothing cause there just havent been a lot of tough plays in RF this year.

If he hasnt fixed his swing in the last 5 months there is no reason to beleive he will. If he really wanted to help he would take all those pitches and send them to left field. But no, he has to be the hero and try to drive everything even when they are off the plate. Instead he would rather hit those weak grounders to second base

Here is a scenario for you to contemplate: 1 out bottom of the 9th in game seven. Man on first and Heyward is up. Wonder what millions of Cubs fan expect to happen?

Almost your entire argument has been about emotion and subjective observations, not about metrics. I owe Brett a sincere apology. I thought he was the most difficult poster on this forum to argue with but I was 100% wrong. It's you.

 

[TC in Mississippi]

This is my worst nightmare. Game on the line with Heyward coming up. Don't you think Maddon would pinch hit for him if he was his usual 0-3 in the game? If he didn't he is a terrible manager. That's why I don't think Heyward is going to start all the games in this post season. The Cubs clearly play better without him. I wish they could ****** the guy and get rid of his obscene $184M contract. There's no reason to think he will be better next year. The guy tries to pull everything and when he has been successful he has gone with the outside pitch and drive it into left field. Why is no one helping this guy get his swing on track? He clearly dips his head and tries to pull even outside pitches and anyone who has ever played baseball knows that if you do that you're going to hit a weak ass ground ball to the second baseman. UGH!!

OK, let's look at that. If there is no reason to believe he;s going to get better at the plate why was he so much better before? Last year he slashed .293/.359/.439 with a .346 wOBA, the year before .271/.351/.384 with a .329 wOBA and in 2013 .254/.349/.427 with a .344 wOBA. In those 3 years he compiled a total WAR of 14.5 or an average of 4.8 WAR/year. This year he's going to have a WAR of about 1.1 with most of the dropoff in his offense numbers. How many 26 year olds can you find that fall off the map like that? Especially ones who everyone attests to their character and work ethic like they do for Heyward? It's called an outlier folks.

 

[Omeletpants]

The irony of this is that if the cubs didn't sign Heyward they would have started a guy you hate possibly as much if not more in Soler in RF.

Bad is bad. This is a championship caliber team that deserves better than average players at each position. In Soler and 4-3 we have worse than average. Your low standards are on you, not me

 

[Omeletpants]

Don't waste your energy on him. 41 games over .500, locking up the division with 3 weeks left and generally dominating the National League isn't good enough for him. I guess he thinks if Soler was a better defender, Heyward hit better or if Bryant didn't have a "loopy swing"...the Cubs would win 150 games.

He is the ultimate grumpy old man that is never happy unless he has something or someone to ***** about.

But when you complain about the team and you do, then it's OK? That's why you have shit for brains

 

[Omeletpants]

Almost your entire argument has been about emotion and subjective observations, not about metrics. I owe Brett a sincere apology. I thought he was the most difficult poster on this forum to argue with but I was 100% wrong. It's you.

Metrics don't always explain everything. Heywards may have great numbers but the eye test is that he didnt have many tough chances during the year. A big part of that has been the great Cubs pitching. The other part is the great overlap coverage by the Cubs infielders and the last factor is chance where he didnt have the gappers or plays in front of him to challenge his glove. Any average RF could have played RF for the Cubs this year with similar results

 

[DrGonzo]

I expect Maddon will sit Heyward at least a couple of times in the playoffs, maybe bring him in off the bench for defense to protect a lead. His contract won't protect his spot in the lineup with the pennant on the line.

Sent from deez nutz.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Don't waste your energy on him. 41 games over .500, locking up the division with 3 weeks left and generally dominating the National League isn't good enough for him. I guess he thinks if Soler was a better defender, Heyward hit better or if Bryant didn't have a "loopy swing"...the Cubs would win 150 games.

He is the ultimate grumpy old man that is never happy unless he has something or someone to ***** about.

You would be grumpy like Poopypants, too, if the most fun part of your day involved taking a crap in your Depends?

 

[TC in Mississippi]

I expect Maddon will sit Heyward at least a couple of times in the playoffs, maybe bring him in off the bench for defense to protect a lead. His contract won't protect his spot in the lineup with the pennant on the line.

Sent from deez nutz.

Maddon needs to put his best lineup out there period. Absolutely Heyward should sit unless there is data suggesting a very favorable matchup. Otherwise he's relegated to defensive replacement. That's this year, I just don't believe that will always be the case.

 

[Omeletpants]

You would be grumpy like Poopypants, too, if the most fun part of your day involved taking a crap in your Depends?

This is exactly why you are the worst poster on this forum. You are a sycophant that panders for the approval of others to support your position. This is what teenagers and immature minds do

 

[Diehardfan]

But when you complain about the team and you do, then it's OK? That's why you have shit for brains

Bullshit. I don't single out individual ball players....just you, sweetpants.

So, please don't force me to make you look like a fool...again. It's just so easy, it gets boring.

 

[beckdawg]

This is my worst nightmare. Game on the line with Heyward coming up. Don't you think Maddon would pinch hit for him if he was his usual 0-3 in the game? If he didn't he is a terrible manager. That's why I don't think Heyward is going to start all the games in this post season. The Cubs clearly play better without him. I wish they could ****** the guy and get rid of his obscene $184M contract. There's no reason to think he will be better next year. The guy tries to pull everything and when he has been successful he has gone with the outside pitch and drive it into left field. Why is no one helping this guy get his swing on track? He clearly dips his head and tries to pull even outside pitches and anyone who has ever played baseball knows that if you do that you're going to hit a weak ass ground ball to the second baseman. UGH!!

This is the problem with fans. Games never rest with one play. Sure there's occurrences such as the one you suggest that happen but if you lose that game it's not the fault of the batter in that situation. It's akin to blaming one hand of blackjack or poker for losing money. You lose games like that because of your failure in that situation but also every situation before it. I have mentioned this before but the reason you see the cubs this season losing a lot of close games and often winning in blow outs is because great teams are able to capitalize on those situations more often than the rest of the league.

That's not to say that Heyward hasn't struggled and that those struggles haven't cost the cubs. But, basically every team has a weakness. Heyward is a bit weird because of his huge contract and the fact that many of the best players aren't making much. So, it's slightly different but every team has someone who drags them down. If the cubs are as good as we think they are, they will not put themselves in the situation you describe enough to matter. And if they do then they were never as good as we thought to begin with.

 

[beckdawg]

the eye test is that he didnt have many tough chances during the year.

The entire reason you use non-subjective measures is it is entirely possible for a good defender to make the difficult play look routine. For example, take the catch he had in Hendricks' last start where he went into the stands. The average MLB RF doesn't make that play. And sure that's not a huge play where the cubs lose multiple runs but an out is an out. He routinely makes plays like that which add outs. Those outs are fewer pitches for a pitcher.

In other words, it's not always about the spectacular catch. Making every routine play is a big deal. Making most difficult but not spectacular plays is a big deal.